OK for a woman to baptize?

[charles_creech78]

Brother Bob] I love singing them old time songs

 

[EdSutton]

Could you give us scripture on "Pastor"?

"Soitenly!"

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.Spiritual Gifts


7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:


“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”[b]
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. (Eph. 4: 1-16 , NKJV , cp. I Cor. 12)

That is it! The one and only time one can find the noun "pastor" in the entire Bible is in verse 11.

And did you notice that 'gift' or 'give' is found four times in the context?

And did you also notice that 'office' is found exactly zero times in the same context?

Ed

 

[charles_creech78]

Could you give us scripture on "Pastor"?

I am a old regular baptist to. I go to the New Home Church Of jesus Christ in North Carolina. I do not now if we fellowship or not.You can alway tell a Old Regular Baptist because they say they LOVE that old time way.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is it! The one and only time one can find the noun "pastor" in the entire Bible is in verse 11. And did you notice that 'gift' or 'give' is found four times in the context? And did you also notice that 'office' is found exactly zero times?

Ed

4166
poimhn
poimen
poy-mane'
of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

It doesn't give us much on the qualifications does it?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob] I love singing them old time songs

Me too, I sing on my Web Site, but it is personal songs that I sing when I come to preach. I am of the Sardis Association, in fellowship with the New Salem Association. Who are you with?

Seems like we have a church in NC, but not sure.

New Salem has a New Home but its in IND.

 

[EdSutton]

Do you think that pride is among us Ed?


I am going by all the churches within say 50 mile circumfence, that has around 100 members. There are no large churches that I know of close around. Besides that, I say that because of how almost everyone on here that are leaders of churches have spoken on membership.

"The Pastor" is the same as "The Moderator", it is not scripture. I have no problem with either, just stating what I believe to be the truth.

I have not said nor do I now say anything about pride. Nor did "the Elder", when speaking of Diotrophes, but he did speak of him 'loving to have the "pre-einence" (or be the 'top-dog') in that church'.

And I never mentioned anything about large churches, either. I was speaking about churches of 100 or so, as per your post. Are you realistically saying that in none of these churches you know of, there is not even one other "lay" person who can fit the qualifications for elder in I Tim. 3 and Titus 1?? That still to me seems unthinkable!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I have not said nor do I now say anything about pride. Nor did "the Elder" speaking of Diotrophes> but he did speak of his loving to have the "pre-einence" (or be the 'top-dog') in that church.

And I never mentioned anything about large churches, either. I was speaking about churches of 100 or so, as per your post. Are you realistically saying that in none of these churches you know of, not even one other "lay" person who can fit the qualifications for elder in I. Tim. 3 and Titus 1?? That still to me seems unthinkable!

Ed

I have not idea what you are saying whatsoever. Now, I explained about me wanting to be top dog, I do not. It was put upon my shoulders years ago, because of respect for me and my ability to do the job. So far, I have not fallen on my face. Now I am lost to what you are saying about the 100. We must be talking about two different things. I am saying the membership of most churches around here are about 100 members. It has nothing to do with a lay person or elder, just stating on the average, how many members per church, Comprehende?

 

[HankD]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;​

The word (as someone has already mentioned) is poimen and is found 17 times in the NT, translated as "shepherd".​

Matt. 9:36
Matt. 25:32
Matt. 26:31
Mk. 6:34
Mk. 14:27
Lk. 2:8
Lk. 2:15
Lk. 2:18
Lk. 2:20
Jn. 10:2
Jn. 10:11
Jn. 10:12
Jn. 10:14
Jn. 10:16
Eph. 4:11
Heb. 13:20
1 Pet. 2:25

The function of a pastor-shepherd is in John 21:17 "Feed my sheep".


HankD​

 

[Brother Bob]

I have not said nor do I now say anything about pride. Nor did "the Elder", when speaking of Diotrophes, but he did speak of him 'loving to have the "pre-einence" (or be the 'top-dog') in that church'.

You brought up Diotrophes without saying why. It causes people to wonder, for he is know for his pride. We knew you had a reason for bringing him into the discussion, but you failed to explain why.

BBob

 

[EdSutton]

Could you give us scripture on "Pastor"?



Also, being you are so set on who a Pastor is. Why do you think he could not also serve the offices of Elder and Bishop?
What would disqualify him. I think I know the answer. I think you believe a Pastor could be a "lay" member, am I right?

An elder may well have the gift of pastor, and probably many do. That elder might also have only the gift of evangelist, administration, helps, or showing mercy, by the same token. And he may well have more than one gift, too. It is just not said anywhere that the gift of pastor and teacher is a 'requirement' for the office of elder, as I have previously posted.

And one with the gift of pastor and teacher may just as easily not be an elder, by the same token. Guess that would make one a "lay" member, hunh?
Oh BTW, my own five times great, grandfather, Squire Boone, Jr. was the first Baptist preacher to set foot west of the Alleghenies, and the first Baptist to preach a sermon in KY. He was a "lay" preacher, FTR.

I think I have made my position fairly clear on pastor and elder; gift and office. If it is not clear by now, it will never be, for some. I shall not intend to take any more pages on this thread to touch on that, wanting to get back to baptism.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The word (as someone has already mentioned) is poimen and is found 17 times in the NT, translated as "shepherd".​

Matt. 9:36
Matt. 25:32
Matt. 26:31
Mk. 6:34
Mk. 14:27
Lk. 2:8
Lk. 2:15
Lk. 2:18
Lk. 2:20
Jn. 10:2
Jn. 10:11
Jn. 10:12
Jn. 10:14
Jn. 10:16
Eph. 4:11
Heb. 13:20
1 Pet. 2:25

The function of a pastor-shepherd is in John 21:17 "Feed my sheep".


HankD​

Thank you HankD;
But is there anywhere mentioned the qualifications of a sheppard or Pastor, except feed my sheep, or feed my lambs.​

 

[Brother Bob]

And one with the gift of pastor and teacher may just as easily not be an elder, by the same token. Guess that would make one a "lay" member, hunh?
Oh BTW, my own five times great, grandfather, Squire Boone, Jr. was the first Baptist preacher to set foot west of the Alleghenies, and the first Baptist to preach a sermon in KY. He was a "lay" preacher, FTR.

We have many "lay" members who preach sermons. Tis no great thing that Squire Boone Jr. did also. If they continue to grow, we eventually ordain them. I had a 3 or 4th great Uncle by the name of William Scott, who was with Daniel Boone when he was in Kentucky. His brother is buried on my land. I tend his grave as long as I have the health.

I think I have made my position fairly clear on pastor and elder; gift and office. If it is not clear by now, it will never be, for some. I shall not intend to take any more pages on this thread to touch on that, wanting to get back to baptism.

Ed

For the life of me, I do not understand you keep bringing it up. It is as it is. We have Pastors and all that I know are ordained. If that rubs you raw, so be it. Peace,

 

[EdSutton]

My opinion only. I would ask Lucy which local congregation authorized her to baptze. If it was a congregation of like faith and order, then we'd go through the drill. If she's the Lone Ranger, no dice.

Question two, the answer is no. Baptism is done under the authority of a local church, which must first determine if the candidate gives evidence of salvation.

Somebody refresh my memory. Didn't Roger Williams and Ezekiel Holloman baptize each other back in the 1630s or thereabout?

If baptism is done under the authority of the local church, what local church authorized the baptism of Williams and Hollyman? And if they were not Scripturally baptized, and most of us as Baptists trace our lineage back to Roger Williams, would it not be fair to say that no one since has been Scripturally baptized, either, since we cannot trace this line of baptism back to the Apostles?

I submit that while in practice, baptism is usually done under "the authority of a local church", Biblically that is nowhere stated. And what church can we say gave Philip the authority to baptize the Ethiopian eunech, whether or not by 'determining if the candidate gave evidence of salvation'? Seems to me he was in an awful hurry to get baptized, if I remember my Scripture correctly. "See? Water! What does hinder me from being baptized?" I don't see that Philip took him before the church; rather, he baptized him right then and there!

Likewise, the twelve disciples Paul found at Ephesus when he arrived there for the first time. What church did they go before? Seems they were baptized at the time, and BTW, it does not say Paul actually did the baptizin'! Only says he did the preachin'! You can find these in Acts 8 and 19, I believe.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

You brought up Diotrophes without saying why. It causes people to wonder, for he is know for his pride. We knew you had a reason for bringing him into the discussion, but you failed to explain why.
BBob

Once again, Scripture says not one word about Diotrophes having 'pride', so how come "he is known for that"?. It does say he loved 'control', as I read it. I'm glad if neither pride nor control is a problem with you (as I hope it is not with me, save in t hecross of our Lord Jesus Christ, as Paul put it), or with anyone else, for that matter.

Good place to stand, IMO.

But I add, 'ruling' the assembly is part of the job description for the elders, as I posted before.

G' nite, all.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Once again, Scripture says not one word about Diotrophes having 'pride', so how come "he is known for that"?.

It would be hard for me to distinguish this from pride, and its what says the scripture.

5383
filoprwteuw
philoproteuo
fil-op-rote-yoo'-o
from a compound of filoV - philos 5384 and prwtoV - protos 4413; to be fond of being first, i.e. ambitious of distinction:--love to have the preeminence.

 

[charles_creech78]

If baptism is done under the authority of the local church, what local church authorized the baptism of Williams and Hollyman? And if they were not Scripturally baptized, and most of us as Baptists trace our lineage back to Roger Williams, would it not be fair to say that no one since has been Scripturally baptized, either, since we cannot trace this line of baptism back to the Apostles?

I submit that while in practice, baptism is usually done under "the authority of a local church", Biblically that is nowhere stated. And what church can we say gave Philip the authority to baptize the Ethiopian eunech, whether or not by 'determining if the candidate gave evidence of salvation'? Seems to me he was in an awful hurry to get baptized, if I remember my Scripture correctly. "See? Water! What does hinder me from being baptized?" I don't see that Philip took him before the church; rather, he baptized him right then and there!

Likewise, the twelve disciples Paul found at Ephesus when he arrived there for the first time. What church did they go before? Seems they were baptized at the time, and BTW, it does not say Paul actually did the baptizin'! Only says he did the preachin'! You can find these in Acts 8 and 19, I believe.

Ed

Acts Chapter 8 vers 36 And as they went on their way they came unto a certain water and the eunuch said See here is water;what doth hinder me to be baptized? vers.37 And Philip said, If thou believest with ALL thine Heart,thou mayest.And he answered and said,I believe that Jesus Christ IS THE SON OF GOD.And he comanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into into the water,both philip and the eunuch;and he baptist him.
This is what the scripture says. The Church is not a BUILDING, IT IS THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

 

[EdSutton]

and he baptist him.

Well, I guess this is a 'Baptist Only' thread! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Acts Chapter 8 vers 36 And as they went on their way they came unto a certain water and the eunuch said See here is water;what doth hinder me to be baptized? vers.37 And Philip said, If thou believest with ALL thine Heart,thou mayest.And he answered and said,I believe that Jesus Christ IS THE SON OF GOD.And he comanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into into the water,both philip and the eunuch;and he baptist him.
This is what the scripture says. The Church is not a BUILDING, IT IS THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

Since you tacked this onto my post, what is your point? I agree fully that the church is the people, and have never said otherwise. But, as I said, in response to another post, what group of people were these two cases taken before for 'examination'?? I simply don't see any.

And I did not comment on the virtually complete lack of textual support for Acts 8:37 in the Greek manuscripts, because that was not germane to the question asked, FTR.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Mat 18:20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I guess Philip and the Lord made two.

 

[charles_creech78]

Mat 18:20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I guess Philip and the Lord made two.

Amen Brother Bob