of Grace or works?

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Isn't it bad interpretation to just label a passage as "purely symbolic, and nothing more" without looking at the evidence?

"For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" -- Romans 6:4

That's no symbol -- that's a condition. Symbols don't have if's in them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DHK]

Romans 6:1-10
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

What is the context of this passage: baptism or living for Christ. Paul is speaking about living the Christian life, and he uses baptism as an example in a symbolic way. Look at verse two: "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?" There is no mention of baptism here. These believers are already dead to sin and alive to Christ. Paul then goes on and uses their baptism to illustrate this point. As many as are baptized in Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Baptism represents the death of the believer to sin. He has already stated this premise in verse two. We are dead to sin. This is what baptism symbolizes. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
It is obvious that baptism is symbolic. Look carefully at the words: "even so, like as." It is evident that Paul was teaching the principles of Christian living: that one is dead to sin and alive to Christ. These principles are found throughout the rest of the chapter--baptism is not.
DHK

 

[Netcurtains3]

Hi,
It basically boils down to who God is going to let in; never mind all this grace, faith, works malarky.

Perhaps it also boils down to who the other residents of heaven want in as well - just out on a limb there.

We're all such sicko people inside our heads compared to the image we have of what a true saint would be like, its a wonder he would let anyone in to share his life.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "It is obvious that baptism is symbolic."

I completely agree with you. It is obvious that baptism is symbolic, and it is full of rich symbolism as are the other sacraments. The Eucharist contains some of the richest symbolism if you ask me.

one with Christ and His Church,

Carson

 

[Frank]

Sola:
Therefore,IF any man be IN Christ he is a new creature old things are passed away; behold all things are become new. The power of the exceptive clause is, one is a new creature IF and Only IF he is IN Christ. II Cor. 5:17. Paul by inspiration defines for us what it means to be IN Christ. In Gal. 3:26-29, Paul writes, " 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Bradleyc]

A person has to believe and be baptized (Mark 2:16), but also faith without works is (James 2:20)

 

[Bradleyc]

Thats Mark 16:16.

 

[Briguy]

Hi all!!! Hey, a new week, a new day, and a new chance to learn about Jesus!!! can you say, Amen?

How was that for an intro?
Anyway, Bradleyc, Why did you leave out the rest of that verse?, which says that he who does not believe is not saved or is condemmed or however you want to say it. It does not say he who does not believe and is not Baptized, just he who does not believe. You have to understand the significance of baptism at that time to understand the meaning of the verse. Being Baptized was the "proof" that you made the conversion to Christianity. You left your old "religion" and joined a group of rebels known at some point as "the way". Baptism opened a person up to much persecution. Baptism is a fine thing to do and perhaps should be done by every believer but one is not condemmed on the basis of not being Baptized.

Bradleyc, Are you new to the board or just new to this area. I guess I will check your profile. Either way, good to see you post and glad to "meet" you so-to-speak .

Sola and Frank too (Hi Frank haven't seen you post much, hope you are well

Can a person Baptize themself??

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[ January 06, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[Frank]

Brian:
The Bible teaches that one must be baptized by another. Acts 8:30-40. Baptism is unique in that the act is performed by a second party. This is not the case with the other elements of salvation, faith, repentance, confession. The one being baptized must submit to the will of God in this act, which requires a second party.. This is, of course, in accordance with the written evidence.
The Bible is silent on one baptizing himself.

 

[Briguy]

Frank writes:
"The Bible teaches that one must be baptized by another"

Frank, you are right on that. I have not seen a Baptism in the Bible that did not require a second person. Since Salvation is a personal thing between a person and God, then by logic saying a third person MUST be involved does not make sense, so I must conclude that Baptism has a different purpose. We have been down that road before so I can stop with that.

I was told one time that if I was the only person on the earth at the time of Christ that he still would have came from Heaven and died just for me. By what you say, in that exact situation, if he ascended without Baptizing me, my trust and faith in Him would be useless. I know that is extreme but hey, it makes the point well

All for now,
In Christ,
Brian

[ January 06, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:

I was told one time that if I was the only person on the earth at the time of Christ that he still would have came from Heaven and died just for me. By what you say, in that exact situation, if he ascended without Baptizing me, my trust and faith in Him would be useless. I know that is extreme but hey, it makes the point well

All for now,
In Christ,
Brian[/QB]

Nice to see you posting, in this area again.

I know this was addressed to Frank, but let me say something! OK?

If you had lived at the time of Jesus and had been baptized, unto John's baptism, and was alive when the NT Covenant went into effect (Acts 2:4)then your baptism, according John's, would have been invalid.

Acts 19:3-5

3) And he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So, your trust and faith would have been just the beginning. There is just more for one under Grace. Just to say that one believes, in Christ, isn't enough, according to scripture. If that was the case, the ones under John's ministry would have been saved under the new covenant. See what I mean?

MEE

 

[Frank]

Brian:
Jesus said in Mark 16:16, " he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." In every conversion of the Bible you will find this statement to be validated by the example. see Acts 18:8;8:12-14;8:30-40. Each time baptism is mentioned it is connected to belief. This is in complete harmony with what Jesus taught in Mark 16:16.

The argument that Jesus did not say he that is baptized not simply does not hold water, no pun intended.

The coordinating conjunction AND requires the elements belief and baptism to be connected. This is the first clause. The conjunction BUT of the second clause requires things be dissimilar. Therefore, it would be redundant to use the phraseology and is baptized not shall be condemned.

This would be like saying, he that eats his food and digests it will be healthy but he that does not eat and digest his food shall not be healthy. One cannot digest that which he does not eat. Therefore , he will not be healthy.

This application would also apply to Mark 16:16. In this passage belief is connected to baptism and being saved. One who does not believe cannot be baptized and will not be saved.

 

[Singer]

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

When following vs 3-5, it appears that the issue is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and not that of water baptism at all.

Re:

3) And he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they
said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 3 revealed that belief was evident, verse 4 showed that water baptism was evident and yet Paul asked if they had received the Holy Ghost....

Look what happened in verse 6 then when Paul laid his hands on them at which point they received the baptism of the Holy spirit. It still happens that way today.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Singer:
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

When following vs 3-5, it appears that the issue is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and not that of water baptism at all.

Re:

3) And he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they
said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 3 revealed that belief was evident, verse 4 showed that water baptism was evident and yet Paul asked if they had received the Holy Ghost....

Look what happened in verse 6 then when Paul laid his hands on them at which point they received the baptism of the Holy spirit. It still happens that way today.

** So you are saying that these verses are not referring to the differences between John's baptism and the (new) baptism of the NT?

John never baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This wasn't done until after the NT Church was born.

I realize that vs six is talking about receiving the the Holy Ghost, but the subject was on water baptism.

Sorry if I'm not understanding you!

MEE

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carol,
Good to "see" you too. Hope your Christmas was filled with lots of lights, presents, and fellowship, all to the glory of God, of course

You wrote: ""Just to say that one believes, in Christ, isn't enough, according to scripture.""

John 3:16 seems to say otherwise. I know that leaves us what a definition of what "believe" is. I just can't see in my mind that "believe" would in corporate a second party. It has to be personal and if it takes another to Baptize me to save me the 100% personal part goes away. We know from scripture that Jesus will say to some "Go away I never knew you". That sounds one on one to me. I can know you Carol without the help of anyone else. Oh, the verses above to me show that there was no saving belief until Paul talked to the men. They had old testement faith but not new testement faith. The got saved and received the Holy Spirit when Paul spoke to them. Baptism did not play a role here which weakens your argument.

Thanks for the "kind" post

You really have a nice tone to what you post. I for one notice it and appreciate it.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Hi Frank,
You usually accuse me of reading things into the text, or making arguments based on what I think or logic and that is what you did. I stand by what Jesus said and what was written and take it in light of scripture as a whole. I believe I have the more sound interpretation. Thanks for your efforts, I know you mean well

Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

[ January 07, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:
[QB]Hi Carol,

You wrote: ""Just to say that one believes, in Christ, isn't enough, according to scripture.""

John 3:16 seems to say otherwise. I know that leaves us what a definition of what "believe" is. I just can't see in my mind that "believe" would in corporate a second party. It has to be personal and if it takes another to Baptize me to save me the 100% personal part goes away.

** Brian, everyone has to believe in the Lord, to inherit eternal life. You are right, *believe* is the keyword. One has to believe in what to do to be saved, according to the scriptures. You can't just say, "I believe." Lots of people "believe" in the Lord, but never take the steps toward salvation.

We know from scripture that Jesus will say to some "Go away I never knew you". That sounds one on one to me. I can know you Carol without the help of anyone else. Oh, the verses above to me show that there was no saving belief until Paul talked to the men. They had old testement faith but not new testement faith. The got saved and received the Holy Spirit when Paul spoke to them. Baptism did not play a role here which weakens your argument. Yes Brian, they had to be taught and that took someone besides themselves. In vs 5) it says, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Now, do you think that they baptized themselves? Where does it say anything about salvation having to do without someone else? I really don't where you get your belief.

1. You have to repent.
2. Someone has to baptize you.
3. God has to fill you with His Spirit.

You will find this in Acts 2:38.

It takes more than just believing, in your mind. It takes believing, according to the scriptures.
It takes "linking" the scriptures together to get the true meaning of how to be saved. Do you think I look cool in my sun glasses?

MEE <------keeping sweet here!

[ January 07, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Hey all,

As for the laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit...ever heard of the Sacrament of Confirmation?

God bless,

Grant

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Hey all,

As for the laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit...ever heard of the Sacrament of Confirmation?

God bless,

Grant

No Grant, can't say that I have. Where is it in the Bible?

MEE

 

[Frank]

Brian:
Your logic is flawed. Read Romans 10:13-17. One needs a preacher to hear and have faith. I believe he is a third party. One who has sinned and fallen from grace must confess his sins one to another. James. 5:15,16. Again,thrid party involvement. You should study your logic and the Bible, unless you are affriming a person does not have to repent or confess his sins. This is a rational conclusion based on the evidence. The Eunoch also confessed to Phillip. Are you also saying one does not have confess that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God to be saved? How do you know?
Your problem is your faulty assumption that a third party is not involved in salvation. The Bible teaches they are. SEE Previous Post. Simon, in Acts 8, confessed his sins and asked forgivenness for his trangression and asked them,( the apostles) to pray for him. Again, the sinner must confess to those he has offended and bring forth fruits of such. Mat. 3:8. Unless, you are teaching one does not have to confess or repent of sins to be saved.
Forgiveness of sins is granted by God and it is personal. However, it also involves others as well. This is what the Bible teaches.