Officer refuses to serve in Iraq

Believe it or not, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

 

Many Union and Confederate soldiers fought in spite of not believing in the cause. Specifically, freeing the slaves wasn't all that popular in the North when the war began. Since only 10% of southerners lived in slave owning households, most CSU soldiers had little interest in whether slavery remained legal... and certainly didn't have enough interest to sacrifice their lives.

Many if not most in the military had low regard for Clinton and didn't trust him.... Should they be subject to obey someone who they don't believe could discern a just cause?

There has never been an American war where someone didn't have to serve in spite of their disagreement with the policy or the President. You simply can't give soldiers the veto power over orders deemed legal by all three branches of our government.

It is a very dangerous thing to allow the military to second guess the decisions of the constitutionally elected civilian authorities. That's how military coups are begun.

Happens all the time. Men in combat very seldom consider "cause" when fighting. They fight for the man beside them.

No he didn't. He did a dangerous thing. He is rationalizing an ideal that would subvert the idea that our military must remain subordinate to elected authorities. He decided that since he disagreed with a legal policy that he could rationalize a way around obeying it. That is not his prerogative. It is also not his prerogative to play judge, jury, and Supreme Court justice over whether the war is legal and Constitutional or not.

Nope. The decent thing since he is not claiming to be a conscientious objector is to try him and send him to Leavenworth for 5-10 years hard labor.

Be that as it may, soldiers understand that they are subject to the civilian authorities for policy. They know that there may be Presidents and policies that they disagree with.

This guy is doing one thing and one thing only of substance... he is violating a solemn oath that by all accounts he made with full knowledge and willingness.

 

All good points; sounds like you have served?

Thanks for the support...

 

You comments about the north are correct. THe ones about the south a certainly not.
The soldiers of the south, the ones that were the lower ranking one you mention, fought because they were being invaded. If another country invades, you fight back.
It doesn't really matter, why, but if an foreign army marches into your town, you fight back.

As for the Lt. I think he should expect to go to prison for his actions which he does.
The questions remaining in my mind are these: What exactly was his oath, and at what point is it right for a military officer to disobey an order. I think we all agree that there does come a point when that is true. You may think this is NOT that point, but I think one has to believe that at some point it happens.

 

Some one once said that "a patriot loves the land and the people, a nationalist loves the government."

Sounds like we got alot of nationalists around here.

 

Well said, Poncho!

 

Absolutely.

Soldiers in combat have their own ways of taking care of reluctant soldiers.

Besides, he was offered non combat service making your question a moot point.

 

I was an officer in the Reserves for 7 years.

Most of my time was spent as an XO or CO of a Training Company. I gave the intro's to UCMJ and the Geneva/Hague Conventions several times.

 

How does that make my statement incorrect? I didn't say why they fought... only that they didn't fight to keep slavery legal. Few owned slaves.

Part of it was a obey the lawful orders given to him. Since the Iraq operations have been legislated by Congress, ordered by the President, and do not violate any Article or Amendment to the Constitution... It is a legal order until SCOTUS says otherwise.

When it is illegal... as determined by some authority greater than any military rank. Generals set some policies but they don't write law.

Yes. If he were being asked to go on raids to kill, rape, and pillage the Iraqi civilians... Yes.

He's being asked to go to Iraq and help establish the peace... to fight terrorists in what is now a allied country.

 

And our system of national defense is still necessarily predicated upon the ideal that the military ALWAYS submits to the civilian authority.

The minute we legitimize service members questioning the legal orders they've been given, we invite all the things you fear... culminating in a real military police state.

 

Scott, were you SJA?

 

There has even been one concientious objector who has received the Congressional Medal of Honor. He volunteered, and spent much of his time retrieving fallen soldiers from the front lines and putting himself in harm's way.

However, the time to claim CO status is before volunteering.

 

Oh, ok I see. You are right. I misunderstood your question.

 

That is certianly true. The problem here is that he is not wanting CO status.
THe problem with CO is that you have to object to all wars.
Unfortunately, he realized too late that he didn't want to fight in THIS war.

THere really isn't much he can do but accept what they give him.
Which will probably be prison?

 

And I hope that it's a long prison sentence for this dishonorable act.

When I was in the Navy, I encountered many people who volunteered to get all the goodies, but when the going got tough, they started crying, "I didn't want to do this!

 

I understand what you are saying but I am not sure that is what he is doing.
This is a very unGodly war and I don't blame him for what he is doing.

He was lied to so he joined up. Now he sees that it is a war for empire and not defending the US so I don't blame him.

 

Funny thing about it is that I hear this claptrap from the media and the conspiracy theorists quite regularly, but I have several friends on the ground there, and not a single one feels this way, and they say that few of the soldiers do, and most of the Iraqi citizens support them and would rather deal with an enemy they can fight. (They are truly amazed at the drivel contained in the mainstream medie every time they visit home.) Every single one of my friends there has re-enlisted in order to go back and continue helping, and I wish I could go back in.

I say the man's a coward, but that's just opinion based on his actions and my experiences with others while I was in.

 

I don't think so either. He is attempting to make a political statement and using his position as an officer in the US Army to do it... very unethical and very similar to what Plame/Wilson did.

On what basis do you call it ungodly? I suspect I would be able to raise similarly devised objections to every war ever fought no matter how just you or I think they might have been.

This war began when the world's foremost intelligence agencies said that Saddam was continuing with WMD's in violation of the terms of the UN resolution that ended the first gulf war. The intel also suggested that Saddam was a state supporter of terrorism who had stated support for terrorists and their efforts against the US.

On the more touchy feely side, Saddam was an oppressive fascist who cruelly tortured, raped, and murdered not only those who rebelled against him but also their families, friends, and neighbors.

He was told that he would be granted the authority to decide which actions he wanted to fight in and which he didn't? He was told that he could reject an order of the President if he happened to disagree with the policy? Exactly how was he "lied to"?

Please cite proof that the US intends to annex Iraq. Please cite proof that the US is more interested in continuing to meddle in Iraqi affairs than they were say.... Germany or Japan.

I know some have this hopeful notion that if we leave the world alone it will leave us alone or that we can ignore problems and they'll go away... but it just isn't realistic.

GW Bush had the courage to make a call to prevent Saddam or his sons from becoming a Hitler with WMD's... costing our children dearly in lives and suffering. He went on the intel as it was presented. I wouldn't have him or any other President act with any less resolve when faced with a threat to my kids' future.

Radical Islam is a real problem that isn't going away on its own... in fact, if left alone, it is coming to a neighborhood near you... and soon.

 

thanks...

ScottJ:

Those of us who feel the same are with you all the way.