of Grace or works?

[defenderofthefaith67]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Hey all,

As for the laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit...ever heard of the Sacrament of Confirmation?

God bless,

Grant

No Grant, can't say that I have. Where is it in the Bible?

MEE</font>[/QUOTE]Luke 4:40
When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 4 In context: Luke 4:39-41)

Acts 8:18
When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money
(Whole Chapter: Acts 8 In context: Acts 8:17-19)

1 Timothy 5:22
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Timothy 5 In context: 1 Timothy 5:21-23)

2 Timothy 1:6
For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Timothy 1 In context: 2 Timothy 1:5-7)

Hebrews 6:2
instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 6 In context: Hebrews 6:1-3)

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Frank:
Brian:
Your logic is flawed. Read Romans 10:13-17. One needs a preacher to hear and have faith. I believe he is a third party. One who has sinned and fallen from grace must confess his sins one to another. James. 5:15,16. Again,thrid party involvement. You should study your logic and the Bible, unless you are affriming a person does not have to repent or confess his sins. This is a rational conclusion based on the evidence. The Eunoch also confessed to Phillip. Are you also saying one does not have confess that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God to be saved? How do you know?
Your problem is your faulty assumption that a third party is not involved in salvation. The Bible teaches they are. SEE Previous Post. Simon, in Acts 8, confessed his sins and asked forgivenness for his trangression and asked them,( the apostles) to pray for him. Again, the sinner must confess to those he has offended and bring forth fruits of such. Mat. 3:8. Unless, you are teaching one does not have to confess or repent of sins to be saved.
Forgiveness of sins is granted by God and it is personal. However, it also involves others as well. This is what the Bible teaches.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No third party mentioned here.

[ January 07, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The RCC Cathechism does teach that confession to a priest is the only method of reconciliation of the relationship between God, the church, and man. Thank God it is a false teaching, and the blood of Christ is enough to cleanse all sin. otherwise we would all be in big trouble. God hears the sinner's prayer, and nobody else needs to.

 

[Frank]

Curtis:
Let's read the entire context. Romans 10:13-17 says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Notice verse 14 a preacher proclaims the message, a third party.
Verse 15 the method used by the third party, preaching. see I Cor. 1: 21. The purpose of preaching is to save.
Verse 16 the result of the preaching. They obey or they do not. In the context of Romans 10, three parties are indentiified. The preacher, the third party, The sinner, the second party, subject to salvation. God, the omnipotent and first party who provides the wherewithal to accomplish his purpose for man.
Proper interpretation of any passage requires examination of immediate, remote context as well as harmony of related passages on the subject.

 

[Frank]

Brian:
I did not accuse you of reading things into the text because you simply made an unsubstantiated and false assertion not supported by the inspired volume. You used no text!
A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, uses the same technique, However, I will credit him with honesty about his false teachings. In reference to baptism being for, unto the obtaining of the the remission of sins, I quote, " sometimes grammar must give way to theology." Robertson denied, as you do, that baptism is for the remission of sins. Yet,he cannot by the inspired writings prove his contention. Therefore, in order to sustain his false position he must deny the very words,and grammatical context used in the text. Historical Grammar pg. 289. He had no trouble of understanding the true meaning in Mat. 26:28. Need I say more!

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
The RCC Cathechism does teach that confession to a priest is the only method of reconciliation of the relationship between God, the church, and man. Thank God it is a false teaching, and the blood of Christ is enough to cleanse all sin. otherwise we would all be in big trouble. God hears the sinner's prayer, and nobody else needs to.

Where is the sinner's prayer located in the bible?

Where in the bible are we told to say this prayer and be saved because of it?

 

[RaptureReady]

God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again."

In the Bible, God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

First, my friend, you must realise you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to die. "For the wages [payment] of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.

"... it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

But God loved you so much he gave his only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. "For he hath made him [Jesus, who knew no sin] to be sin for us ... that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus had to shed his blood and die. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Leviticus 17:11) "... without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]" (Hebrews 9:22).

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and he died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.

My friend, "God ... now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the cross.

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: "... Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved... ."

Simply believe on him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected.

His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Saviour.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).

Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.

Surely, you realise you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.

In Luke 18:13, a sinner prayed: "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Just pray and believe:
"Oh, God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when he died on the cross. I believe his shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive him as my Saviour. I thank you for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of your merciful grace. Amen."

Just take God at his word and claim his salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again."

In the Bible, God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

First, my friend, you must realise you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to die. "For the wages [payment] of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.

"... it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

But God loved you so much he gave his only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. "For he hath made him [Jesus, who knew no sin] to be sin for us ... that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus had to shed his blood and die. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Leviticus 17:11) "... without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]" (Hebrews 9:22).

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and he died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.

My friend, "God ... now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the cross.

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: "... Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved... ."

Simply believe on him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected.

His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Saviour.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).

Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.

Surely, you realise you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.

In Luke 18:13, a sinner prayed: "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Just pray and believe:
"Oh, God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when he died on the cross. I believe his shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive him as my Saviour. I thank you for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of your merciful grace. Amen."

Just take God at his word and claim his salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

Yes, but where in the bible does it say that "all" I have to do is say the sinner's prayer and I'll be saved? And you read all that into the text from John 3? Amazing!

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

In the Bible, God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

Where can I find this outlined plan, or this formula in the bible?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:
In the Bible, God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

Where can I find this outlined plan, or this formula in the bible?

John 3:1-16

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:


Where is the sinner's prayer located in the bible?

Where in the bible are we told to say this prayer and be saved because of it?

Nice try. I already posted the verse. When I said sinner's prayer, I meant the prayer of a sinner, like me. My prayer didn't save me. My faith didn't save me. No human could save me. jesus saved me. That's biblical.

Why complicate grace ? Who on Earth has the power to save ?

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:
In the Bible, God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

Where can I find this outlined plan, or this formula in the bible?

John 3:1-16</font>[/QUOTE]That text is speaking about baptism. ...Being born of water and spirit..." I'm looking for the one that says "all" you have to do is say a sinner's prayer and you will be saved.

Jesus said in a lot a different places that one has to do many different things to be saved, such as, being born of water and spirit, eating his flesh and drinking his blood, taking care of the poor, turning the other cheek, etc.

I am looking for the text that says that he never meant those things and he said that "all" you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and believe in your heart that you are saved and you will be saved. I am having a tough time finding that one.

Also I am having a tough time finding in the Acts of the apostles or anywhere else that an alter call is what they apostle and Jesus did in order to help someone "accept" Jesus.

In addition, I am also looking for the text or texts' where it would show me that the apostles and the new Christians walked around saying to one another "I'm saved, bro, I going to heaven!" Or they walked up to other and asked them, "If you died tonight, do you know for sure you’re saved?"

If someone would let me know where I could find those text I would be thankful because I am a bible believing Christian and all I can find is the apostles breaking bread, and the laying on of hands and forgiving in Christ name and baptizing, etc.

 

[Briguy]

Howdy Frank, Sorry I couldn't get back to you until now. Anyway, this third party thing you have wrong. Your third party examples are on the wrong side of the equation. What we are talking about is being "saved" from Hell and being born into the newness of life and bound for Heaven. How God gets the "Word" to someone is up to him. This happens now through 3rd parties and through people reading the Bible.(which I guess you could argue is printed by people and thus involves a third party) I, However am talking on the side of the response. You are saying it takes a third party to respond to God's Word. I am saying the response is personal. The saving comes at the time of genuine "trust" in Christ's death(shed blood) and resurrection, through "faith". In my first example about being alone on earth, it would have been God's job to get the gospel preached to me. I guess if I am alone he would have to speak to me audibly or produce His written Word. My job would be to respond. Think about it Frank, you are saying that I would need a third party to respond and that is just not Biblical or even logical.

On the Mark 16:16 issue. I have said before that Baptism in that example is equal to "signing on the doted line". It is a put up or shut up option. In the early church if you were truely saved the proof would be that you would be Baptized. In that sense, Jesus or anyone could say that Baptism was related to salvation because one could declare, by the action of baptism(public proclamation) who was saved and who wasn't. There you go, now the "and" doesn't mean as much and in my interpretation the second half of the verse makes total sense, where you have to explain away the second part of the verse. Also read the verse again that Curtis posted. "Saved" is mentioned with no mention of baptism. You know there are many such verses.

Defender, Born of Water and Spirit has nothing to do with Baptism. If it did Jesus would have used the word Baptism.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
[qb]Hey all,

As for the laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit...ever heard of the Sacrament of Confirmation?

God bless,

Grant

No Grant, can't say that I have. Where is it in the Bible?

MEE</font>

Luke 4:40

Acts 8:18

1 Timothy 5:22

2 Timothy 1:6
Hebrews 6:2
instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

** Defender, I wasn't aware that the RCC was of the belief of the laying on of hands, as well as other things mentioned, as they did in the Bible.

SORRY!

mee

 

[Frank]

Brian:
The examples posted teach third parties are involved in salvation. The response to the gospel is an individual one. The response is a personal one. However, the Bible teaches that third parties are involved, your opinions not withstanding.

According to I Cor. 1:21, God chose preaching to save. This requires a preacher. Romans 10:14,15. The preacher is the third party. it is possile to lean the truth by just studying the New Testament. However, one cannot comply with all the conditions of salvation unless he has repented, confessed and is baptized for unto the remission of sins. Luke 13:3, Mat, 10:32, Acts 2:38. Each of these conditions requires a third party. Again, the scriptures so teach. SEE Acts 8,16,22.

Jesus taught in Mat. 5 that a man who is angry or has sinned against a brother go to him and seek repentance for the sin committed. This requires three people for forgiveness. One, God who grants the forgiveness. Two, the sinner. The fruits toward the one he has offended, the third party. In each case,it is GOD who has commanded the way in which forgivness is granted.

Furthermore, I am not affirming the third party grants the forgiveness, only that God's way of forgiveness requires a third party.

Salvation in the new covenant is an agreement between God and man. God sets the terms which are not negotiable. Man accepts or rejects them John 12:48. Forgiveness requires the sinner to repent and bear fruits, confess, and be baptized, according to the Bible. One must, restore the damaged relationship with the one he has offended. Mat. 5. In the book of Acts, those who practiced witchcraft repented and confessed their sins. They brought forth fruits of repentance by burning their books. This requires three people. God, who grants the forgiveness. The sinner, the one who has sinned against another. The one who has been offended, the third party. Mat. 6:14,15 teaches we must seek the forgiveness of the one we have offended if God is to forgive us. In the disciples prayer, we are told to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Three parties are involved. In each case, the individual must be granted the forgiveness by God, who has set the conditions for such. In salvation, a third party is required by God. Acts 8:12-14;30-40;16:30-33.

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Singer:
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost
came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

When following vs 3-5, it appears that the issue is the Baptism of the Holy
Ghost and not that of water baptism at all.

Re:

3) And he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye
believed? And they
said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy
Ghost.

4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,
saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come
after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 3 revealed that belief was evident, verse 4 showed that water
baptism was evident and yet Paul asked if they had received the Holy
Ghost....

Look what happened in verse 6 then when Paul laid his hands on them at
which point they received the baptism of the Holy spirit. It still happens
that way today.

Response by MEE:
** So you are saying that these verses are not referring to the differences between John's baptism and the (new) baptism of the NT?

John never baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This wasn't done
until after the NT Church was born.

I realize that vs six is talking about receiving the the Holy Ghost, but the
subject was on water baptism.

Sorry if I'm not understanding you!

** Verse 5 took place after the ascent of Jesus and therefore
qualified for the "in the name of Jesus" baptism which I understand
to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

** Yes they refer to the new baptism which is a whole different
undertaking as I'm sure you know..

**Sorry I took so long to reply. Are we off to greater heights already ?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:

I am looking for the text that says that he never meant those things and he said that "all" you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and believe in your heart that you are saved and you will be saved. I am having a tough time finding that one.

Also I am having a tough time finding in the Acts of the apostles or anywhere else that an alter call is what they apostle and Jesus did in order to help someone "accept" Jesus.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom.10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom.10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
DHK

Ok then , DHK, you should have no problem accepting that any Catholic who believes in Jesus is saved.

Somehow, I doubt that you accept that however.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Ok then , DHK, you should have no problem accepting that any Catholic who believes in Jesus is saved.

Somehow, I doubt that you accept that however.

If you accept those verses just as they are, by faith and faith alone, no I don't have any trouble. But Caatholics don't do that. They must add on to the belief that is mentioned in those verses: baptism, sacraments, works, etc., in order to be saved. None of those conditions are mentioned in the above verses. Salvation is unconditional. It is all of grace, accepted by faith, as described above.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Singer:
** Verse 5 took place after the ascent of Jesus and therefore
qualified for the "in the name of Jesus" baptism which I understand
to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

** Yes they refer to the new baptism which is a whole different
undertaking as I'm sure you know..

**Sorry I took so long to reply. Are we off to greater heights already ?

[/QB]

--Singer, I believe vs 5 is talking about the ones in Ephesus being "baptized again" in the name of the Jesus Christ. John's baptism of repentance was/is not valid under Grace.

Now in vs six, it talks about them receiving the Holy Ghost. That is not the same thing as water baptism.

MEE