OK for a woman to baptize?

[Brother Bob]

Well, I am a member of a So. Baptist church, but I really wonder if all SBC churches can really be considered of "like faith and order", a phrase I grew up hearing. I strongly suspect some non- SBC baptist churches, are far closer to being of "like faith and order" than some SBC churches. And I, as well as my home church are very Biblically conservative, doctrinally, if not traditionally, as to practices that are extra-Bibilical, at best.

And some churches that do not even identify themselves as "Baptist" are far closer to this than some SBC churches. Let's not go overboard in 'identifying' by the name on the church sign. It may, too often, not be enough of a tell-all description.

Ed

Please tell your wife I said God Bless and I will pray for her........., just kidding Ed; I really wish you and your lovely bride a very good and long life. I pray you love each other as much as my wife and I do.

Of course age works some times and others it does not. I believe with what I am affiliated with are a very good Christian group and really are of the same faith and order with some slight exception from time to time, of which we have lost some churches over the years.

I also suspect to become a part of SBC, you have to sign an agreement with them or at least present a letter acknowledging their beliefs and practices, even though we both know, there is quite a bit of division in SBC as of now.

I know, to have a "Union" as SBC, you would have to have "articles of Faith" or some agreement that all, for the sake of "Union" agree to. I can see some things coming to SBC that is going to try that agreement. I suspect your church presented to SBC a letter of fellowship and by doing so, you agree with their articles of faith or some common bond.
Even the Lord said to show respect for the Elders Ed.

 

[EdSutton]

The possibility of women baptizing reappears in the Praescriptio Haereticorum. This work indicates that there were in Carthage Christians apparently less interested in the creative tension of gift and office, since Tertullian attacks groups whose hierarchy is entirely fluid:

The very women of these heretics, how wanton they are! For they are bold enough to teach, to dispute, to enact exorcisms, to undertake cures - it may be even to baptize. Their ordinations, are carelessly. administered, capricious, changeable. At one time they put novices in office; at another time, men who are bound to some secular employment; at another, persons who have apostatized from us,​

The first paragraph you have quoted, rather unwittingly, has a generally overlooked key to this discussion. It is the phrase "in the creative tension of gift and office". This is something I have raised on the BB many times.

Why are we so determined to confuse and confute the gifts and the offices, as Baptists? While the elders/bishops have a 'charge' and responsibility of 'shepherding' the flock, there is not one verse of Scripture that says the 'office' of 'elder/bishop' is the same as the 'gift' of 'pastor and teacher'. One requirement for a bishop is to be "able to teach". But there is no corresponding verse or verses that say that they must have this particular 'Spiritual gift'. And in fact, I Tim. 5:17 which says " Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.", would surely suggest that not all elders, although they all do 'rule', labor in the word and doctrine. In other words, not all of 'em have the gift of pastor and teacher or teacher.

Ed
​

 

[Brother Bob]

Why are we so determined to confuse and confute the gifts and the offices, as Baptists? While the elders/bishops have a 'charge' and responsibility of 'shepherding' the flock, there is not one verse of Scripture that says the 'office' of 'elder/bishop' is the same as the 'gift' of 'pastor and teacher'. One requirement for a bishop is to be "able to teach". But there is no corresponding verse or verses that say that they must have this particular 'Spiritual gift'. And in fact, I Tim. 5:17 which says " Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.", would surely suggest that not all elders, although they all do 'rule', labor in the word and doctrine. In other words, not all of 'em have the gift of pastor and teacher or teacher.

Ed

I would like to say they are all equal and we try and hold them as such, but what controls what authority unfortuantly or fortuantly, I am not sure, is how well that Elder or Pastor communicates with the masses. It is true also with SBC, you leader is mostly chosen on his popularity more than his knowledge of the scripture, I am sure. You know Ed, if all the churches had a large congregations and members, with a large tithe base, they could have all these different offices you talk of, but most churches are not large, but membership of 100 or less people and a Pastor usually holds all the offices you talk of.

 

[EdSutton]

He did not say a women can baptize.So they better not do it.

Nor did he say that they could not, either. Can a woman prophesy or pray in public??

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy. ...' (Acts 2:16-18, NKJV)

8 On the next day we who were Paul’s companions[b] departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. (Acts 21: 8-9 , NKJV)


4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? (I Cor. 11:4-13, NKJV)

I dunno'! Sure looks to me like some of 'em did!

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

I have read several of the posts on this controversial subject. Is there any efficacy in the one baptizing? No, then why can't a woman baptize? Because we find no example of a woman baptizing in the NT. Every instance of baptizing done in the book of Acts has a male baptizing.

At issue here is the regulative principle and the normative principle. We have examples only of males baptizing. Should this then regulate all subequent baptisms? Or should we allow women to baptize because the bible doesn't forbid them from doing it?

And what do we think of baptism? What really is baptism? And who should administer it? I believe our view on baptism will help us answer the question as to Who should baptize.

 

[Brother Bob]

And what do we think of baptism? What really is baptism? And who should administer it? I believe on view on baptism will help us answer the question to the Who should baptize.__________________

Baptism to me is answering a commandment of God, confessing before the world that Jesus is your savior and baptizing is the entrance into the visible part of the church, or it is in all the churches I know. So, it comes under the authority of the Church after all is said and done. If your church will not accept the work of a woman baptizing, then it would do no good for them to baptize someone and bring them to the church for membership. To me, if a woman brought a person, who she had baptized, to the church for membership, it would be usurping authority over the authority of that church, therefore against the scripture. But that is just me and our church and association. They would be wasting their time, time of the church to do so, for we would not accept. We might even bring that woman up before the church for practicing something she was not ordained to do, as a matter of fact, I know she would be brought before the church.

 

[EdSutton]

The Bible does address women being pastors. That's easy.
The Bible does give women instructions on teaching, etc. Also easy.

The Bible is silent on women...

• taking up offering
• baptizing
• running the sound system
• name it

So your Scriptural argument from silence...does it address these things as well?

I don't believe "The Bible does address women being pastors." I have demonstrated in my post #102 that there is a difference between the offices and the gifts. And the only qualification I can find to the "spiritual gifts", of which pastor and teacher is one of the ones listed, is the discretion of God, the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12: 4-11) That is not the same as the offices. The office of bishop/elder has a large number of qualifications. One of those is to be "the husband of one wife". I guess I could be wrong on this , but I sorta' tend to conclude that that limits the 'office' of bishop (or overseer) to men only.

Hey that was easy! Just keep the offices and gifts separate, as does Scripture!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't believe "The Bible does address women being pastors

Does it even address the office of a Pastor, is there a office of a Pastor?

Ed; in my profile it is listed as "Pastor", when in fact I am a "Elder" and a "Moderator" of our church. That is what the leaders of our churches are called, where most others call Pastor. I didn't know when I first came to BB that you all would know, what I was talking about, when I told you I was a "Moderator" for the last 25 years and 18 years now at the church I now serve. I realize now that there are many on here that are familiar with what a "Moderator" is, which is not even in the scripture, so I will answer to just calling me Bob.

Office of an Elder?
1Ti 5:1¶Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;

Don't see a woman there.

 

[TCGreek]

Baptism to me is answering a commandment of God, confessing before the world that Jesus is your savior and baptizing is the entrance into the visible part of the church, or it is in all the churches I know. So, it comes under the authority of the Church after all is said and done. If your church will not accept the work of a woman baptizing, then it would do no good for them to baptize someone and bring them to the church for membership. To me, if a woman brought a person, who she had baptized, to the church for membership, it would be usurping authority over the authority of that church, therefore against the scripture. But that is just me and our church and association. They would be wasting their time, time of the church to do so, for we would not accept. We might even bring that woman up before the church for practicing something she was not ordained to do, as a matter of fact, I know she would be brought before the church.

To be honest, as a pastor, I have never really given much thought to a woman baptizing. But I like your church's position on the matter. I wish I could say that I have a firm position on it, but I don't. I have never really had to deal with it before. It went without saying that a male does the baptizing.

The Scripture is definitely silent on a woman baptizing. However, we have examples of males administering baptism. That should count for something. Again, it comes down to our view of baptism and the issue of the regulative and normative principles.

Brother Bob, it is good that your church has taken a stance on the matter.

 

[EdSutton]

Does it even address the office of a Pastor, is there a office of a Pastor?

Is there an office of pastor? Not that I can find in Scripture. And of course, a non-existent office would not be addressed.

Bishop and overseer are two English renditions of the same word, " 'επισˊκοπος - or 'epis'kopos ". Elder is the English rendition of the word "πρεσβυˊτερος - or presbu'teros ". That these are the one and the same office can be seen from Acts 20: 17, 28, and Tit. 1: 5-7. That is the only Biblical office, to which I am referring in this thread, at least thus far. So yes, that office would cover all three terms I used.

And I will add, nowhere in the Scripture do I find there to be less than a 'plurality' of the office in a church, in the Biblical model. But the spirit of Diotrophes still lives, and still loves to have the pre-eminence in the church, even today!

1 The Elder,
To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth:
9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. 10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.
11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but[d] he who does evil has not seen God.
12 Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true. (III John 1, 9-12 , NKJV)

Amazing that Diotrophes somehow always seems to overshadow Gaius and Demetrius!

Ed

 

[charles_creech78]

no one has to teach or preach to be saved...or have children. What about our single and/or barren friends?

He said go down to the potters house and there I will cause you to hear my word,where by ye must be saved. Go ye and preach the gospel baptising them in the name of the father the son and the holy ghost. Romans Chapter 10 vers 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?You must hear the word of God to be saved.The word of God is JESUS CHRIST. And for the barren if they have faith, charity and holiness with sobriety they shall be saved. For by Grace through faith are ye saved.

 

[TCGreek]

Is there an office of pastor? Not that I can find in Scripture. And of course, a non-existent office would not be addressed.

Bishop and overseer are two English renditions of the same word, " 'επισˊκοπος - or 'epis'kopos ". Elder is the English rendition of the word "πρεσβυˊτερος - or presbu'teros ". That these are the one and the same office can be seen from Acts 20: 17, 28, and Tit. 1: 5-7. That is the only Biblical office, to which I am referring in this thread, at least thus far. So yes, that office would cover all three terms I used.

And I will add, nowhere in the Scripture do I find there to be less than a 'plurality' of the office in a church, in the Biblical model. But the spirit of Diotrophes still lives, and still loves to have the pre-eminence in the church, even today! Amazing that Diotrophes somehow always seems to overshadow Gaius and Demetrius!

Ed

I am with you on this one that elders, bishops, pastors were all considered one and the same function, merely descriptive terms for the one function, in plurality.:thumbs:

 

[EdSutton]

I would like to say they are all equal and we try and hold them as such, but what controls what authority unfortuantly or fortuantly, I am not sure, is how well that Elder or Pastor communicates with the masses. It is true also with SBC, you leader is mostly chosen on his popularity more than his knowledge of the scripture, I am sure. You know Ed, if all the churches had a large congregations and members, with a large tithe base, they could have all these different offices you talk of, but most churches are not large, but membership of 100 or less people and a Pastor usually holds all the offices you talk of.

Maybe I'm being a bit too simplistic, but I simply refuse to believe in most churches of 100 or so, one cannot find anyone other than "the pastor" who can fit the qualifications for an elder given in Scripture. Diotrophes, anyone??

Ed

 

[charles_creech78]

I don't believe "The Bible does address women being pastors." I have demonstrated in my post #102 that there is a difference between the offices and the gifts. And the only qualification I can find to the "spiritual gifts", of which pastor and teacher is one of the ones listed, is the discretion of God, the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12: 4-11) That is not the same as the offices. The office of bishop/elder has a large number of qualifications. One of those is to be "the husband of one wife". I guess I could be wrong on this , but I sorta' tend to conclude that that limits the 'office' of bishop (or overseer) to men only.

Hey that was easy! Just keep the offices and gifts separate, as does Scripture!

Ed

Show me this Scripture that a women can do these things.Make it with chapter and vers.to

 

[Brother Bob]

I am with you on this one that elders, bishops, pastors were all considered one and the same function, merely descriptive terms for the one function.:thumbs:

I agree too and what was added was before we came trotting along. I have no problem with Pastor whatsoever for we use Moderator and it not a biblical term either but I can see why the brethren began to use it who knows when for we are to guide the church to work in order. Also, Pastor is the leader of the flock, and we do not hold, and I do not want the office of "boss", we are indeed supposed to lead, with the help of the Grace of God. If we are anything at al,l it only as Paul says, the Grace of God. If you came to our church, you would see a free spirit at work, when we are doing our church work. I feel as any of my brethren are more worthy than I, and can truthfully say due to my age and sickness, if they wanted someone else to lead, I would gladly step aside. I would like to spend my winters in Fla. anyway.

 

[Brother Bob]

Diotrophes, anyone??

Do you think that pride is among us Ed?

Maybe I'm being a bit too simplistic, but I simply refuse to believe in most churches of 100 or so, one cannot find anyone other than "the pastor" who can fit the qualifications for an elder given in Scripture. Diotrophes, anyone??

Ed

I am going by all the churches within say 50 mile circumfence, that has around 100 members. There are no large churches that I know of close around. Besides that, I say that because of how almost everyone on here that are leaders of churches have spoken on membership.

"The Pastor" is the same as "The Moderator", it is not scripture. I have no problem with either, just stating what I believe to be the truth.

 

[EdSutton]

I am with you on this one that elders, bishops, pastors were all considered one and the same function, merely descriptive terms for the one function, in plurality.:thumbs:

No you are not but half with me on this, if you have been reading what I have said. I have never, on the pages of the BB in a year and a half of posts, equated 'pastor' with 'elder/bishop', and have not made that error for now 35 years +.
In fact, I have been very explicit that pastor is always spoken of in Scripture as a spiritual gift, and 'elder' is by contrast, always spoken of as an office. And that the two are not the same. Re-read my posts on this thread to see that. I certainly don't want to sound 'mean', but do want to sound 'forceful'.

But we do agree on the plurality of elders, so I guess we do agree on half.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

No you are not but half with me on this, if you have been reading what I have said. I have never, on the pages of the BB in a year and a half of posts, equated 'pastor' with 'elder/bishop', and have not made that error for now 35 years +.
In fact, I have been very explicit that pastor is always spoken of in Scripture as a spiritual gift, and 'elder' is by contrast, always spoken of as an office. And that the two are not the same. Re-read my posts on this thread to see that. I certainly don't want to sound 'mean', but do want to sound 'forceful'.

But we do agree on the plurality of elders, so I guess we agree on half.

Ed

Could you give us scripture on "Pastor"?

I have never, on the pages of the BB in a year and a half of posts, equated 'pastor' with 'elder/bishop'

Also, being you are so set on who a Pastor is. Why do you think he could not also serve the offices of Elder and Bishop?
What would disqualify him. I think I know the answer. I think you believe a Pastor could be a "lay" member, am I right?

 

[EdSutton]

Show me this Scripture that a women can do these things.Make it with chapter and vers.to

What are you referring to by "these things"? "Ah 'on't get it!", as my nephew would say.

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

Maybe I'm being a bit too simplistic, but I simply refuse to believe in most churches of 100 or so, one cannot find anyone other than "the pastor" who can fit the qualifications for an elder given in Scripture. Diotrophes, anyone??Ed

I agree that I have seen some with the spirit of Diotrephes. But let us pray for more with the right spirit.

Neither do I believe that the pastor or minister/preacher, for so he was originally called, is over the elders. Both the pastor and the elders should look out for the health of God's people. They must work along side each other.

However, their roles are different: the pastor should labor in the preaching of the Word and casting the vision for the church. The elders should care for the flock and see that the church is heading in the right direction, while supporting the pastor.