Old Man, New Man

I recently read a book called Tears in Heaven by the late Dr. John R. Rice who pointed out there will be tears in heaven. He is a simple yet very profound thinker and I recommend his books to anyone who appreciates a writer who verifies Bible with Bible.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The short version says they must have had tears in their eyes in order for the tears to be wiped away. I never thought of that but he has a good point. He then proceeds to give reasons for the tears prior to them being wiped away. Good reading. He was truly a great mind...

 

Well that's a nice saying, but it just isn't backed up with Scripture Helen. Being saved doesn't mean you automatically want to live a Godly life. It is something that must be taught.

When we are born again we are born as babes. So just go back to when your children were babes did they automatically want to do the right thing or were they in needing of teaching?

It is the same way with Christians. We have to be taught. And some Christians receive the teaching and some Christians don't receive the teaching and live in rebellion just like earthly children. And if we live a life of rebellion then there are consequences for doing so and it doesn't amount to getting a smaller portion of paradise pie in the end.

 

Exactly. There has to be some crying over something. So I would be interested to hear what his take on the tears if you don't mind sharing. I don't have time to read the book as I have about 25 on my self that are awaiting my time as it is

So if you could give us the quick 411 on his thoughts that would be great.

 

I agree with Helen who made some very good points. I don't know who does most of the teaching but if DH is better then she then I would love to sit under him (or her).

Jesus made this simple point one day while speaking to his Jewish Brothers;

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

And befor tht he said;

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

And Paul said;

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I could go on JJump but I just wanted to show the Bible does say many times that all those in the Church is not saved. Jesus even says there are some who he doesn't know that call him Lord. I don't know why you say this idea is unbiblical? This is the foudation of the faith and one reason we are not to Judge in the Church. We are not capable of knowing who is saved from those who are not saved so we leave that part to the Righteous judge. Until then we are to keep the sheep with the wolves, the wheat with the tare and Christ will sort the mess out.

 

Yes and no, we are born again as babes with a new father. Somethings are hereditary (?sp) and don't have to be tought. He that loveth not knoweth not God because God is love. John is saying it is impossible to be one of God's and not love. It just isn't possible and doesn't have to be tought. Will we make the ultimate act of Love like Christ and give our life, maybe not but you will love just the same.

 

Thank you. Barry is an incredible man. He not only knows the Bible, but lives his faith the way very few people I have ever met do. I run most of my posts regarding doctrine by him first to make sure I have not said something wrong or just plain stupid.

 

When my children were babies, they were born with sin natures. The point of being born again is to give us new natures in Christ.

That being said, it is still true that my children wanted to please me; they wanted my praise, regardless of their sin natures.

So with a new nature and the desire of a child to please the parent, I am quite sure that any born again Christian does desire to live a godly life. Yes, we must be taught how, but we no longer have the desire to rebel, but instead have the desire to please our Father. Yes, of course we sin, but God judges the heart, for which I praise and thank Him. As born again children of God, we do want to please Him and do want to at least learn to live godly lives.

 

Well you better keep going 'cause you haven't shown it yet, especially in the Gospels.

Yes there are saved folks that call Him Lord that He does not know in regard to their work. That doesn't prove your point either.

Well because it is unBiblical. Discipleship is not the foundation of an eternal saving faith the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God is the foundation and only foundation of eternal saving faith.

Unfortunately discipleship gets lumped into the mix by modern day Christendom.

We have to keep them separate, because they are two different issues.

Once a person has believed they are as saved as they are ever going to be regardless of whether or not they become a disciple or not.

Okay.

Okay please show me in Scripture where it says that I don't have to learn the right thing to do. I've yet to see it. The only thing we have is the Holy Spirit that can live out the manifested life of Christ in our members if we choose to die to self and allow Him to act through us. It's not an automatic thing.

Funny that's not what the sentence right above that says. It doesn't say anything at all about belonging to God or not. It says that one that does not love does not "know" God. It doesn't say doesn't belong to God.

As born again children of God we "should" want to please Him and we "should" want to at least learn to live Godly lives. Again this is not an automatic thing.

 

Again please show me in Scripture where it says we no longer have a desire to rebel. Yes we do have a new nature, but that new nature wars with the old one. The desire to rebel doesn't go away. We either feed it or we feed the new nature to do what is right.

Some Christians feed the rebellious nature and live a life of rebellion and some Christians feed the new nature and put to death the old man.

If we were automatically going to do the right thing there would be no need to command us or encourage us to do the right thing. If all we were going to do is what God wanted us to do with an occasional slipup there wouldn't be a need to be judged because in the end we would all be fruit producers with just different amounts of ripe fruit.

But Scripture tells us that there are bad fruit producers and good fruit producers and they are both saved individuals. One lived for self and the other lived for God.

 

It's certainly not a matter of 'automatically' doing the right thing. It is a matter of WANTING to do the right thing and losing out sometimes to the flesh. It is also a matter of our idea of what the 'right thing' is vs. God's directions. We can get pretty enthused about doing what we perceive is right, and God knows that particular path will not yield fruit. Nevertheless, our hearts want what is right!

There are actually four ways, not just two:
1. Unregenerate -- not caring about what is right, only about what "I" want.
2. Unregenerate -- caring about doing good and trying on one's own steam.
3. Regenerate -- wanting to do the right thing but not listening to the Lord and running off on one's own path (which the Lord will correct)
4. Regenerate -- wanting to do the right thing and listening to the Lord and following Him.

Note: you asked for Scripture:
"Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."
Romans 8:5-10

Both #1 and 2 can do things beneficial to others, #1 more or less by accident and #2 on purpose. These don't bring salvation, but they are nevertheless doing things which are right.

Both #3 and 4 can do things which are sins, but neither wants to. Yes, the flesh sometimes wins, but that is not the desire of the heart.

 

Okay, so what happens to the person that continues to live a life of rebellion (even though he desires to do differently). Does he just get a smaller piece of paradise pie and everything is okay after he dies?

 

I have a different view, if the Lord doesn't know you there is no way you can be saved. If he doesn't know you he didn't write your name in the Lambs book of life. I don't think that verse has anything to do with works.

I think you misunderstood which foundation I was referring to, I am speaking of the foundation of assuring your own salvation before proceeding to do what we call "works". Like what Jesus said in the previous verse, there are some who have gone on to do great work for the Lord whom the Lord does not know. Those are people who skipped the first step, salvation yet went running on doing what they felt to be the work of God.

I see this is where we differ. I do not believe everyone in the Church is saved because saving faith is an unwavering acheivement and one not possesed by everyone in the crowd.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

These were folks that walked with Christ, they followed him "religously" yet they truned and walked with him no more. If they were saved they could have palleted the sayings of Jesus and could have heard his words...

Here again,

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Again, people who spent time with Christ. He tought them personally and they even "eaten and drunk in thy presence". All of this and Christ says, "I know you not."

Again, I can go on but one must accept the fact that everyone in the Church is not saved. You will find some who appear to be the most saved person in the Church and we'll all be shocked to find they were not known by the master. I know this is a bitter pill to swallow but these are the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

Continuing to live a life of rebellion means he is not controlled by the Holy Spirit and thus is not saved. See the quotes from Romans 8 I posted a few posts ago.

 

That is a back-loaded works salvation. Eternal salvation is not based on whether I produce works or not, but whether I believe in the substitionary death and shed blood of Christ. After I have believed that salvation is a finished matter whether I produce one single good work or not.

Again on one hand you say that being controlled by the Holy Spirit is not automatic, but then when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what you believe you do in fact believe that being controlled by the Holy Spirit is an automatic or otherwise you aren't saved.

That doesn't prove your point at all.

 

It has EVERYTHING to do with works. That's the entire context of the passage. Lord we did some works here they are. The Lord said I don't know you you "workers" of iniquity. How can it not be about works? He didn't say you are not my children I don't know you. He said you are workers of iniquity. Their eternal salvation wasn't what was in view.

If you think that is the case then you have believe there are going to be saved and unsaved at the JSOC, which the Bible says only saved are going to be there.

Again you are inserting things into the text that just aren't there. The text doesn't say they skipped the first step. It says they called Him Lord. Scripture says you can't do that unless you have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't indwell unsaved folks.

I never said everyone in the church is saved. But what you have to do is take off the 21st century shades and see Scripture as Scripture was written. You can't put 21st century things into Scripture.

The Bible doesn't speak of the church as a building full of saved and unsaved folks sitting next to each other seeing "praise" songs. When the Scripture speaks of the church it is speaking of saved folks.

Again you are placing your own thoughts onto Scripture. The Scripture says they were disciples. Disciples in Scripture are saved folks, not pretenders.

And just because someone has a tough time dealing with what Christ said doesn't mean they were unsaved. There are MANY folks even here on the BB that have a hard time with the idea that there are going to be saved folks that miss out on the kingdom, but that doesn't make them unsaved.

Salvation is not about following Christ, but believing in his death and shed blood. That doesn't say anything about them being unsaved when they walked away. It says they were disciples and then they turned away from being disciples. So they were either saved and then unsaved (lost their salvation) or they were just disciples and then sheep that lost their way again, because they didn't follow the Shepherd.

Again you bring up a passage of Scripture that deals with works not with eternal salvation. I now you think since the word saved is in one of the verses it must be dealing with eternal salvation, but contextually it can't be because works are in the picture. And we know that there are three plain teachings of Scripture that says when works are in the picture man's eternal salvation is not the context (Acts 16:30-31, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4).

And again that is not the argument. I am WELL aware that not all those people that walk through the doors of the brick building are saved. But that's not what Scripture is talking about when talking about the church.

It is a bitter pill to swallow, but the ones that need to wake up and swallow it are saved individuals, because it is going to be quite a shock when there are "saved" individuals that stand before their Judge to find out that they were workers of iniquity. That's why the day of judgment is going to catch some like a thief in the night. They think all is good and well, but it's going to be pay day someday and judgment starts at the house of God!

 

You may not believe that a person who is born again is controlled by the Holy Spirit, but that is what the Bible says, and I think I'll go with Bible.

 

I am really having trouble following you now as it almost seems like we are saying the same things a different way.

I agree one does not work for their salvation. However, Jesus made it very clear that you will know every tree by it's fruit. It is impossible for a righteous tree to bear evil fruit. This is because the fruit is a product of the tree. Eveything in the fruit came via the roots, trunk and branches of the tree. If there is no evil in the tree there is no chance of evil being in the fruit.

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This says to me we don't need to do good works in order to be saved, once one is saved he will do good works because that is what is in him.

Again, I don't believe it is possible for one to be righteous and have evil works. Only the righteous will be at the JSOC so the decision is not saved or unsaved. It is work or didn't work. Either you earned the reward r you didn't. Now I also believe our lives will be reviewed like an open book and many a Christian will be ashamed of his performance while on earth. This has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with the report you will give in the end. That's what Paul meant to Timothy by a workman who needeth not be ashamed.

I see how you might think I am inserting that which is not there, but it is there. Jesus didn't know them. How can I work for you, a full fledge employee complete with eternal benefits but the company doesn't know me? There is only one way the company doesn't know you, that's if you don't work for them.

There was an episode of Sienfield where Kramer just started showing up at a job. It was tough to fire him because he didn't really work for them. But befor firing him, the manager had HR look for his records which is how they learned he didn't work for the company.

There are many doing Gods work but didn't take time to become part of the company.

Then you are suggesting one can loose their salvation because the scripture clearly said they turned and walked with him no more. I don't preach a drive through salvation where one can stop by, get saved then go about his business.

To the saved his words are sweet to the ear and very palatible to the tounge and friendly to the stomach. They rejected what was not for them to have. This is why Jesus repeated said, "He that has ears let him hear"

 

If a believer is controlled by the Holy Spirit all the time then the person would never sin. You can't have it both ways. And that's not what the Bible says. If so please show me where it says that the Holy Spirit controls every born again believer 100% of the time. It doesn't say that as much as folks want it to. I know that would make so much simpler, but that's just not what it says.

 

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:9

What is there about that which is confusing to you?

Let's look at more Bible:

...being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus
Philippians 1:6

In other words, it's an ongoing process, not an immediate transformation.

Which is why we read in Hebrews 12:1-13
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Therefore strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. "Make level paths for your feet", so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

The fact that it is a process does not mean we do not sin and it does not mean the Holy Spirit is not living in us. It does mean, however, that we do not want to sin, and that our training by God will end up producing a harvest of righteousness and peace as the Holy Spirit continues and finishes His work in us:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according t his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Romans 8:28-31

As a parent, I was legally responsible for my children and expected to be in control of them. That did not mean, however, that they were always obedient! Raising them was a process in which they learned first obedience and then self-control.

I seriously do not see what you are arguing about here.

 

Helen I pick cherry pick verses from here and there and prove just about any point I want to. Just because you pluck down a verse doesn't mean it is saying what you want it to say.

Just look at the verse in question:

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

There is the key. It is referring to his audience, not all Christians. You are trying to rewrite the Scripture to say all Christian however are controlled not by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit. That's NOT what it says. It says "you" the people he was writing to. So one needs go back and see who the letter is addressed to.

And it wasn't addressed to all Christians, but it was addressed to those that were living Godly lives. Part of context is audience, and Paul's audience was faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians, not unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christians.

Then you go on to address Philippians which is also addressed to saints. Not all Christians are saints. I know that's what church tradition tells us, but it's not so.

Then you go on to quote a book of Hebrews that proves my point even more than anything else:

If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

It says that those that are not disciplined are not unsaved as you and LeBuick would have us to believe, but are illegitmate children. This passage has to do with sonship not eternal salvation. Two totally different subjects. The one that despises discipline and refuses to be disciplined will be treated as an illegitimate "CHILD." They are still children of God, but illigitimate. Still part of the family.

Well just because you expect to be in control of your children doesn't mean you are. Just ask those kids that rebel against their parents by ditching school or changing their clothes in the bathroom or sneaking out of the house or drinking when they aren't supposed to, or smoking pot in the bathrooms, or having sex with their bf/gf.

Again try as you might, Scripture says there are obedient, faithful, overcoming Christians and then there are Christians that are disobedient, unfaithful and non-overcoming. And there are consequences for both sets.