Oh Lord, Is It I?

[steaver]

HP: You make a great point Steaver. :thumbsup:

Eleven other disciples questioned if it could have been them. Now according to your own admission, those eleven would have had to have known they had eternal life to qustion if they could lose it. They certainly questioned if it could be said of them that they would have been better off not even being born. Now you are thinking!!:applause:

I don't see anywhere in the account that 1) the disciples thought they possessed eternal life and 2) they feared they might lose it.

Peter betrayed Jesus also and he was a true believer. So the account of betrayal has nothing to do with eternal life. It is a sin. The only sin that determines eternal life is the sin of "unbelief".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Peter betrayed Jesus

HP: That is a false accusation. To betray and to deny are two different ideas. Peter denied Christ but he never betrayed Him.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, are you suggesting that one can be deceived as to their standing before God? Can a believer have doubts as to whether or not they have ‘eternal’ life? is Does the possibility exist one could even have a firm grip on the understanding of the word ‘eternal’ and believe they have eternal life, and yet in reality have a desperately wicked heart and as such question whether or not it would have been better that they had never been born?

Yep.

Assurance of salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 8:15. Many saints are troubled by doubts.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Aaron, can a person, while in possession of an evil conscience, have a certain hope of their final standing before God?

 

[steaver]

HP: That is a false accusation. To betray and to deny are two different ideas. Peter denied Christ but he never betrayed Him.

A "false accusation" carries with it an evil intent to blaspheme the word of God.

I had no such intent when I erred in my post. You are correct, Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial are two different sins.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, can a person, while in possession of an evil conscience, have a certain hope of their final standing before God?

If you're asking, can one saved still be troubled by doubts, the answer is yes.

It's because of a weak faith. Nothing more.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Aaron, can a person, while in possession of an evil conscience, have a certain hope of their final standing before God?

John 14:19 because I live, you will live also. If you trust that being in Heaven will be the only way to "Feel" secure....the devil was kicked out of there. You better have a better rock to stand on.

 

[steaver]

John 14:19 because I live, you will live also. If you trust that being in Heaven will be the only way to "Feel" secure....the devil was kicked out of there. You better have a better rock to stand on.

Amen! :thumbsup:

Some think that once you make it to heaven only then can you relax because FINALLY God will keep His promise of eternal security on your life.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: A "false accusation" carries with it an evil intent to blaspheme the word of God.

HP: I disagree and by no means was I accusing you of an 'evil intent to blaspheme God' for goodness sake. That never even entered my mind concerning your remarks.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1520517#post1520517
Aaron, can a person, while in possession of an evil conscience, have a certain hope of their final standing before God?

Aaron: If you're asking, can one saved still be troubled by doubts, the answer is yes.

It's because of a weak faith. Nothing more.

HP: I asked about an evil conscience, not simply about doubts. Can one have a certain hope of ones final standing before God while in possession of a conscience bearing testimony of sin not repented and as such an offense towards God?

 

[steaver]

HP: I disagree and by no means was I accusing you of an 'evil intent to blaspheme God' for goodness sake. That never even entered my mind concerning your remarks.

After considering my remark I will concede that it does not necessitate an evil intent. I appologize for accusing you of having an evil intent by observing a false accusation.


:wavey:

 

[Aaron]

HP: I asked about an evil conscience, not simply about doubts. Can one have a certain hope of ones final standing before God while in possession of a conscience bearing testimony of sin not repented and as such an offense towards God?

Define "not repented."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sorry Aaron. It should have read “sin not repented of.”

 

[Aaron]

Define "not repented of."

a) A particular sin or weakness not completely overcome in the life of a believer
b) A pet sin one cherishes and nutures
c) Other

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To repent is to have a change of heart towards a particular intent and or subsequent action, seeing and judging it as God see and judges it, with full honest intentions to cease from such intents and actions. Anything less is not repentance. Repentance involves a turning from something, not merely an acknowledgement that it has happened or exists.

 

[Aaron]

To repent is to have a change of heart towards a particular intent and or subsequent action, seeing and judging it as God see and judges it, with full honest intentions to cease from such intents and actions.

Your definition does not state that a particular sin must be irradicated from a believer's life, but that the believer see's it and desires ardently to be free from it.

So, a sin unrepented of is a sin that is known to be sin, yet cherished and nurtured in the life of a believer.

That person can have no real assurance.

The believer's assurance is not in his capacity to live righteously, but in God's promise.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Aaron: That person can have no real assurance.

The believer's assurance is not in his capacity to live righteously, but in God's promise.

HP: I am simply trying to understand your point but I am having trouble. First you say that such a one in an unrepentant state can have no assurance, then you say ones assurance is not based on ones capacity to live righteously. If one is not living righteously, the only option is for the one to be living in a state you say there can be no assurance. Do you see why I might understand you as believing a stark contradiction?

 

[Aaron]

HP: I am simply trying to understand your point but I am having trouble. First you say that such a one in an unrepentant state can have no assurance

That's right. I didn't say he isn't saved, but that unconfessed sin will is a source of doubts. In fact, it the sin is serious enough, he will have to be put out of the church.

. . . then you say ones assurance is not based on ones capacity to live righteously.

That's right. There's no contradiction

If one is not living righteously, the only option is for the one to be living in a state you say there can be no assurance. Do you see why I might understand you as believing a stark contradiction?

It doesn't appear that you understand salvation.

Abraham believed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Our righteousness is imputed, and one can only be as sure of his eternal state to the degree of which he has faith to believe God's promise.

It appears you believe one must have a righteousness based on his own works. That is an evil conscience in it's truest sense.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Aaron: So, a sin unrepented of is a sin that is known to be sin, yet cherished and nurtured in the life of a believer.

That person can have no real assurance.

HP: Here you show a 'believer' that can have, in your words not mine, "no assurance," then tell us that righteousness is imputed, all the while chiding me for not understranding salvation? You have done nothing to clear up your stark contradiction. What good is OSAS to the 'believer' if one has no assurance, as in the case you mention, that it means them?

 

[Aaron]

I think you're ignoring key words in my post, like "cherish" and "nurture."