OK... I still have these nagging questions:

[av1611jim]

It is quite evident that not only were you trained in dispensationalism, but you were also trained in Millenial Exclusion... so much training that your mind has been programmed to reject the truth.

I suppose you are entitled to your OPINION. But I REJECT your conclusion.:laugh:

For what it is worth, sir; answer just ONE question. Can you show that God corrects/chastizes/disciplines/punishes us (His children) for disobedience to Him in THIS LIFE ONLY???????

Or are you of the popular opinion that believers have NO FEAR OF GOD since Jesus "paid it all"? If this is your position then by the verdict of Scripture you are UNWISE.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[DHK]

Why don't you help us out by explaining what kind of evidence you will accept? We have been doing these threads over and over for what, three years? What about 1Cor 3:17?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
What does defiling the temple mean in chapter 3, and what does Paul mean when he says God will destroy any man that defiles the temple?

Good starting point. First lets put in context with the preceding verse:

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Next lets compare it with a similar passage:

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In chapter 3 the temple referred to is the local church. The pronouns are plural. When the church allows false teachers to enter in and teach false doctrine God will destroy that church. We have seen that happen many times over. Every liberal church that denies the deity of Christ and other fundamental doctrines is no longer a church in God's eyes. A church is composed of saved baptized believers. Believers make up the church (people); not a building. Here the Lord is speakng of the church; not individuals. The destruction simply means that the existence of that church would be no more. That is the believers would be scattered, or something to that effect. It is not speaking of a spiritual judgement.

In chapter six, I included verse 18 to show that the context is speaking on an individual level. Each one of them in the church were a temple of the Holy Spirit. Each one of the belonged to God. Each one of the were bought with a price--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus. Taking that into consideration we are to take care of our bodies and use them for the Lord's service. Our lives are not our own to do with as we please. They belong to God. The emphasis is different.
Chapter three is speaking to the church as a corporate body. Chapter six is speaking to individuals in the church.

 

[James_Newman]

Good starting point. First lets put in context with the preceding verse:

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Next lets compare it with a similar passage:

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In chapter 3 the temple referred to is the local church. The pronouns are plural. When the church allows false teachers to enter in and teach false doctrine God will destroy that church. We have seen that happen many times over. Every liberal church that denies the deity of Christ and other fundamental doctrines is no longer a church in God's eyes. A church is composed of saved baptized believers. Believers make up the church (people); not a building. Here the Lord is speakng of the church; not individuals. The destruction simply means that the existence of that church would be no more. That is the believers would be scattered, or something to that effect. It is not speaking of a spiritual judgement.

So what the bible should have said is 'whatsoever temple gets defiled, God will destroy that temple?' No, Paul said that the man who defiles the temple, God will destroy him. You are right that false teachings will defile the temple. But the teachers are the ones warned of destruction, not the church.

In chapter six, I included verse 18 to show that the context is speaking on an individual level. Each one of them in the church were a temple of the Holy Spirit. Each one of the belonged to God. Each one of the were bought with a price--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus. Taking that into consideration we are to take care of our bodies and use them for the Lord's service. Our lives are not our own to do with as we please. They belong to God. The emphasis is different.
Chapter three is speaking to the church as a corporate body. Chapter six is speaking to individuals in the church.

Lets just deal with chapter 3 for now.

 

[DHK]

So what the bible should have said is 'whatsoever temple gets defiled, God will destroy that temple?' No, Paul said that the man who defiles the temple, God will destroy him. You are right that false teachings will defile the temple. But the teachers are the ones warned of destruction, not the church.

Lets just deal with chapter 3 for now.

No, "any man" is right. Any false teacher that tries to destroy God's church God will "destroy" or more accurate, bring punishment. We are not in the place to ascertain how God will punish such an individual. He may bring death which ultimately brings punishment in Hell. Or he may destroy the man physically in some other way so that his attack on the church will be stopped. God has many options available to Him. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord; I will repay."
The verse speaks of unsaved false teachers trying to destroy God's church.

 

[James_Newman]

No, "any man" is right. Any false teacher that tries to destroy God's church God will "destroy" or more accurate, bring punishment. We are not in the place to ascertain how God will punish such an individual. He may bring death which ultimately brings punishment in Hell. Or he may destroy the man physically in some other way so that his attack on the church will be stopped. God has many options available to Him. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord; I will repay."
The verse speaks of unsaved false teachers trying to destroy God's church.

Where did you get the revelation that Paul was speaking of unsaved folks? It says 'any man'. Could 'any man' somehow exclude saved folks that nevertheless teach false doctrines? And it doesn't say anything about trying to destroy God's church either. What in verse 12 does Paul use to illustrate the defiling of the temple?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I suppose you are entitled to your OPINION. But I REJECT your conclusion.:laugh:

For what it is worth, sir; answer just ONE question. Can you show that God corrects/chastizes/disciplines/punishes us (His children) for disobedience to Him in THIS LIFE ONLY???????

Or are you of the popular opinion that believers have NO FEAR OF GOD since Jesus "paid it all"? If this is your position then by the verdict of Scripture you are UNWISE.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I can give you one such instance of God chastising in this lifetime.

For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Corinthians 11:30)

There are many more instances in God's Word.

 

[av1611jim]

SFiC;
I said in this life ONLY. Which you did not provide.

 

[DHK]

Where did you get the revelation that Paul was speaking of unsaved folks? It says 'any man'. Could 'any man' somehow exclude saved folks that nevertheless teach false doctrines? And it doesn't say anything about trying to destroy God's church either. What in verse 3 does Paul use to illustrate the defiling of the temple?

1. The church is composed of believers.
2. The NT church of Acts were of one accord. Unity was a charateristic. Pau was trying to teach the same here.
3. Who would be the ones that would be attacking a unified body of believers trying to do God's work--people from the inside or people from the outside? Whatever the case they were false teachers--that is how a work is destroyed.
4. A false teacher is not normally a saved person.

If he was a saved person then the destroy (lit. punsihment) would no doubt refer to the "sin of death" or physical death. There are many false teachers who profess to be saved and yet are destroying their own churches with doctrine that is not true, that is also true.

 

[av1611jim]

DHK;
Since you and James have taken hold of this PAULINE doctrinal example of Accountability, I will defer to him so as not to add to your confusion.

God bless you brother.

 

[James_Newman]

1. The church is composed of believers.

Are you sure?

2. The NT church of Acts were of one accord. Unity was a charateristic. Pau was trying to teach the same here.

Does they get saved by being in unity?
1 Corinthians 1:10-12
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Apparently they were all divided and yet they were all saved.

3. Who would be the ones that would be attacking a unified body of believers trying to do God's work--people from the inside or people from the outside? Whatever the case they were false teachers--that is how a work is destroyed.

It says nothing in the scripture about 'attacking' the temple. Those that are defiling the temple are just doing their job of building. The problem is that they are building with the wrong materials, wood, hay and stubble instead of gold, silver and precious stones.

4. A false teacher is not normally a saved person.

If he was a saved person then the destroy (lit. punsihment) would no doubt refer to the "sin of death" or physical death. There are many false teachers who profess to be saved and yet are destroying their own churches with doctrine that is not true, that is also true.

No doubt? Why does physical death fit the bill? Man can physically kill us, God tells us not to fear physical death. Would he get physically killed and then crowned in glory? Ouch!

 

[npetreley]

There are plenty of scriptures that show we - the saved - are not in bondage again to fear, etc. If it were possible for us to be "chastised" for 1,000 years in hell, these verses would not exist.

We also need not fear condemnation. There IS NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

ME addicts will try to twist this scripture to mean there is no condemntation for those who are doing good works (walk in the spirit) but that's not the comparison made in this passage. To be carnally minded is DEATH. Not punishment, death. To be carnally minded is to be unsaved and have nothing to look forward to but the wages of sin, which is death.

ME addicts are paranoid legalists. They think that the grace of God is too liberal, and leads to licentious living. So they manufacture 1,000 years of hell in order to punish people they are afraid might break a law.

But that is NOT the gospel of grace. The gospel of grace is...

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

He gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from EVERY lawless deed. Not just those we commit before we're saved. EVERY one.

And what does salvation do? It motivates us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. And does that amount to OUR good works? No, it is He who purifies us. We may get rewarded for cooperating, and we may lose rewards for resisting, but He is the one who motivates us through His love and grace. We are not motivated by fear.

Say it again and again until the ME addicts learn it, or go away.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

 

[DHK]

Are you sure?

Yes I am sure.
1. Paul addresses almost every one his epistles to the "saints (or believers in __________"
2. Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--This was the Biblical pattern for a church: they were saved, baptized and added unto the church. It was always in this order.

Does they get saved by being in unity?

No, unity comes as a result of being saved.
The term "of one accord" is a key phrase throughout the book of Acts which describes the church of Jerusalem.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

1 Corinthians 1:10-12
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Apparently they were all divided and yet they were all saved.

True, there was disunity among the church at Corinth. It was the most carnal church of all the churches that Paul addresses. This was something that Paul addressed and something that he was trying to correct.

It says nothing in the scripture about 'attacking' the temple. Those that are defiling the temple are just doing their job of building. The problem is that they are building with the wrong materials, wood, hay and stubble instead of gold, silver and precious stones.

No, Paul has gone on to a different topic now. There is a paragraph break here, just as there was between verse ten and eleven. Verses 16 and 17 have nothing to do with the JSOC. These, that were trying to defile the temple of God, were not the ones standing before Christ. They were not in that picture. Wood, hay and stubble has nothing to do with this.

No doubt? Why does physical death fit the bill? Man can physically kill us, God tells us not to fear physical death. Would he get physically killed and then crowned in glory? Ouch!

Where do you get "crowned in glory" out of this? It is not here. Paul has moved on to a different topic. Remember the chapter started out by him as addressing the church as being a carnal church and him not even being able to speak unto them as spiritual because they were so carnal. Not the whole chapter is given to the JSOC, and nothing is said of crowns. Why are you reading this into the passage. And it is not certain that these are even believers.
Furthermore why put restrictions on God. God can choose to punish saved or unsaved in any way he pleases. He is God. Who are you to restrict God in the way that he chooses to punish an individual?

 

[av1611jim]

There are plenty of scriptures that show we - the saved - are not in bondage again to fear, etc. If it were possible for us to be "chastised" for 1,000 years in hell, these verses would not exist.

We also need not fear condemnation. There IS NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


ME addicts will try to twist this scripture to mean there is no condemntation for those who are doing good works (walk in the spirit) but that's not the comparison made in this passage. To be carnally minded is DEATH. Not punishment, death. To be carnally minded is to be unsaved and have nothing to look forward to but the wages of sin, which is death.

ME addicts are paranoid legalists. They think that the grace of God is too liberal, and leads to licentious living. So they manufacture 1,000 years of hell in order to punish people they are afraid might break a law.

But that is NOT the gospel of grace. The gospel of grace is...


He gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from EVERY lawless deed. Not just those we commit before we're saved. EVERY one.

And what does salvation do? It motivates us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. And does that amount to OUR good works? No, it is He who purifies us. We may get rewarded for cooperating, and we may lose rewards for resisting, but He is the one who motivates us through His love and grace. We are not motivated by fear.

Say it again and again until the ME addicts learn it, or go away.

I reckon Jesus didn't know what He was talking about then huh?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Guess Paul didn't understand either huh?

Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Guess he was just confused here also huh?

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

He even gets MORE confused here;

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Good thing he has you to straighten him out here also:

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

What is he so afraid of here?

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Oh, I see! THIS IS WHY!!!!!

Hebrews 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

Serve God ACCEPTABLY with... FEAR, lest He also spare not thee!

You will note that every single one of these passages are addressed to BELIEVERS.

 

[Rufus_1611]

...
Oh, I see! THIS IS WHY!!!!!

Hebrews 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

Serve God ACCEPTABLY with... FEAR, lest He also spare not thee!

You will note that every single one of these passages are addressed to BELIEVERS.

Replacement avatar idea for the angry beaver...

 

[James_Newman]

Yes I am sure.
1. Paul addresses almost every one his epistles to the "saints (or believers in __________"
2. Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--This was the Biblical pattern for a church: they were saved, baptized and added unto the church. It was always in this order.

No, unity comes as a result of being saved.
The term "of one accord" is a key phrase throughout the book of Acts which describes the church of Jerusalem.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

True, there was disunity among the church at Corinth. It was the most carnal church of all the churches that Paul addresses. This was something that Paul addressed and something that he was trying to correct.

No, Paul has gone on to a different topic now. There is a paragraph break here, just as there was between verse ten and eleven. Verses 16 and 17 have nothing to do with the JSOC. These, that were trying to defile the temple of God, were not the ones standing before Christ. They were not in that picture. Wood, hay and stubble has nothing to do with this.

You see a paragraph break there? Thats funny, my bible is missing that information. Or are you assuming there is supposed to be one because you can't see how building God's temple with wood hay and stubble is defiling the temple?

Where do you get "crowned in glory" out of this? It is not here. Paul has moved on to a different topic. Remember the chapter started out by him as addressing the church as being a carnal church and him not even being able to speak unto them as spiritual because they were so carnal. Not the whole chapter is given to the JSOC, and nothing is said of crowns. Why are you reading this into the passage. And it is not certain that these are even believers.
Furthermore why put restrictions on God. God can choose to punish saved or unsaved in any way he pleases. He is God. Who are you to restrict God in the way that he chooses to punish an individual?

I certainly believe physical death can be a punishment. I am not the one that restricts God in the ways that He is allowed to punish folks. I just wondered what you supposed would happen to the believer who was physically killed for defiling the temple with his wood hay and stubble teachings since God can't chasten believers after death?

 

[lbaker]

Looks like all of 1st Corinthians 3, actually pretty much all of 1st Corinthians up to that point, is dealing with the folks causing division by identifying with Paul, or Peter, or Apollos, or whoever.

So, the people Paul says will be destroyed in 3:17 are obviously the ones destroying the temple (church) by causing the divisions. Those could be either saved or unsaved, or maybe some of both. Paul doesn't go into detail as to what the destruction entails, that isn't the point. The point is to stop damaging the temple with all of their factions and divisions, or suffer the consequences.

Paul doesn't say anything about being chunked into hell for 1000 years at Christ's return. The only way that you can get that out of the text is if you go into it assuming that anytime Paul talks about punishment it demands exclusion from a 1000 year earthly kingdom. Sorry, but it just ain't there.

Les

 

[DHK]

You see a paragraph break there? Thats funny, my bible is missing that information. Or are you assuming there is supposed to be one because you can't see how building God's temple with wood hay and stubble is defiling the temple?

Verses 11-15, the JSOC, is a heavenly scene.
Versed 16 and 17 are speaking of the local church (the temple), which is down here on earth. This is an obvious break in the subject.

I certainly believe physical death can be a punishment. I am not the one that restricts God in the ways that He is allowed to punish folks. I just wondered what you supposed would happen to the believer who was physically killed for defiling the temple with his wood hay and stubble teachings since God can't chasten believers after death?

1. Your conclusion are clouded by your pre-conceived ideas.
2. The Bible speaks nowhere of chastening after death. Nowhere is that found in Scripture. All chastening of a believer takes place before death. We cannot read our own ideas into the Bible.
3. This is an earthly scene, not a heavenly one as verses 11-15 depict. Therefore the wood, hay, and stubble are out of the picture and cannot be imposed into this Scripture. They are out of context.

 

[James_Newman]

Looks like all of 1st Corinthians 3, actually pretty much all of 1st Corinthians up to that point, is dealing with the folks causing division by identifying with Paul, or Peter, or Apollos, or whoever.

So, the people Paul says will be destroyed in 3:17 are obviously the ones destroying the temple (church) by causing the divisions. Those could be either saved or unsaved, or maybe some of both. Paul doesn't go into detail as to what the destruction entails, that isn't the point. The point is to stop damaging the temple with all of their factions and divisions, or suffer the consequences.

Paul doesn't say anything about being chunked into hell for 1000 years at Christ's return. The only way that you can get that out of the text is if you go into it assuming that anytime Paul talks about punishment it demands exclusion from a 1000 year earthly kingdom. Sorry, but it just ain't there.

Les

One would have to assume that if Paul is building on the foundation of Christ, the only reason he doesn't explain what the destruction is is because they already know what Christ taught and he doesn't have to say it again.

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But whatever destruction is, it isn't good.

 

[av1611jim]

I apologize brothers for butting in where I said I would keep my nose out, but I simply cannot let this statement go.
.
DHK said, "Furthermore why put restrictions on God. God can choose to punish saved or unsaved in any way he pleases. He is God. Who are you to restrict God in the way that he chooses to punish an individual? "

This is what we have been saying all along!!!!!!!!!!

Brother James noted this in his reply but I feared its significance would get lost.

Note this one single truth please, all of you, my friends; (both KA and non-KA) please.

He is GOD and can "punish" both believers and non-believers anyway He chooses. Believers, because we are His children and He tolerates no disobedience: Unbelievers, because He tolerates no disobedience.

Thanks DHK for this concession.

Next we need to establish what is meant by "punish" within the context of believers since we are all agreed what is meant within the context of unbelievers..

 

[Accountable]

:tonofbricks:

Replacement avatar idea for the angry beaver...

!!!!!!