of Grace or works?

[defenderofthefaith67]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I agree and he went on to say "being born of water and spirit." He is specifically referring to Baptism, why do you leave off part of the text? The part that says "being born of water and spirit?" That is what Jesus said was being born again, baptism.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

I agree, now show me the bible's definition of what it means to believe? That is too general of a statement to make, Jesus said one must believe but he did not say that was "all" a person had to do.

Acts 10:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

"Thy house" can mean bring your children to Christ through baptism, it can be a support for infant baptism. Again what does it mean to "believe," what does the bible say it means?

Rom.10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Okay, now reconcile that with all the texts that Jesus says that we have to be baptized, we have to eat his flesh, we have to follow his commands etc...

I find it strange that a sola scriptoria believer would disregard all the many, many, texts in order to fit this single text in to a theology. It is clear that the text is being made to fit a theology, instead of the theology being based on the text. This text is not specific in saying anything but a general confession and belief that Jesus Christ is lord and that we all need him in order to have eternal life, something I do not disagree with but it is not a specific instruction on what one has to do in order to be saved.

This text does not translate " all you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you'll be saved." Certainly not, especially after, you Finnish reading the rest of Romans and the gospels in which it clearly states that we have a lot more that just saying a pray that is not even biblical and "believing", which the bible does not define what "believing" is in order to be saved. We are not saved by works, we are saved by grace and reciting the sinner’s prayer that is not biblical in nature does not save anyone.

Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And where is the scripture explaining what "call on the lord" initials? Again, how does this fit in with feed the poor, clothe the naked, and let your light shine among men so they will see your works and glorify God in heaven?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

"Amen, Amen, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man you have no life in you... my flesh is true food indeed and my blood is true drink...who ever eats my body and drinks my blood has life in him and I will raise him on the last day."

Okay...are we suppose to ignore this (??) which could not be any more specific and believe a general non specific text that is open for interpretation?

What does it mean to "hear his word?" What is his word? Could it mean that he who hears his word and believes that he is God's son are the ones that keep his commands and believe him when he said that we have to eat his flesh in order to have life?

I ask again where in any of the text that you provided does it say "all" you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you are saved?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I agree and he went on to say "being born of water and spirit." He is specifically referring to Baptism, why do you leave off part of the text? The part that says "being born of water and spirit?" That is what Jesus said was being born again, baptism.

Verse 3 says you must be born again.
Verse 5 says you must be born of water and of the Spirit. Nowhere in this passage is the word baptism used; in fact it is not used in the entire chapter. To suggest that "water" here refers to baptism is to do injustice to this passage of Scripture. H2O does not always refer to baptism.

I agree, now show me the bible's definition of what it means to believe? That is too general of a statement to make, Jesus said one must believe but he did not say that was "all" a person had to do.

Apparently you just want to deny Scripture. Believe means to believe. Only believe. Believe plus nothing. No works. Faith alone. Study Eph.2:8,9.

"Thy house" can mean bring your children to Christ through baptism, it can be a support for infant baptism. Again what does it mean to "believe," what does the bible say it means?

And just as likely "thy house" can mean a family full of grandmas and grandpas, uncles and aunts, with no one under fifty. Don't read into Scripture that which is not there.

Okay, now reconcile that with all the texts that Jesus says that we have to be baptized, we have to eat his flesh, we have to follow his commands etc...

What has that got to do with Romans 10:9, confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believing in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead? The answer--Nothing!

[QUOTE}I find it strange that a sola scritoria believer would disregard all the many, many, texts in order to fit this single text in to a theology. It is clear that the text is being made to fit a theology, instead of the theology being based on the text. This text is not specific in saying anything but a general confession and belief that Jesus Christ is lord and that we all need him in order to have eternal life, something I do not disagree with but it is not a specific instruction on what one has to do in order to be saved.</font>[/QUOTE]Check the context of the entire chapter. The text is not taken out of its context. What is taken out of context is Roman Catholic theology which has no Biblical context or foundation at all.

This text does not translate " all you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you'll be saved." Certainly not, especially after, you Finnish reading the rest of Romans and the gospels in which it clearly states that we have a lot more that just saying a pray that is not even biblical and "believing", which the bible does not define what "believing" is in order to be saved. We are not saved by works, we are saved by grace and reciting the sinner’s prayer that is not biblical in nature does not save anyone.

There is nothing more to do than to believe on His name. You read the rest of the Bible for yourself.

Rom.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
And where is the scripture explaining what "call on the lord" initials? Again, how does this fit in with feed the poor, clothe the naked, and let your light shine among men so they will see your works and glorify God in heaven?

This is so simple and plain English. Why is it so hard for you to understand? It means exactly what it says: Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved. The works that you mention have nothing to do with salvation. They are the fruit of one's salvation. They come after one is saved, because he is saved.

"Amen, Amen, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man you have no life in you... my flesh is true food indeed and my blood is true drink...who ever eats my body and drinks my blood has life in him and I will raise him on the last day."

What has this to do with John 5:24?

Okay...are we suppose to ignore this (??) which could not be any more specific and believe a general non specific text that is open for interpretation?

No, John 5:24 is very specific as to its meaning. One does not have to try and force other meanings from other Scriptures into it. Just take the verse as it reads.

What does it mean to "hear his word?" What is his word? Could it mean that he who hears his word and believes that he is God's son are the ones that keep his commands and believe him when he said that we have to eat his flesh in order to have life?

What does it mean to hear God's Word? Exactly what it says. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
After hearing God's Word, and then believing it, (i.e., the gospel--His death, burial, and resurrection; his sacrifical death for you),
1. you have everlasting life,
2. you shall not come into condemnation,
3. you are passed from death unto life,
Faith in Christ = Salvation.
"Are we to ignore this?" Yes we are to ignore the heresy of transubstantiation.

I ask again where in any of the text that you provided does it say "all" you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you are saved?

Just read the above responses, and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
If you accept those verses just as they are, by faith and faith alone, no I don't have any trouble. But Caatholics don't do that. They must add on to the belief that is mentioned in those verses: baptism, sacraments, works, etc., in order to be saved. None of those conditions are mentioned in the above verses. Salvation is unconditional. It is all of grace, accepted by faith, as described above.
DHK

But are you not also adding to it by saying you can not believe anything in addition?

I would say that you believe things in addition, but simply will not acknowledge it.

Do you not sometimes form an opinion as to whether someone else is or is not saved based upon their behavior? Isn't this requirement of a change in behaviors an addition to belief alone?

If a drunk believes but continues to drink heavily, is he saved?

 

[Briguy]

Defender, in discussing John 3:3 you said that DHK left out the "context" verse. But-- you did the same thing. As I see it there are 4 verses stuck together that need to be read together.

3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I don't have time to go into great detail but read the four verses together. This is a discussion of physical birth and spiritual birth. The physical womb is introduced and Jesus uses the word "water" to represent it and then assures us of what he means in the next verse by the word "flesh". The word Spirit, which is capitalized, represents a new birth, one that is strickly in the spiritual realm. One physical birth to enter the world and a spiritual birth to enter Heaven. Anyway, that is the context that 3:3 must be seen in. Old N. and Jesus were having a conversation and you want to think that Jesus would speak in tricky language. He saved the tricky stuff for parables. In one on one conversation he spoke more plainly. Had he meant Baptism, most assuredly he would have said Baptism. Let the words of Jesus be as they are, in light of the situation he was in when he said them.

Ron, Jesus decides who is saved not me or DHK. Fruit follows salvation. Christians start out as babies, that is clear in scripture. The "drunk" as you say will stop drinking as he grows in Christ, that is basically a certainty. If he never grows he was never "born again" as growth is not an option physically or spiritually. Rate of growth is very different and an individual thing.

Anyway, Hope you are well over there in Michigan!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Ron, Jesus decides who is saved not me or DHK. Fruit follows salvation. Christians start out as babies, that is clear in scripture. The "drunk" as you say will stop drinking as he grows in Christ, that is basically a certainty. If he never grows he was never "born again" as growth is not an option physically or spiritually. Rate of growth is very different and an individual thing.

Hi, Brian. You just made my point. You are saying it's faith plus growth. Faith plus something else.

It seems that "faith alone" is an abstract concept - not really the reality.

Things in Michigan are great. I just can't seem to get up north as much as I would like.

Ron

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

Originally posted by DHK:

Verse 3 says you must be born again.

Agreed, what do you think baptism is? It is when we are being buried with Jesus, dying to our old self and rising to a new life in Christ. I believe that pretty much describes being born again.

Verse 5 says you must be born of water and of the Spirit. Nowhere in this passage is the word baptism used; in fact it is not used in the entire chapter.

What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

Trinity was never used in the entire bible does that mean Jesus never spoke of it? That is a ridiculous defense and a very poor attempt to discredit what is obviously there. I am fascinated by how you are insinuating that Jesus only means what he means in one sentence at a time. If Jesus says one thing in one line and he says another thing in another line the two line are not related? How does the fact that Jesus said "Born Again" in one sentence and "Born of water and spirit" in the next means that he was not explaining to someone who was having difficulty understanding how the holy spirit will come upon someone through the sacrament of baptism?

How is it that you can distant to obvious text that are in the same paragraph dealing with the same person that it is being discussed with and say there are two different things? But for the sake of argument, let's say it was two different things, what does "Born of water and spirit" mean, and when was Jesus telling Nicodemous that he had to be born of water and spirit if he wanted to see the kingdom?

As I see it, you are in a predicament because if you want to separate each and every sentence that Jesus spoke and assume that nothing he said was related to each other by saying that "being born from above" and "Being born of water and spirit" are two distant thing, then you are suggesting that there are more than just the "only" and "all" you need to do is "believe" and you'll be saved. This is a perfect example by your own admission that Jesus said many different and separate things that tell us what we need to do in order that we may be saved, and "all you need is to say the sinner's prayer," unlike baptism is not in the bible at all. Show me where in any of your provided text does it say "all" you need to do is believe. And tell me what the rest of the gospel was telling when it clearly gave us commands to be baptized, to eat his flesh, etc. if your saying "all" it says is to believe.

To suggest that "water" here refers to baptism is to do injustice to this passage of Scripture. H2O does not always refer to baptism.

Then what does it refer to?

Apparently you just want to deny Scripture. Believe means to believe. Only believe. Believe plus nothing. No works. Faith alone. Study Eph.2:8,9.

Show me where the bible is saying that and not just you saying that.

And just as likely "thy house" can mean a family full of grandmas and grandpas, uncles and aunts, with no one under fifty. Don't read into Scripture that which is not there.

What do you think the "it can mean" suggests? Just that a suggestion, no where have I infallibly stated what I believed that text to mean. I was clear that "it can or may" mean a support of infant baptism. I believe that "it may" mean that, because of the times, there weren’t exactly birth control back then and it was common and likely that all married families with women that were in child bearing years had small children and infants. It's only a suggestion, you should not read what is not there.

What has that got to do with Romans 10:9, confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believing in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead? The answer--Nothing!

What does all the commands of Jesus instructing his apostles to go and forgive sins and to go and baptize all nations and to "do this" in memory of him when he instituted the Eucharist at the last supper and established the new covenant, what does all those things that Jesus said for us to do have anything to do with what Paul said in Romans?

I'll tell you what, Paul based his theology on Jesus, Jesus did not based his theology Paul so therefore when you read any text you must read it in light of the entire scripture. Are you seriously suggesting to me that we should take scripture of context and interpret it from there and if we like what it says believe it, and if it does not fit into our own theology then we should ignore it?

Check the context of the entire chapter. The text is not taken out of its context. What is taken out of context is Roman Catholic theology which has no Biblical context or foundation at all.

Check out Roman in the context of the gospel and then based your theology on that. Again Paul was basing his writing on Jesus not the other way around and further more I will always put more stock in what Jesus said then what Paul said and to add I believe there are many more chapters in the scriptures than only Romans, I happen to like to go outside Romans and see the big beautiful world of scripture that is out there.

There is nothing more to do than to believe on His name. You read the rest of the Bible for yourself.

I have and that is why I am asking you to show me where it say that "all" we have to do is believe in the name of Jesus and be saved. I have looked and I can not find it.

This is so simple and plain English. Why is it so hard for you to understand? It means exactly what it says: Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved. The works that you mention have nothing to do with salvation. They are the fruit of one's salvation. They come after one is saved, because he is saved.

Okay fine then, it is also plain English when I read that Jesus said, "Depart from me you evil doer...I never knew you...I was hungry and you fed me not..." "Not all those who call on the name "lord, lord" will be saved…only those who do the will of my father will be saved."

What has this to do with John 5:24?

So are we to discard what Jesus is very articulate in saying because it doesn't fit into what you want one line of the entire bible to say?

"He who eats my flesh I will raise on the last day."

No, John 5:24 is very specific as to its meaning. One does not have to try and force other meanings from other Scriptures into it. Just take the verse as it reads.

Sure, and you take John 6 for what it means as well, okay?

What does it mean to hear God's Word? Exactly what it says. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
After hearing God's Word, and then believing it, (i.e., the gospel--His death, burial, and resurrection; his sacrifical death for you),
1. you have everlasting life,
2. you shall not come into condemnation,
3. you are passed from death unto life,
Faith in Christ = Salvation.

Okay so I am only supposed to "hear" his words in the respect that I am to "believe" in his death burial, and resurrection and I am to ignore is direct, written down, as quoted from his mouth, words what we are to do in order to access the grave that his death, burial, resurrection has won for us? In other words, where is it written in the bible that "all" we have to do is believe that he died, was buried, and rose in order to be saved? I believe that this is what saves us of course, but what am I supposed to do with all the many text that says to baptize, to eat his flesh to confess my sins, follow his commands?

"Are we to ignore this?" Yes we are to ignore the heresy of transubstantiation.

I didn't ask you that, I asked you are we to ignore what Jesus said in this particular text? If we are not to ignore it then what are we to do with it? Assume Paul knows more than Jesus does and to take Romans over John?

Just read the above responses, and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Fine, did that but what do I do with all the left over scriptures? It like when you put something mechanical together and you have all these left over parts, it may look right or seem right, but if you have left over parts, you know you did something wrong and you did not follow the instructions right. Well it is the same here, you want to take a few text form your belief on those and throw out the rest. What do you do with all those left over texts that don't fit in with your theology?

 

[Briguy]

Ron writes:
""Hi, Brian. You just made my point.""

Oh man, I hate when I do that

Actually, I see what you are saying but I think you are missing a critical point. If the salvation is real, i.e the person really does repent and trust the death and ressurection of Christ, as payment for his sins, then it (salvation, that is) happens at that moment. The works will result, with growth, and prove to the world the person is saved. God sees the heart not the works. Ron, you seem to be saying that the salvation isn't assured until the person "proves" it to God by doing works. this is in conflict with the teaching in the book of James. I hope I made that difference clear enough.

Have a great day!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[RaptureReady]

I believe that when a person talks about the "sinner's prayer," he is referring to a SINNER that prays for forgiveness and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's not hard my friend. The Bible says, "Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Believe what God's word says about yourself, Romans 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

So what's the big deal about sin, Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death;... Wages means payment, so therefore the payment for your sin is death. There is good news my friend, God paid that payment for you with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. That's right, we can live through him, Jesus Christ. How? Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. This is all we have to do, believe that Jesus paid our sin debt on the cross of Calvary.

This is one way I like to see it. Jesus took all of my sins, paid for them, and then shoved the paid in full receipt down the devils throat.

The debt has already been paid for you. All you have to do is believe it. Take God at His word.

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

The debt has already been paid for you. All you have to do is believe it. Take God at His word.

And who says I don't? How can you say that I don't just because I so happen to be a Catholic?

But that's not what I am asking, what I am asking is what are we supposed to do with all the left over scriptures that does not equal up to what you are saying?

It is simple and I can not understand why my question keeps being ignored, where does Jesus say " all you have to do is believe?"

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:

It is simple and I can not understand why my question keeps being ignored, where does Jesus say " all you have to do is believe?"

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The only work that Jesus ever required of us was to believe: Only believe.

[ January 10, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[DHK]

Posted by Defenderofthefaith:

Verse 3 says you must be born again.
Agreed, what do you think baptism is? It is when we are being buried with Jesus, dying to our old self and rising to a new life in Christ. I believe that pretty much describes being born again.

Being born again speaks of a new birth, being saved by trusting God's Spirit to enter your life and make you a new creature. It has nothing to do with baptism. It is a spiritual birth. Look at John 1:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--verse 13: which were born of God. There is no mention of baptism here. How is one born of God? Look at verse 12: "As many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Believe on the name of Christ. Receive Christ as your Saviour. And then you will be born again.

Verse 5 says you must be born of water and of the Spirit. Nowhere in this passage is the word baptism used; in fact it is not used in the entire chapter.
What's that got to do with the price of eggs?
Trinity was never used in the entire bible does that mean Jesus never spoke of it? That is a ridiculous defense and a very poor attempt to discredit what is obviously there. I am fascinated by how you are insinuating that Jesus only means what he means in one sentence at a time. If Jesus says one thing in one line and he says another thing in another line the two line are not related? How does the fact that Jesus said "Born Again" in one sentence and "Born of water and spirit" in the next means that he was not explaining to someone who was having difficulty understanding how the holy spirit will come upon someone through the sacrament of baptism?

The concept of the trinity is taught throughout the Bible; therefore we believe it. The concept of baptism in John 3 is not taught at all; therefore we do not believe it. Nowhere is taught in Scripture that water has the magical power to wash away sins. What makes you think that either Jesus or Nicodemus would be thinking about baptism at this point in their conversation. They were both Jews. Baptism was never in the conversation to begin with, never mentioned at all. You are the one trying to force the concept of baptism into this conversation. The chapter has 36 verses. Where is baptism mentioned? Three times Jesus says you must be born again; not once does he say you must be baptized. The two are not the same. 1Pet.1:23 says that one is born again by the Word of God. Here it is says that we are born again by the Spirit of God. God uses His Spirit and His Word, and only those two agencies in the new birth. Baptism has no part in the new birth.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Hi Defender,

If possible please respond to my previous posts that were directed to you. Thanks so much!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The debt has already been paid for you. All you have to do is believe it. Take God at His word.

And who says I don't? How can you say that I don't just because I so happen to be a Catholic?

But that's not what I am asking, what I am asking is what are we supposed to do with all the left over scriptures that does not equal up to what you are saying?

It is simple and I can not understand why my question keeps being ignored, where does Jesus say " all you have to do is believe?"</font>[/QUOTE]Please tell me what verses you are talking about? If the word all is going to stop you from believeing, then all I can do is pray for ya.

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Defender,

If possible please respond to my previous posts that were directed to you. Thanks so much!

In Christ,
Brian

Brian,

As soon as I get some extra time, I promises I will answer you.

 

[defenderofthefaith67]

Defender, in discussing John 3:3 you said that DHK left out the "context" verse. But-- you did the same thing. As I see it there are 4 verses stuck together that need to be read together.

3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Agreed, and what I asked was what does it mean to be born again? What does the bible say being born again means?

3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

And the answer is, no he can not.

3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So there is your connection. No, he can not be born again in a literal sense but only through the waters of baptism in which the water is a symbol of being made clean and the spirit is what is infused in our souls upon receiving the sacrament. So unless he is born of both water and spirit, he can not see the kingdom.

3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Yeah so…What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit, so how does this disprove baptism?

I don't have time to go into great detail but read the four verses together. This is a discussion of physical birth and spiritual birth. The physical womb is introduced and Jesus uses the word "water" to represent it and then assures us of what he means in the next verse by the word "flesh". The word Spirit, which is capitalized, represents a new birth, one that is strickly in the spiritual realm. One physical birth to enter the world and a spiritual birth to enter Heaven.

No, that is not correct. Jesus said being born of water and spirit meaning together not separate.

~These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.~
You can read the whole article.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp

Anyway, that is the context that 3:3 must be seen in. Old N. and Jesus were having a conversation and you want to think that Jesus would speak in tricky language. He saved the tricky stuff for parables.

Parables is when he was explaining what the apostles and the followers did not understand not what was tricky.

And speaking of tricky…why did those believers leave Jesus if Jesus was talking figurative and not literal in John 6? By your own accord you say that when Jesus spoke tricky he spoke in a parable. John 6 I not a parable. Don’t you think if he didn’t mean flesh IS flesh, he would have said to the crowd that he was only talking tricky, and asked them to come back? Do you really think he would have let 5000 go back to their former way of life because he was talking tricky?

Besides, Nicodemus didn’t understand, the text even says that he didn’t… “Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.' The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Nicodemus answered and said to him, "How can this happen?" Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

In one on one conversation he spoke more plainly. Had he meant Baptism, most assuredly he would have said Baptism. Let the words of Jesus be as they are, in light of the situation he was in when he said them.

Sure as long as you do the same in John 6… okay???

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by defenderofthefaith67:

Agreed, and what I asked was what does it mean to be born again? What does the bible say being born again means?

Does the word "water" in John 3:5 refer to baptism?
No, there is no evidence, Biblical or otherwise, to demonstrate that "water" in John 3:5 refers to baptism, other than one's own presuppositions.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice that the scholars of the King James translation correctly translated the word "Spirit" in verses 5 and 6, with a capital "S," indicating that the word refers to the Holy Spirit. One must be born again of the Spirit of God. This is the clear teaching of verses five and six. Without the Holy Spirit of God it is impossible to be saved, impossible to be born again, impossible to enter into the Kingdom of God.
"Spirit" definitely refers to the "Holy Spirit."
"Water" definitely does not refer to "baptism."

"Water" may refer to natural birth, as Briguy contends.
It is my belief that "water" of John 3:5 refers symbolically to the Word of God, as is borne out by other Scripture. Compare Scripture with Scripture.
The principle truth here is "You must be born again!" What does the Scripture teach about being born again? How is one born again?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--One becomes a son (child) of God by believing on the name of Christ. Verse 13 goes on to say that we are born of God. It also tells us that we cannot be born of the blood, the flesh, or the will of man. Baptism is an act of the will of man. You decide if you want to be baptized. It is a choice you make. You are not born of the will of man. You are not born of baptism. You are born of God. That is the first thing one needs to note in this context.

Secondly: In the study of water we find that it is a cleansing agent. Though this is ought to be obvious to even the most casual of readers, we will find Biblical support for it in Jer.2:22
22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

Take as much water as you like, and the strongest possible soaps that you can find, scrub as hard as you will, but you will never, never wash away your sin with water. Jeremiah uses this illustration because both water and soap are cleansing agents, otherwise the illustration would not make sense.
Water is a cleansing agent. So is the Word of God.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Jesus uses the Word to cleanse His disciples. He says to us, that we are clean through the Word. The Word, like water, is a cleansing agent. The water is symbolic of the Word. Both are cleansing agents. Water does not symbolize baptism; rather the Word of God. Let's continue.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
— The word "begat" here speaks of birth. Of God's will, he gave us new birth with the word of truth. We were born again! How? Through the Word of God. The Word of God is a primary agency of the new birth. You must be born again: How? By the Spirit of God, and by the Word of God. Continue on in Scripture:

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--- Peter also says that one is born again by the Word of God.

There are only two things mentioned in Scripture, two agencies by which one is born again: the Word of God, and the Spirit of God. This would lead one to the obvious conclusion that "water" is symbolic of "the word" in John 3:5, given the weight of the evidence above. You must be born again. You must be born by the Spirit of God. You must be born by the Word of God. These are the only two agencies that God mentions and/or uses in the new birth process. Baptism never fits into this picture at all.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Great work DHK!! Thank you once again for your insight.

In Christ,
Brian