Officially coming out now

[Rubato 1]

You can't change your mind in the middle, anyway.
Don't stop supporting or start opposing (whichever is worse) a war in the middle. War is a fact of society and will be until Jesus comes back. So, we fight for principle, so that more don't die-especially innocent ones. We are at least keeping "them" to busy to bomb my neighborhood and country, right? Don't flinch at blood-wars have been just as bloody-no, more so-for thousands of years, including our own fight for independance, WWI, WWII, etc. You just couldn't see them. We don't need weak-kneed, squeamish people backing out of what we've started.

Resolve, anyone? Were your parents ever ashamed if you started something and didn't finish? Do you know that it would be 5x worse for us and terrorists if we hadn't done this or don't finish? Does the Bible say its better not to begin than to begin and not finish? Did David defend Ziklag? Did Goliath bleed? Is the Bible so many stories to you? Did the English crush Napoleon? Did we kill Redcoats? did they kill us? Did Crockett defend the Alamo? Did HE bleed? Did we chrush Hitler and Mussolini and Togo at great cost of life? Were those lives less valuable? Is our freedom less important? Did you know the same graphic scenes were present there? But that was OK? COME ON!! THERE ARE SOME THINGS WORTH GIVING ALL FOR.
Those men fight for YOU, my friend, and your children, and mine. I know the situation is gravely serious-we ended up in a quagmire. That doesn't mean we turn and run.

People get hurt, honey. Life.

 

[Patrick Daniel]

My type" did start our own nation...perhaps you have heard of it. It's called The United States of America. It is ruled by "We the People", not by an authoritarian ruling by divine right.

 

[Rubato 1]

We should model our national policy after that of the Theocracy in the OT.

Isn't God's way of dealing with national enemies to go and DEAL with them?

Don't EVEN get me started on all those UN resolutions that no one had the resolve to follow through. Talk is cheap. even High Diplomatic Level talk

 

[Rubato 1]

Originally posted by Patrick Daniel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />My type" did start our own nation...perhaps you have heard of it. It's called The United States of America. It is ruled by "We the People", not by an authoritarian ruling by divine right.

</font>[/QUOTE]

is right "we the people" NEVER ruled this nation-what do you want, another French revolution?
If "we the people" ruled, I would vote to have YOU locked up!

You are supposed to vote. Look up "Republic" in a dictionary.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Nice ad hominem, Scott. Attack the person, not the subject matter.

Nice falsehood MP. Deflect from the subject rather than answering it.

This universal world "good will" for the US that Bush supposedly squandered is a liberal myth. Some writers even expounded on how many thought we had gotten our come-uppance.

Remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:22

"...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Proverbs 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

 

[go2church]

Originally posted by Rubato 1:
We should model our national policy after that of the Theocracy in the OT.

Isn't God's way of dealing with national enemies to go and DEAL with them?

Don't EVEN get me started on all those UN resolutions that no one had the resolve to follow through. Talk is cheap. even High Diplomatic Level talk

Yeah, we should run back to the Old Testament, the last thing we want is for Jesus to get in the way of national policy of me first.

 

[Frenchy]

Magnetic Poles wrote

You again mix politics with your personal religion. Did God also place Bill Clinton in power? How about Adolph Hitler?

Last time I checked, the Supreme Court/Electoral College put Bush in power. I don't care if you respect me or not, and Bush is not the second coming of Christ. One has no obligation to "repent" for political opinions. Dissent IS patriotic. This nation was founded by dissenters who rose against the "God appointed" rule of King George III. Your view holds no credibility.

It is God who appoints any man to be in leader it is he who builds up and tears down. many do not realize that Hitler was a means to which God used to bring HIS people back into worship of himself. he has used the wicked throughout history to get the Jews back to focus on himself.
check out these verses. showing God is in control of who is in power!

Eph 6:12 "For our sruggle is not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Daniel 2:21 He (God) changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities , for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him.

John 19:11 (speaking to Pilate) Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above . Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Daniel 4:17 "`The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

Daniel 5:21 He was driven away from people and given the mind of an animal; he lived with the wild donkeys and ate grass like cattle; and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he acknowledged that the Most High God is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and sets over them anyone he wishes.


Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you , then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Luke 1:52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.

1Samuel 9:16 "About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin. Anoint him leader over my people Israel; he will deliver my people from the hand of the Philistines. I have looked upon my people, for their cry has reached me." 17 When Samuel caught sight of Saul, the LORD said to him, "This is the man I spoke to you about; he will govern my people." ...14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him leader of his people, because you have not kept the LORD's command."

1 Samuel 25:30 When the LORD has done for my master every good thing he promised concerning him and has appointed him leader over Israel,

1Kings 14:7 Go, tell Jeroboam that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `I raised you up from among the people and made you a leader over my people Israel.

Micah 3:9 Hear this, you leaders of the house of Jacob, you rulers of the house of Israel, who despise justice and distort all that is right; 10 who build Zion with bloodshed, and Jerusalem with wickedness. 11 Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the LORD and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us."

Deut 30:19 (NIV) This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live Josh 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways ," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Now can you actually read those verses and say God didn't allow or appoint Bush, Clinton, Hitler or anyone who is in power to be where he want them to be?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Wow, the theocrats on this board amaze me!

I would add that blindly following a political leader in the belief that God put them in power is dangerous. God gave you reasoning capability (I hope), and expects it to be used. Blind obedience of political leaders led to the holocaust.

God allows individual people to make mistakes. He also allows us to collectively make mistakes. Yes, we live with the consequences, but they are mistakes none the less.

To Rubato, I fully am aware that this is a secular republic and not a direct democracy. Are you aware that it is not a theocracy?

Did Lincoln ask that this nation "of God, by God and for God shall not perish from the earth"? No, it was "this nation, of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE and for the PEOPLE".

We the People do rule, via our representatives. If they don't represent our interests, we can vote them out of office.

The above doesn't mean that God cannot or does not witness our endeavors, or does not influence events on earth. He does allow us freedom of choice, and that includes selecting incompetent or even outright evil leaders.

 

[Frenchy]

Well if Bush was so bad why did he get elected TWICE! God wanted him there and so did the people!

I mean we can say the same for Clinton. as immoral and evil as he was, do you know how many people he personally had killed?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by Frenchy:
Well if Bush was so bad why did he get elected TWICE! God wanted him there and so did the people!

I mean we can say the same for Clinton. as immoral and evil as he was, do you know how many people he personally had killed?

Oh for goodness sake...don't tell me you buy into the debunked tale of Clinton's hit list. See this link:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

Besides, I could make the case that Bush was once appointed once and elected once. Bet the result would be much different if the election were held today.

 

[Frenchy]

Whatever

you still cannot get away from the fact God wants Bush in power at this period of time.
according to the scriptures i listed, you can't

well got to go

 

[Rubato 1]

Originally posted by go2church:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rubato 1:
We should model our national policy after that of the Theocracy in the OT.

Isn't God's way of dealing with national enemies to go and DEAL with them?

Don't EVEN get me started on all those UN resolutions that no one had the resolve to follow through. Talk is cheap. even High Diplomatic Level talk

Yeah, we should run back to the Old Testament, the last thing we want is for Jesus to get in the way of national policy of me first. </font>[/QUOTE]So you don't like God's national policy, either? Join Ballaam, Sanballat, Tobiah, the inhabitants of Jericho, the rest of the canaanites, etc.

Look, my friend, Jesus doesn't get in the way of ANYTHING in the OT. But many have a problem with the differences of policy as far as enemies, justice, etc. in the NT and OT. The difference is that OT emphasized national policy, and Jesus emphasized personal policy.
The truth is, that Jesus fits perfectly into every action of Isrealite warfare that was commanded by God. Hey, even God didn't say He was opposed to war, now that I think of it. If your neighbor sues for your coat, give him your cloak, but if another people threaten your family, religion, and way of life, do business like a good soldier.
You think the violence there is bad now? Just wait untill Armaegeddon! (how do you spell that?)

 

[rsr]

You're assuming he was actually elected.

 

[Rubato 1]

Originally posted by rsr:
You're assuming he was actually elected.

You'd crack up a new sidewalk!

 

[Pete]

I don't have a problem with U.S. taking out Saddam if he was supporting Osama and other assorted idiots, but the "Fighting for Truth, Justice, and American Way" junk piled on with it is a bit much.

 

[go2church]

I just am not cabable of compartmentizing Jesus like you. I'm sure it is helpful when you need to justify something you want to do, but I can't bring myself to do it. I find your reference to "neighbor" interesting, who would you consider your neighbor worthy enough to give your cloak to?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Besides, I could make the case that Bush was once appointed once and elected once. Bet the result would be much different if the election were held today.

I guess you missed the news of the recount in Florida that STILL had the state going to Bush in 2000.

Oh, but that didn't fit with the liberal talking points that Bush stole the election, did it

Let's not let facts get in the way of making our political points, though.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by go2church:
I just am not cabable of compartmentizing Jesus like you. I'm sure it is helpful when you need to justify something you want to do, but I can't bring myself to do it. I find your reference to "neighbor" interesting, who would you consider your neighbor worthy enough to give your cloak to?

The U.S. gives its cloak to many countries. Maybe you've heard of "foreign aid". Your tax dollars at work, spreading the USA's wealth to the less fortunate around the world.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Gina L:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Gina, you must really have a problem with God commanding the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and even beast to gain the land promised to them.

You're right. I'm changing my mind back again, based on this new information that Iraq is America's promised land. </font>[/QUOTE]Here is your quote:

Yes, I was for it at first. I was wrong.

I cannot view the photos of men, women, and children bleeding and screaming and dismembered, from both the United States and Iraq (and elsewhere) and state that any of it is justified.

I've watched people gloat over "victories", victories which were attained by destruction.

Your view is based on blood shed and emotion, not logic. I'm sure the Israelites "gloated" when total anhilation was achieved, too. Has your memory of the victim's and the families of 9/11 been erased?

 

[gtbuzzarp]

Originally posted by Gina L:
I cannot view the photos of men, women, and children bleeding and screaming and dismembered, from both the United States and Iraq (and elsewhere) and state that any of it is justified.

I've watched people gloat over "victories", victories which were attained by destruction.

I've watched people glory in the death of yet another American or another Iraqui.

That seems very selfish.

So if war gets too gory or violent it should end?
Thank God people didn't have this mentality back during WWII. And thank God we didn't have TV or internet during the Revolutionary or Civil War.

The images we get from the media grossly exaggerate what is going on over there. Talk to some servicemen that have been there and ask them what they think.

How often do we hear about the good going on over there?
"This just in, another elementary school has been completed....Today 36 villagers got running water for the first time...." That stuff doesn't make the headlines like "Another IED went off in Baghdad killing 8 and injuring 37".

If we retreat there will be more suffering, not less. Only difference is there won't be all those reporters over there to report on the plight of the Iraqis.