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Of Freedom of the Will
- Thread starter agedman
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But then of which of the OP statements would one ascribe?
If there must be an intervention by God, then either one subscribes to some manner of preceding or prevenient grace or one must ascribe that God instills a new will into that person.
Either way, there is no true freedom of the human will if one accepts that which you posted in 2 Thessalonians and Romans.
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
I don't think a child desiring to go to the zoo is concerned about "whose will is it that I should go to the zoo today"?
But puts her hand in Daddy's hand and they both exercise their joint will and go see the lions and tigers.
I don't think a child desiring to go to the zoo is concerned about "whose will is it that I should go to the zoo today"?
But puts her hand in Daddy's hand and they both exercise their joint will and go see the lions and tigers.
I made a conscious choice to repent of my sins & come to JESUS in belief and submission. But i had to have the word of God preached to me first. That got me reading the Bible more, & listening to more preaching until it sank into me that I WAS LOST & on my way to hell. I heard from God's word what I had to do to be saved, & I did it!
I don't believe God created anyone for the specific purpose of populating hell. A key Scripture is
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The more I studied Scripture, reading eleven different English Bible versions, I was convinced that if God had wanted robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience, He coulda made'em as easily as He made us. I'm also convinced He wants people to love & serve Him because they WANT to, not outta fear or duty. Thus, He gives most people free choice whether to be His or not.
Now, while I don't believe he made anyone specifically to go to hell no matter what, He DID and DOES prevail upon some people for special service to Him. Scriptural examples are Moses, Jeremiah, & Paul. But notice THEY STILL HAD A CHOICE, even though He said the equivalent of "Obey Me or else!" And yes, Jesus even gave Iscariot the choice! He made it known to Judas that He knew about Judas' plot, & said while Judas was present, "Woe to that man by whom I'm betrayed! Better for that man if he'd never been born!"
While i believe everyone is predestinated to one of two places - God's kingdom or gehenna - I don't believe anyone is AUTOMATICALLY predestinated for either place, & that EVERYONE has the chance for salvation.[/COLOR]
I don't believe God created anyone for the specific purpose of populating hell. A key Scripture is
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The more I studied Scripture, reading eleven different English Bible versions, I was convinced that if God had wanted robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience, He coulda made'em as easily as He made us. I'm also convinced He wants people to love & serve Him because they WANT to, not outta fear or duty. Thus, He gives most people free choice whether to be His or not.
Now, while I don't believe he made anyone specifically to go to hell no matter what, He DID and DOES prevail upon some people for special service to Him. Scriptural examples are Moses, Jeremiah, & Paul. But notice THEY STILL HAD A CHOICE, even though He said the equivalent of "Obey Me or else!" And yes, Jesus even gave Iscariot the choice! He made it known to Judas that He knew about Judas' plot, & said while Judas was present, "Woe to that man by whom I'm betrayed! Better for that man if he'd never been born!"
While i believe everyone is predestinated to one of two places - God's kingdom or gehenna - I don't believe anyone is AUTOMATICALLY predestinated for either place, & that EVERYONE has the chance for salvation.[/COLOR]
Lodic
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting discussion. I was just thinking about Romans 8:29-30 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
Since Paul uses both "foreknew" and "predestined", it looks like our eternal destinies are predestined. However, we obviously do have free will, because the Scriptures give us so many warnings and instructions regarding our behavior. Robycop3 makes a good point the examples of Moses, Judas, etc. who had special purpose according to God's will.
Is it possible that the answer is a combination of predestination and free will?
Since Paul uses both "foreknew" and "predestined", it looks like our eternal destinies are predestined. However, we obviously do have free will, because the Scriptures give us so many warnings and instructions regarding our behavior. Robycop3 makes a good point the examples of Moses, Judas, etc. who had special purpose according to God's will.
Is it possible that the answer is a combination of predestination and free will?
IMHO
If, ALL, were not going to need redemption, to be redeemed, including Jeffery Dahmer, there would have been no need for the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Adam choose to eat, maybe one of his children would choose not to eat and who knows, as time goes by maybe as many as the stars in the sky and the sand upon the sea shore would choose not to eat. The eaters would go to hell and the non eaters to heaven.
Maybe Adam did not choose, In the day thou eatest thereof: IMHO, before the foundation of the world he was going to eat and all were going to sin, in hope.
My understanding as to why.
In order that the Son of God be manifested as Son of Man to destroy the devil and his works, the sinner from the beginning, whenever that was. 1 John 3:8 Hebrews 2:14
Redemption is the means the devil and his works are destroyed.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen
“O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
O Hades, where is your victory? 1 Cor 15:55
But the illustration has some "prerequisites" one being that there is someone to put their hand into. Another is that there is a zoo. The other is that the child is capable, knowledgeable, and understanding what a zoo is (or anything).
There is no free expression of the will (more particularly the fallen will) that is not shackled in some manner with at least one prerequisite.
Hear is what one should do according to one's free will, however even that would not save you.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all. Ecc 12:13
Why? Because
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22
Free will question.
Above, faith of Jesus Christ. The next verse 23 begins; And before the coming of the faith; A specific faith? Faith the substance of, Hope.
Now my question/s. Is that substance of hope, faith, the hope of Romans 8:20 and therefore is the all under sin of Gal 3:22 the futility the creation of Rom 8:20 subjected to, not willingly, but by God?
If the answer id yes and it is, how did God do this? Was it not in this manner?
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Gen 2:17
Thou shall not eat of it. The Law
Romans 7:12-14 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, (Of the flesh Gen 2:7) sold under sin.
Is that how God subjected the creation to futility, not willingly? IN HOPE? In the faith of Jesus Christ?
Why? To destroy the sinner from the beginning.
BTW That is why I am OE. Old earth. I believe the darkness that was upon the face of the deep Gen 1:2 was the sinner from the beginning and he had already been exercising his works. In verse 5 God divided the light, that was good, from the darkness, which was already on the earth.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all. Ecc 12:13
Why? Because
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22
Free will question.
Above, faith of Jesus Christ. The next verse 23 begins; And before the coming of the faith; A specific faith? Faith the substance of, Hope.
Now my question/s. Is that substance of hope, faith, the hope of Romans 8:20 and therefore is the all under sin of Gal 3:22 the futility the creation of Rom 8:20 subjected to, not willingly, but by God?
If the answer id yes and it is, how did God do this? Was it not in this manner?
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Gen 2:17
Thou shall not eat of it. The Law
Romans 7:12-14 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, (Of the flesh Gen 2:7) sold under sin.
Is that how God subjected the creation to futility, not willingly? IN HOPE? In the faith of Jesus Christ?
Why? To destroy the sinner from the beginning.
BTW That is why I am OE. Old earth. I believe the darkness that was upon the face of the deep Gen 1:2 was the sinner from the beginning and he had already been exercising his works. In verse 5 God divided the light, that was good, from the darkness, which was already on the earth.
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
My thoughts, for they are worth, not much.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
As a little child. shall not receive the kingdom of God
Romans states that actually hearing the word of Christ brings faith/belief. That the expression of such faith/belief is confirmation of the change having taken place in the heart- salvation.
That you chose to repent was not from the desire of the fallen nature, but because God had placed faith in your heart. "The goodness of God leads to repentance" is in the same Scriptures as "it (faith) is a gift of God."
Good testimony!
There are some who do, and in my humanity I do not, either.
What I do know is that God selects and why He would ever select me I do not know - but am eternally thankful.
You did good, until that last sentence.
John 1 states that only to certain few does God grant the authority to become His own.
But did Judas have a choice about being born?
Human kind cannot choose righteousness. The best they may do is choose to do right.
It is God who grants the gift of righteousness not based upon any human ability, will, or freedom of choice. Rather, upon that core change in the heart we see as belief / faith.
Does not John 3 state that the unbeliever is "condemned already?"
All are "condemned already" unless the goodness of God grants to a few that faith/belief, and all those that do believe have eternal life.
John 3:16 "Whosoever" is not an open invitation, rather it is the condition that separates "those that believe" being not condemned from those that do not believe being condemned already.
The difficulty in this discussion is actually coming to terms with the concept that it is not "obvious that we all have free will."
The human desire is that there be freedom of the will, for then confusion can be used by the enemy to distract from the truth of Scriptures.
To consider the "free will" one must inquire: in what universe did the sin not effectively destroy, mar, decimate, that God does not remove it all and create a new place for believers and unbelievers?
Does not John 3 state God so loved the "kosmos" (order, moral excellence, the creation...) that He gave... Yet, all creation is to be destroyed that a whole new takes the old's place. Even the believers are a "new creation" that Paul says it yet is to appear what we shall be like, but "we shall be like Him."
Is there a "free will" that is unshackled from the ravages of, unmarked by, and unblemished by sin?
Is there any expression of such uncleanliness that can make clean?
Is there any freedom of the will that is not shackled by at least one prerequisite ?
Only God has absolute free will, as there is NO external force that can be applied against Him to have Him change His mind, or to affect His decisions!
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Why does it seem that we also have free will, though? Is our free will limited? I mean, we make decisions all the time - everything from what to eat to who to marry. Am I complicating it, or have I gone off track?
We have free will to do what our sin natures still allow us to decide to do, but not all options still remain to us now!
Lodic
Well-Known Member
While I don't completely understand, I am inclined to believe you. I will need to let some of this sink in. On that note, I need to get back to work. I'll try to "pop in" later this afternoon.
[EDIT]
Something just occurred to me, and I wanted to share it before I forgot. Is it that we "choose" Christ only because He has first chosen us? That is, that unless He has "called" (chosen) us, we are unable to choose Him?
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You have missed the point completely by elevating my illustration from a child's point of view into the pages of a Systematic Theology.
37818
Well-Known Member
People are self willed and typically do not understand God's will to choose it. One cannot know what one refuses to hear in order to believe a thing. (John 6:44-45).
I took your illustration at face value, added nothing but what might be a few of the impacting factors.
As you presented it, it would seem there were no influences upon the choice, other than an expression of will and the successful conclusion.
Such a presentation was fanciful, and left the casual reader with an skewed sense of choice being merely unhinged from any influences.
The motivation of a choice at various intensities will and does influence all choices.
That does not mean that the sense of "free will" choice is made, or even that a good choice can be made. But a choice of righteousness is beyond the capacity of the unbeliever to be made.
It is as Jesus said not as I say
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Frankly agedman you sound like the naysayers in Pilgrim's Progress as they try verbally to challenge the sublime wisdom of Christian.
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