ok arminians a straight forward question

[massdak]

if the Lord is how the calvinist say and His elect are based only on His purpose and not conditioned at all on mans free will to choose as most arminians believe would you be willing to believe on this biblical Jesus?

would you consider God unfair for not giving every person ever born the same mercy and same grace as the saved have. or do you believe mercy is earned via making the right choice?

 

[Sularis]

ummm other then asking something that isnt really a question

heres your answer
God's justice is absolute - His mercy can be no less or more - whereever His justice applies there His mercy applies also if His justice applies to all men - then His mercy must do so as well - for God is neither a hangin judge nor is he a flower child

No choice anyone can make is good or powerful enough to save us - Ironically God in His power and wisdom requires us to first admit this - then admit that only He through His son Jesus can save us. Its funny that he requires us to do these actions in order for Him to save us - but neither of those actions have any effects or powers that save us.

 

[Abiyah]

Massdak --

This is what my husband is struggling with right now and what I once struggled with. When I was on the way out of holiness-Arminianism (which is a different dog altogether), I did not like the God I was being told was the true God. I thought Him unfair, cruel, mean, and so like the image I had of Him as a child. (As a child, I thought He was like a chess player, and I was one of the pawns; He would just move me around as He chose on that board. I did not like that god.)

Being still new to Calvinistic thought, I am still unable to completely come to terms with all phases of my God, but I know this: that our God is supreme, that He is omniscient, and that I can trust Him and His complete wisdom. I no longer need to try to be a little god, having my way; I am satisfied with Him as The God of my life, now and forever.

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Sularis:
ummm other then asking something that isnt really a question

heres your answer
God's justice is absolute - His mercy can be no less or more - whereever His justice applies there His mercy applies also if His justice applies to all men - then His mercy must do so as well - for God is neither a hangin judge nor is he a flower child

No choice anyone can make is good or powerful enough to save us - Ironically God in His power and wisdom requires us to first admit this - then admit that only He through His son Jesus can save us. Its funny that he requires us to do these actions in order for Him to save us - but neither of those actions have any effects or powers that save us.

Sularis, what you have said here is not scripturally sound at all

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Sularis:
ummm other then asking something that isnt really a question

heres your answer


Its funny that he requires us to do these actions in order for Him to save us -

actions???? do you speak of works?
my questions seem more clear then your answers.
and you still havent answered the questions.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Massdak --

This is what my husband is struggling with right now and what I once struggled with. When I was on the way out of holiness-Arminianism (which is a different dog altogether), I did not like the God I was being told was the true God. I thought Him unfair, cruel, mean, and so like the image I had of Him as a child. (As a child, I thought He was like a chess player, and I was one of the pawns; He would just move me around as He chose on that board. I did not like that god.)

Being still new to Calvinistic thought, I am still unable to completely come to terms with all phases of my God, but I know this: that our God is supreme, that He is omniscient, and that I can trust Him and His complete wisdom. I no longer need to try to be a little god, having my way; I am satisfied with Him as The God of my life, now and forever.

thank you for your reply Abiyah.
i would like to see you post on the baptist only forums also. and i can relate to what you are saying.

 

[Abiyah]

Thank you, Massdak. You're very gracious.

 

[Frogman]

Its funny that he requires us to do these actions in order for Him to save us

If this is true, then we have merited God's justice and his mercy and also his Grace, God has to 'save' us because we followed the 'required' actions and made the right choice.

that is why this is not part of salvation by Grace through faith.

Bro. Dallas

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Massdak;

If you were up to your waste in quick sand and I walked over and threw you a rope and told you to grab on and I'll pull you out. How is it you could claim you saved your self when all you did was grab on and place your faith in me to pull you out? You see you aquired faith by my word saying I'll pull you out. Faith is not a work. This is where your problem is. Your convinced that Faith is a work.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How is it a man who worketh not and at the same time has faith and still be a man who does no work? but yet his faith is counted for righteousness, ("which must not be a work"). What do we have here an oximoron or the truth that faith is not a work.

I wonder how one Calvinist can claim that faith is a gift and then call it a work when faith isn't either. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

The scientific fact is that for every action there is a reaction. There is no such thing as action with out reaction. I use math everyday in my work. Trust me it's a fact.

If Man has no choice, how is it that the Jews rejected Him. The Jews were elect or chosen there is no way you can get around that.
They had a choice and rejected Him. Just like millions of others do.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Your tale however clever is still just a tale. God first chose us to save. This is true but we must also choose to place our faith in Him that He will.

If you were in quick sand and you didn't have faith that I would pull you out. You'd die. In order for you to grab the rope you'd have to have faith that I'd save you. Even though you grabbed the rope, you still don't do anything to save your self. Want to know why Because I could decide not to save you if I chose to.
Regardless it's up to God to save us. Our faith doesn't make Him do it. His own promise is why He does.
"That whosoever believes in me" I believe in Him with all of me. I can't doubt His words because my faith has grown into knowing.How can I deny what I know to be true?

May God bless You;
Mike

 

[gb93433]

You would not have pulled me out unless I grabbed the rope that you tossed to me. It is much the same way with God.

In Eph. 2:8,9 garce is God's part faith isour response.

Heb 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

 

[Abiyah]

One of the cards people liked to toss on the table, in my holiness-Arminian background, was that our God did not create robots: that He gave us choice -- a chance to either choose or refuse Him. This argument, although weak, speaks loudly to Americans, who love to think of themselves as free, as "pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps," as the authors and keepers of choice, etc.

 

[gb93433]

I don't see it as God alone or man alone. God in his wisdom chose to work with us. He gave us all we need for faith and practice. But some choose to go their own way of destruction. If it were not for God's grace all of us wouild be doomed. But he gave us Jesus but not all will recieve Him. I believe it is a working together in union with God. Isn't that what John 15 talks about?

I think too often we deal in hypothetical situations of American theology. I have noticed that OSAS is now being questioend by many.Recently I asked two of my friends if that waqs ever an issue in the communist countries they served. They said, "Never."

John 1:12, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Abiyah;

This argument, although weak, speaks loudly to Americans, who love to think of themselves as free, as "pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps,"

How ever weak you may feel being saved through faith is, it is the strongest point of Salvation. Although my faith was weak to start with it was made strong by Him. In fact my weakness showed just how strong He is.

May you be blessed with the truth;
Mike

 

[Frogman]

Heb 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Above is a very important passage of scripture, look at it in all its parts, what is being said?

</font>

• And without faith it is impossible to please him</font>
• For he who comes to God must believe</font>

Pretty clear isn't it, you must believe these things, and you will come to God in faith, now, how can a man who is dead in trespasses and sin have any trust in God?

In the 'quicksand' story above, though a beautiful story, God doesn't just throw the rope toward us hoping we will grasp it, few indeed would be able to grab it, not because they do not 'sense' the presence of an eternal being who has created all things and themselves included, but because they are being brought by a way they know not. They are 'resting' in God through Christ,

I just can't explain it any better than Heb. 11.6 does, to be any clearer imho, would be impossible.

Here it is again:

Heb 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

Is our eternal life a reward for those who seek him?

The Bible simply says, without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe He is,

Line this up with Jesus' statement that no man can come to the Father except by him and also that no man can come to him except it were given to him by the Father, Well, a pretty clear teaching of soteriology, called Calvinism among men, but really only the Doctrines of Grace.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Abiyah]

ILUVLIGHT wrote:[qb]
Hi Abiyah;

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> This argument, although weak, speaks loudly to Americans, who love to think of themselves as free, as "pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps,"

How ever weak you may feel being saved through faith is, it is the strongest point of Salvation. Although my faith was weak to start with it was made strong by Him. In fact my weakness showed just how strong He is.

May you be blessed with the truth;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]I am sorry, but you misquoted me. I wrote:

One of the cards people liked to toss on the table, in my holiness-Arminian background, was that our God did not create robots: that He gave us choice -- a chance to either choose or refuse Him. This argument, although weak. . . .

 

[Hischild]

I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian.
I'm thankful that it's not essential to Salvation for me to be one or the other.
I would love to learn more about both.
I have had many Calvinists tell me that because I'm not a Calvinist, then I am by default an Arminian. I fail to see the logic behind that.

I didn't realize this part of the forum was here before.
I will be following it closely so that I can learn more about both Calvinism and Arminian beliefs.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Frogman;
A quote from you;
Pretty clear isn't it, you must believe these things, and you will come to God in faith, now, how can a man who is dead in trespasses and sin have any trust in God?
My Reply;
No one denies that man has to come to God in faith but faith comes by hearing and Calvinism mistakenly portrays man as deaf. It seems clear to me that Calvinism would like to defeat evangelism. Salvation is an offer to the world and all the world is elected to hear the gospel which is why we are commanded to preach the gospel to the whole world of man, every living creature.
The sovereignty of God is not diminished at all because He choose to allow man to make a choice so that the Love God receives is genuine.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Abiyah;
I can see where you might think that I missed quoted you. I wasn't trying to. You were saying that the argument is weak and it appears that I made it say Faith is weak . I appoligize for the misquote
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Abiyah]

Thank you, Mike, and the apology, although unnecessary, is certainly accepted.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by massdak:
if the Lord is how the calvinist say and His elect are based only on His purpose and not conditioned at all on mans free will to choose as most arminians believe would you be willing to believe on this biblical Jesus?

No. How could I be? If I can only believe on Him if he causes me to believe on him, then if I don't believe it I can't be willing to. Remeber total depravity???!!! If Calvinism is true, then I can only become willing to accept Jesus AFTER God has saved me and made me born again. In fact, if Calvinism is true then it is GOD who makes me accept this Jesus. So, either Calvinism is true, and I am UNABLE to accept this; or it is untrue, and I reject it.