DavidFWhite3
New Member
I'm not. I'm postjudiced.
-
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Okay, comments? Re: Hitler
- Thread starter LadyEagle
- Start date
DavidFWhite3
New Member
Some will say that Hitler might be correct. After all, the tide of antisemitism had been growing in Europe for a while, and, after WW2, England's solution to antisemitism was to create the present day State of Israel. This gave the Jews in Europe a place to go to, thus ridding many of the European countries of the "Jewish problem".
A sad bit of history, but unfortunately true. </font>[/QUOTE]Isreal was not created to rid any nation of Jews, but to guarantee the Jews safe haven. It was also the completion of what had been developing in Palestine since the early part of the 20th Century. The western world was experiencing a lot of guilt for not having acted to stop Hitler, thus allowing the holocost. The creation of the modern state of Isreal went a long way to alleviate that guilt.
poncho
Well-Known Member
The Nazi attrocities received all the airtime, and because the communists were our allies. (PR)
The attrocities continue in Red China, maybe they aren't Jews that are forced to work in the slave labor prison camps that supply Walmart and other well known retailers in the U.S.
It's massive human suffering that supplies us with "low low" prices and we don't even think about it when making our purchases at these places. Maybe it's all just public relations and our own selfishness.
Hitler is fascinating because he is a unique combination of high intelligence and incredible evil. Despite his evil he almost won. Consider...
1) If the panzer units had been sent in at Dunkirk and the BEF had lost its soldiers as well as its equipment, how different could it have been? Does the British public stand by Sir Winston if a quarter million of the British empires finest are in prison in Germany?
2) In the Winter of 41/42 the Russians through intermediaries were asking Hitler for terms. In a series of meetings called the Hossbach conferences Hitler was offered a deal that would have given him basically what the German army had taken at the point. Large tracts of Belarus, and Ukraine. Guderian said take it, use the time to build the new Panther Tanks and King Tigers and then hit Stalin again. Hitler blew it.
3) What if Hitler had attacked Stalingrad or the Caucasus instead of both?
4) This one fascinates me the most. What if in 1942 instead of researching the V1 buzz bomb, Hitler had thrown the Jet fighter into mass production. A few hundred jet fighters would have sent the eighth air force crashing into French countryside.
We tell the tale in most history classes in this country that the old Arsenal of Democracy buried the Fascists underneath superior numbers. Truth is that Hitler had the military of the 60's on his drawing boards in the 40's. Thank goodness however we did it, that we won. Scary to think of a Nazi atomic bomb.
1) If the panzer units had been sent in at Dunkirk and the BEF had lost its soldiers as well as its equipment, how different could it have been? Does the British public stand by Sir Winston if a quarter million of the British empires finest are in prison in Germany?
2) In the Winter of 41/42 the Russians through intermediaries were asking Hitler for terms. In a series of meetings called the Hossbach conferences Hitler was offered a deal that would have given him basically what the German army had taken at the point. Large tracts of Belarus, and Ukraine. Guderian said take it, use the time to build the new Panther Tanks and King Tigers and then hit Stalin again. Hitler blew it.
3) What if Hitler had attacked Stalingrad or the Caucasus instead of both?
4) This one fascinates me the most. What if in 1942 instead of researching the V1 buzz bomb, Hitler had thrown the Jet fighter into mass production. A few hundred jet fighters would have sent the eighth air force crashing into French countryside.
We tell the tale in most history classes in this country that the old Arsenal of Democracy buried the Fascists underneath superior numbers. Truth is that Hitler had the military of the 60's on his drawing boards in the 40's. Thank goodness however we did it, that we won. Scary to think of a Nazi atomic bomb.
You're right, Coach!
At Dunkirk---Hitler staled---His High Command knew that was a foolish move--not to move!!
If the war was left in the hands of High Command . . . the Brits today would be spending der Deutch Marks instead of squabblin' over which is best--the Pound or the Euro!!
Hitler's next mistake was a switch in bombing strategy in England---from strategic bombing of RAF airfields and facilities as such to haphazardly bombing whole cities---Brits need to read history to figure out just how close they were to "sueing" for peace(surrendering)---probably at best 3-4 days---when Hitler switched strategies!!
His next mistake was opening a two front war--with the invasion of Russia--(Operation Barbarossa)---probably the most stupidist, idiotic military move ever made in history--Here was Stalin's counter strateegy---let him come in as far as he wants to with as many men as he so desires---and when he gets far enough in---we shut the door behind him!!!
Then he gloated over Stalingrad---what an idiot!!?? Had he gone for the Caucauses---we would be bargaining with him today---instead of OPEC!!
If the German strategy(over all) would have been decided by High Command---Commanders such as Guderian, Jodl, and such---instead of Hitler . . . well, ummmmmmm . . . just let your mind answer that and then as the song goes---"Count your blessings"
At Dunkirk---Hitler staled---His High Command knew that was a foolish move--not to move!!
If the war was left in the hands of High Command . . . the Brits today would be spending der Deutch Marks instead of squabblin' over which is best--the Pound or the Euro!!
Hitler's next mistake was a switch in bombing strategy in England---from strategic bombing of RAF airfields and facilities as such to haphazardly bombing whole cities---Brits need to read history to figure out just how close they were to "sueing" for peace(surrendering)---probably at best 3-4 days---when Hitler switched strategies!!
His next mistake was opening a two front war--with the invasion of Russia--(Operation Barbarossa)---probably the most stupidist, idiotic military move ever made in history--Here was Stalin's counter strateegy---let him come in as far as he wants to with as many men as he so desires---and when he gets far enough in---we shut the door behind him!!!
Then he gloated over Stalingrad---what an idiot!!?? Had he gone for the Caucauses---we would be bargaining with him today---instead of OPEC!!
If the German strategy(over all) would have been decided by High Command---Commanders such as Guderian, Jodl, and such---instead of Hitler . . . well, ummmmmmm . . . just let your mind answer that and then as the song goes---"Count your blessings"
Pr 21:1
¶ The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Somehow, this too was God's doing. I don't think the Kings of Babylon were very nice either, but God called ol' Nebby, "My Servant". I believe God used Hitler to bring about world opinion and to establish the modern state of Isreal. Which in turn will bring about world opinion and usher in Anit-Christ. Which will pave the way for the Second Coming.
We can say "what-if" 'til the cows come home, but the bottom line is that Hitler did what he did because God wanted it that way. Why are we so hard on Adolph? Is it because he is closer to our time than Manasseh? Now THAT was one evil boy!
Nevertheless, Hitler was no Christain. It is asserted by some that Adolph was a catholic. Could be. That would explain alot of his methods. He was definitely a devil.
In HIS service;
Jim
¶ The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Somehow, this too was God's doing. I don't think the Kings of Babylon were very nice either, but God called ol' Nebby, "My Servant". I believe God used Hitler to bring about world opinion and to establish the modern state of Isreal. Which in turn will bring about world opinion and usher in Anit-Christ. Which will pave the way for the Second Coming.
We can say "what-if" 'til the cows come home, but the bottom line is that Hitler did what he did because God wanted it that way. Why are we so hard on Adolph? Is it because he is closer to our time than Manasseh? Now THAT was one evil boy!
Nevertheless, Hitler was no Christain. It is asserted by some that Adolph was a catholic. Could be. That would explain alot of his methods. He was definitely a devil.
In HIS service;
Jim
DavidFWhite3
New Member
To say that God willed for Hitler to do what he did is indicative of a mind that has no concept of what the Will of God in Jesus is. You're god is a murderer of innocent millions. My God does not will for innocent millions to be murdered. After reading Jim's last post, I will refuse to read any further posts of his, and will not spend one more second responding to anything else he has to say. How can anyone who knows God in Christ give God credit for the actions of Adolph Hitler?
Dave
Dave
Brother David---please don't be so rough on Jim--this is not a place to "blast" someone---or to put a "hex" on someone because of your's or his differences of opinion---to which Jim is entitled to share an opinion.
As for myself---putting it all together---and looking at it from an "overall perspective"---the stupid, idiotic mistakes and blunders Hitler made---all under the direction of Almighty---if Almighty God can move someone to do right---what makes you think He can't move someone who is "of the devil" to do or make a wrong decision??---wrong decisions such as discontinue bombardment of RAF airfields and radar stations in lue of beginning bombardment of London(proper) and carpet bombing English cities----mistakes such as Operation Barbaroosa---see???
I challenge you to read the stories written by the late, great Corrie Ten Boom while in prison and how she acknowledges that every move made was under the direction of Almighty God.
I don't believe that Jim was giving God "credit" for Adolph Hitler's actions---I don't believe God orchestrated the death camps, etc.---but I do believe that what happened was because of evilness and control of Satan himself---to which---thankfully, God raised up a few Godly nations to "bring to naught" the foolishness of the crazed demon possessed man that Hitler was!
Blackbird
As for myself---putting it all together---and looking at it from an "overall perspective"---the stupid, idiotic mistakes and blunders Hitler made---all under the direction of Almighty---if Almighty God can move someone to do right---what makes you think He can't move someone who is "of the devil" to do or make a wrong decision??---wrong decisions such as discontinue bombardment of RAF airfields and radar stations in lue of beginning bombardment of London(proper) and carpet bombing English cities----mistakes such as Operation Barbaroosa---see???
I challenge you to read the stories written by the late, great Corrie Ten Boom while in prison and how she acknowledges that every move made was under the direction of Almighty God.
I don't believe that Jim was giving God "credit" for Adolph Hitler's actions---I don't believe God orchestrated the death camps, etc.---but I do believe that what happened was because of evilness and control of Satan himself---to which---thankfully, God raised up a few Godly nations to "bring to naught" the foolishness of the crazed demon possessed man that Hitler was!
Blackbird
DavidFWhite3
New Member
Sorry Blackbird, but to attribute obvious and total evil to the will of God is not acceptable.
Now, if Jim meant that God can cause good to come from something so evil, YES, I agree that God does that, and if that is what he meant I am sorry for misunderstanding his point. But I will leave it to him to respond.
Thank you,
Dave
Now, if Jim meant that God can cause good to come from something so evil, YES, I agree that God does that, and if that is what he meant I am sorry for misunderstanding his point. But I will leave it to him to respond.
Thank you,
Dave
Blackbird. I meant what I said.
"I believe God used Hitler to bring about world opinion and to establish the modern state of Isreal."
AND;
"Somehow, this too was God's doing."
AND;
"Nevertheless, Hitler was no Christain."
AND;
"He was definitely a devil."
_________________________________________________
How it was that David missed those clear comments is beyond me.
David said,"You're god is a murderer of innocent millions." So I assume that he did not read the flood account in Genesis 6-7. Nor did He read of Sodom and Gomorah. Nor did he read of the evils the Assyrians brought on Israel. Nor did he read of the atrocities the Babylonians accomplished on Israel. Nor did he read of God calling Nebuchadnezzar, "My servant". And ALL of this was God's doing.
The Jews, as well as the Poles, French, Chechs, and the untold others who were not Jews who also died in those camps were no more innocent than the "innocent by standers" who were destroyed in those awful judgements of God in numerous places in the O.T.
My point, Blackbird, is that SOMEHOW the evils of Hitler, were no more nor less of God than the evils of the Babylonians who God used to judge Israel in ancient times.
Isa 45:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do I like this? Nope. My flesh recoils at this thought. Is it true? Yep. God said it is so.
Is my God evil? Nope. Is He just? Yep. Are His ways past finding out? Yep.
Hope this clarifies it for you. Don't really know what David's problem is.
In HIS service;
Jim
"I believe God used Hitler to bring about world opinion and to establish the modern state of Isreal."
AND;
"Somehow, this too was God's doing."
AND;
"Nevertheless, Hitler was no Christain."
AND;
"He was definitely a devil."
_________________________________________________
How it was that David missed those clear comments is beyond me.
David said,"You're god is a murderer of innocent millions." So I assume that he did not read the flood account in Genesis 6-7. Nor did He read of Sodom and Gomorah. Nor did he read of the evils the Assyrians brought on Israel. Nor did he read of the atrocities the Babylonians accomplished on Israel. Nor did he read of God calling Nebuchadnezzar, "My servant". And ALL of this was God's doing.
The Jews, as well as the Poles, French, Chechs, and the untold others who were not Jews who also died in those camps were no more innocent than the "innocent by standers" who were destroyed in those awful judgements of God in numerous places in the O.T.
My point, Blackbird, is that SOMEHOW the evils of Hitler, were no more nor less of God than the evils of the Babylonians who God used to judge Israel in ancient times.
Isa 45:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do I like this? Nope. My flesh recoils at this thought. Is it true? Yep. God said it is so.
Is my God evil? Nope. Is He just? Yep. Are His ways past finding out? Yep.
Hope this clarifies it for you. Don't really know what David's problem is.
In HIS service;
Jim
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
John, I disaggree Prejudice is NOT a sin. The definition of prejudice is : "a judgment or opinion formed before the facts are known"
I may make a judgement before all facts are know, but that does not mean I would necessarily be wrong. The problem is we normally associate pre-juding with always being wrong.
In addition we can also be prejudice "for" or prejudice "against". The "For" can happen when we vote a "straight ticket" We often do not know how a candidate stands on an issue, but will vote for him, simply beacuse he is endorsed by a certain political party. I made this mistake once when a man ran for state assembly on the Republican ticet. I voted for him beacuse he was also endorsed by the Conservative Party. Ater the election I found out he was pro-abortion (or in his words "pro-choice".
Now, I want to know where all candidates stand on the issues.
Bottom line, I still pre-judge people. If I am walking in the wrong side of town and see some one that looks supcicious, I am defentily going to pre-judge. That my friend is NOT a sin! I may be wong sometimes, but I am willing to admit it.
DavidFWhite3
New Member
Forgive me for that. It was stated in the heat of my disgust at your implication that God might have willed the holocost. If I understood you correctly then I do not apologise at all, for you have attributed to God a will to do evil, and how can you do such a thing in light of Jesus? Again I say, if you meant by the post that God can cause good to come from evil, then I misunderstood you, and for that I do apologise. But all I have to respond to is what you actually wrote, and again, I find your conclusions about Hitler and God's will totally inconsitent with the will of God as I see it revealed in Jesus Christ. So I ask you a simple question. Did God will the murder of six million jews, and millions of others who stood in the way of the Third Reich? Did He or didn't He? Just answer that question and then I'll know if a genuine apology is in order.
Dave
SaggyWoman
Active Member
Go to Auschwitz and see if that is of God.
Certainly, Auschwitz was not "of God!"
But think about this!! Reading the autobiography of the late, great Sister Corrie ten Boom and her account of being incarcerated in Ravensbruck and how the word of God was put on display---a light in darkness for a bunch of ladies who had no hope! I wept when she gave account of the Russian prostitute that the SS had "finished with" and had now thrown her(the prostitute) into the barracks---Corrie quickly realized that out of the hundreds in the barracks with the prostitute---only she(Corrie) knew how to speak and understand Russian language---thus the gospel of the saving power of God was given---a light to lighten the dark world that that Russian woman was now in---
True---those places were terrible--beyond human description---yet somehow in the middle of all the darkness----God infiltrated---and who knows what man or what woman or what child received the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ---just moments before they stood before the machine guns or the carbon monoxide or the cynide gas chambers and there met the God of their eternity face to face!!
But think about this!! Reading the autobiography of the late, great Sister Corrie ten Boom and her account of being incarcerated in Ravensbruck and how the word of God was put on display---a light in darkness for a bunch of ladies who had no hope! I wept when she gave account of the Russian prostitute that the SS had "finished with" and had now thrown her(the prostitute) into the barracks---Corrie quickly realized that out of the hundreds in the barracks with the prostitute---only she(Corrie) knew how to speak and understand Russian language---thus the gospel of the saving power of God was given---a light to lighten the dark world that that Russian woman was now in---
True---those places were terrible--beyond human description---yet somehow in the middle of all the darkness----God infiltrated---and who knows what man or what woman or what child received the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ---just moments before they stood before the machine guns or the carbon monoxide or the cynide gas chambers and there met the God of their eternity face to face!!
David;
I believe I answered your question quite clearly.
Answer my questions and I will answer yours.
Did God will it for Israel to "murder" (destroy) the nations they disposessed? Did God will it for Nebuchadnezzer to "murder" (destroy) Judah and take them into captivity? Did God will it for the Assyrians to "murder" (destroy) Israel and take them into captivity? Did God will it for the flood to "murder" (destroy) every man woman and child on earth? Did God will it for Sodom and Gomorrah to be utterly destroyed, including "murdering" the innocent babies?
Be careful how you impose your sense of morality on our God, who is a consuming fire.
These are all clear episodes in Scripture where it was God's will that these things happen. Does God take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked? No. God is not willing that any should perish. Does God prevent such evil? Many times, no.
I will state it again. SOMEHOW the atrocoties the Nazis committed were all a part of God's plan to bring about the modern state of Israel. Can you say for certain that it was not? I submit that it was precisely because of Germany's evil that world opinion was swayed in favour of establishing a free state for Israel.
Your objections seem to be based on emotionalism, not Scripture. The kings' heart is in the hand of the Lord. If it is true that God raised up Pharoah to bring about His purposes, then why is it so hard for you to accept that God raised up Adolph?
I think your view of what God does and does not do is inconsistent with the revelation of Him in Scripture.
Perhaps you are missing my point. I don't know what else I can do to make it any clearer. For that I am sorry.
BTW; I have not ascribed to God anything He has not declared of Himself.
Isa 45:5
¶ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
In HIS service;
Jim
I believe I answered your question quite clearly.
Answer my questions and I will answer yours.
Did God will it for Israel to "murder" (destroy) the nations they disposessed? Did God will it for Nebuchadnezzer to "murder" (destroy) Judah and take them into captivity? Did God will it for the Assyrians to "murder" (destroy) Israel and take them into captivity? Did God will it for the flood to "murder" (destroy) every man woman and child on earth? Did God will it for Sodom and Gomorrah to be utterly destroyed, including "murdering" the innocent babies?
Be careful how you impose your sense of morality on our God, who is a consuming fire.
These are all clear episodes in Scripture where it was God's will that these things happen. Does God take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked? No. God is not willing that any should perish. Does God prevent such evil? Many times, no.
I will state it again. SOMEHOW the atrocoties the Nazis committed were all a part of God's plan to bring about the modern state of Israel. Can you say for certain that it was not? I submit that it was precisely because of Germany's evil that world opinion was swayed in favour of establishing a free state for Israel.
Your objections seem to be based on emotionalism, not Scripture. The kings' heart is in the hand of the Lord. If it is true that God raised up Pharoah to bring about His purposes, then why is it so hard for you to accept that God raised up Adolph?
I think your view of what God does and does not do is inconsistent with the revelation of Him in Scripture.
Perhaps you are missing my point. I don't know what else I can do to make it any clearer. For that I am sorry.
BTW; I have not ascribed to God anything He has not declared of Himself.
Isa 45:5
¶ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
In HIS service;
Jim
Go to golgotha where man killed God and see if THAT is of God.
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."