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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
DHK said:
I don't know you personally but I find that you seem funny. You write as though you're emotional and usually in a bad mood. This probably isn't a fair observation since I only know you on this forum and you and I disagree on several issues. However, the fact that you witness to many people doesn't mean they are not saved. It only means you've witnessed. So to say that you've witnessed to is only telling me what you've done. Not their condition. You do know better than I how these people are since they live next to you but you must see our confussion.
I see only your naivety concerning the Lord's command:Thinkingstuff said:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Alive in Christ
New Member
ThinkingStuff..
I think you are misunderstanding.
When DHK said he "witnessed to them", to me the obvious implication is that he witnessed to them, and during that witnessing he interacted with them. And part of that interaction was asking questions and listened to their responses.
And in those responses was probably clear evidence that they didnt know Christ.
Which would not be surprising with the vast majority of Catholics and Orthodox.
My experience is identical to DHK's in my discussing these things...witnessing...with Catholics and Orthodox.
They say things in discussion that betray the absence of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the new birth in their lives. And of course the reason for that absence is obvious. The idolatrous and blasphemous theology and practices in those 2 groups.
There are *some* in those 2 groups who have accidently stumbled upon saving faith in Christ, but they are the extreme minority. In some cases they were born again in a true christian organisation, and were sucked into the cultic group after that.
DHK can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that what I have described here is what he meant by "witnessing" to them.
:godisgood:
I think you are misunderstanding.
When DHK said he "witnessed to them", to me the obvious implication is that he witnessed to them, and during that witnessing he interacted with them. And part of that interaction was asking questions and listened to their responses.
And in those responses was probably clear evidence that they didnt know Christ.
Which would not be surprising with the vast majority of Catholics and Orthodox.
My experience is identical to DHK's in my discussing these things...witnessing...with Catholics and Orthodox.
They say things in discussion that betray the absence of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the new birth in their lives. And of course the reason for that absence is obvious. The idolatrous and blasphemous theology and practices in those 2 groups.
There are *some* in those 2 groups who have accidently stumbled upon saving faith in Christ, but they are the extreme minority. In some cases they were born again in a true christian organisation, and were sucked into the cultic group after that.
DHK can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that what I have described here is what he meant by "witnessing" to them.
:godisgood:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
DHK said:
What are you talking about naivety? I know that Jesus tells us to witness which is not the issue. Alive in Christ tells me that I should "read between the lines" with your responce. However, your last responce I find facinating. By using the term "naivety" you imply I don't understand fully the verse you quoted. Which includeds "But ye shall receive power". So are you implying that just the fact that you are witnessing to people the Holy Spirit has specifically led you to them to witness to them? And due to this they obviously aren't saved? Let me put forth this senario: Lets say you walk by someone in a park you "sense" the Holy Spirit leading you to witness to them, So you do. During your conversation you find out that they were a born again believer who attends a local baptist chruch. But because you witnessed to them they must have been lost and not saved? Would this be correct by your statement?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Alive in Christ said:
I agree there are a lot of Catholics and Orthodox who don't know the Lord. But I won't immediately assume someone does not who is an active member of their church unless they've shown me by their words or life they aren't.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
DHK said:
Repeating yourself isn't the same thing.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Thinking stuff,
You are still missing it.
Let me speak from my experience.
I was "witnessing" to a Catholic recently. In response to my asking if she knew the Lord Jesus Christ personally, just like she knows her best friend or family member, she said something like this...
And that is not an isolated case. That is a very normal mind set for Catholics, and to an extent the Orthodox. Not only from experiences I have had in witnessing to them, but also from the posts from Orthodox and Catholics on this and other boards.
THAT is why DHK and myself and others have great concern for their salvation.
WHAT THEY SAY are things that no born again person can say.
From the scriptures...
People REVEAL their condition to us.
:godisgood:
You are still missing it.
Let me speak from my experience.
I was "witnessing" to a Catholic recently. In response to my asking if she knew the Lord Jesus Christ personally, just like she knows her best friend or family member, she said something like this...
And that is not an isolated case. That is a very normal mind set for Catholics, and to an extent the Orthodox. Not only from experiences I have had in witnessing to them, but also from the posts from Orthodox and Catholics on this and other boards.
THAT is why DHK and myself and others have great concern for their salvation.
WHAT THEY SAY are things that no born again person can say.
From the scriptures...
People REVEAL their condition to us.
:godisgood:
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I don't have a problem with this statement. From a point of revealing themselves to you is fine. But that's not what DHK said. I'm not trying to split hairs. He said " I witnessed to them". And indeed he did fine I witness to many people as well. I was just explaining to a Catholic scriptures that they had no understanding of. But she revealed herself to me by what she said about scripture in which case it is obvious there was a problem. DHK could have just as easily said he witnessed to them just because they're catholic or orthodox or anglican or methodist ad infinitum. I could have taken "I witnessed to them" on several levels. When seeking clarification all the responce was "I WITNESSED TO THEM" The again "I WITNESSED TO THEM". And finally, "I WITNESSED TO THEM with connect the dots. I've dealt with too many people from all over the world enough not to assume my own context into their conversation.
Thinkingstuff, your are not thinking clearly about stuff.
Nevertheless, inspite of things being clearly being explained to you, you have gone on and conveniently derailed this thread. Perhaps this was your purpose all along. If this was in another forum, such as the Politics forum, you would have already been given a warning for derailing the thread, and if continued you would have been suspended by now. Other moderators don't tolerate derailing threads or give as much leniency as I do. I suggest that your further posts be back on the topic of this thread.
Nevertheless, inspite of things being clearly being explained to you, you have gone on and conveniently derailed this thread. Perhaps this was your purpose all along. If this was in another forum, such as the Politics forum, you would have already been given a warning for derailing the thread, and if continued you would have been suspended by now. Other moderators don't tolerate derailing threads or give as much leniency as I do. I suggest that your further posts be back on the topic of this thread.
I have to say I find the above statement rather odd in the light of the fact that you and Alive in Christ have been 'derailing' the thread as much as Thinkingstuff and especially in view of the fact that you raised the issue of whether or not your neighbours were saved in connection with (a) the fact that they were Catholic and Orthodox and (b) the fact that they had Christmas decorations. By stating this, you at the very least implied if not expressed two statements, the second one of which is a logical fallacy:
1. Catholics and Orthodox are not saved
2. Unsaved people have Christmas decorations, therefore Christmas decorations are a hallmark of the unsaved.
#2 is the logical fallacy, easily debunked because (a) saved people have decorations too and (b) it invites further logical fallacies eg: unsaved people drive cars, therefore driving cars is a hallmark of being unsaved. But #1 is also incorrect, which is why Thinkingstuff and I have been busy debunking that. If you don't want us to talk about it, don't bring it up in the first place.
1. Catholics and Orthodox are not saved
2. Unsaved people have Christmas decorations, therefore Christmas decorations are a hallmark of the unsaved.
#2 is the logical fallacy, easily debunked because (a) saved people have decorations too and (b) it invites further logical fallacies eg: unsaved people drive cars, therefore driving cars is a hallmark of being unsaved. But #1 is also incorrect, which is why Thinkingstuff and I have been busy debunking that. If you don't want us to talk about it, don't bring it up in the first place.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Matt has put it well. As far as your insinuation that I've purposely lead the discussion of Track or that it was my original purpose is just plain paranoid and ridiculous. Its a great topic! Should we use christmas decorations that have a background in pagan idolatry and incorporate them during a celebration of our Lord? Great topic. I personally have a fake Christmas tree, Stockings, lights, a manger, and the works. I read selected scripture passages to my kids throughout advent and the whole family doesn't even think about Druids, Winter Solstace, Idols, and the rest. The thing is we have so many customes that originated from pagan beginings and we adhere to it without even thinking but we don't depart from them because of their origins. We still assert our faith. Or do you suggest that in the manner of the inquisition and Salem Mass. witch trials that we look for every item of pagan origin and root them out? We must change the date for christmas to the month of Tishri. And then the next question is where would we stop? Anything that we do that resembles Judaism?
DHK I'm guessing you're a type A personality. Which doesn't like dissent from their own opinions. However, sir you're in good company. Peter was probably the same way before the Lord gentled him. Have a Happy and Merry Christmans. May the Lord Make His Face to Shine upon you.
DHK I'm guessing you're a type A personality. Which doesn't like dissent from their own opinions. However, sir you're in good company. Peter was probably the same way before the Lord gentled him. Have a Happy and Merry Christmans. May the Lord Make His Face to Shine upon you.
This is your conclusion and totally unwarranted. If I said that these denominations, then quote me. Otherwise retract the statement. I said my neighbors, one of the Catholic and one of them Orthodox were unsaved. I do not believe in universalism. I said that they were unsaved because I personally witnessed witnessed to them. I made it clear.Matt Black said:
Had you read my post, I said that by not having Christmas decorations it gave me the opportunity to witness more of the grace of God, and why Christ came into the world. We did not put up Christmas decorations precisely for that reasons. That is what the rest of word does, not just the RCC and Orthodox. In contrast to the world, our family worships Christ from the Bible having Christ as the center of our worship, without all the glitter and the distraction of the tree and other such things. Our thoughts are centered around Christ and Him alone. As I have mentioned before (as an example), Spurgeon would not even allow an organ in his church lest the people take their focus and attention off Christ and Him crucified. It is the same principle.
We don't need the glitter and defilement of the world to worship Christ.
There is no logical fallacy here, only your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Yes, unsaved people (plenty of them) use Christmas trees and decorations.
Therefore:
1. The Bible says that Christians ought not to be like the world (be not conformed to this world) in their worship of the Saviour. This obviously has nothing to do with driving a car, just as it had nothing with Paul sailing inh a ship.
2. If you are interested in celebrating the birth of Christ, show me any historical connection how a Christmas tree is connected with the birth of Christ. It isn't. If it is connected with anything, it is connected with paganism. We all know that. Why connect pagan objects with the birth of Christ? Why is it so hard to detach oneself from the ways of the world and worship Christ and Christ alone?
That was my only point, and you blew it all out of porportion! You made unwarranted assumptions and false accusations.
If it is a great topic why have you filled four pages (#206) of this thread derailing the very topic that you just described about one statement that I made (I witnessed to them). You didn't accept the statement. And went on and on about it, bordering on the edge of calling me a liar. Everyone else knew that my neighbors were unsaved because I witnessed to them--everyone but you. But you persisted in derailing this thread on that one point.Thinkingstuff said:
Enough said!
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