Old Regular Baptist (revised)

[abonmarche']

Brother Frogman: Thank you for info and may I add another sharing of Information to validate Colonial government. Comment at end of your chat report.

If you folks get a map of Virginia, please see an area called Eastern Shore Virginia. It is the only area that was defended to the hilt by the British Empire. Even the new coming of preaching the Good News. Yes, even the court records show that the BAPTIST preachers were stockaded and jailed for sharing such drastic profound changes of What the English church of christ had as their doctrine. ie: Confession to a priest, Baptisism of babies and not adults, the Communion by a priest only, Latin only church services, and other things the King so declared on his new lands and laws before the first battle of 1776. That is were certain folks of other denominations came on the soil of Virginia and the Circuit Courts of Accomack County, Virginia can to this day enforce it. WHY? Because it is a commonwealth. The good of the local government for its citizens. The first Baptist church was at Red bank off my farm lands. The locals built a lean-two with fireplace for warmth and keep mosquitoes away (smoke), however He was preaching words against the Kings decrees on the Kings lands. To this day they are kind of tolerated. All contracts and land holding are still under the English rules on American soil. Why? Good for the commonwealth--also now known as Emminate Domain! Praise God your churches exists and not under tyronery.

 

[rsr]

We are in danger of getting off track again. Please stick to the topic.

Thank you.

rsr

 

[abonmarche']

RE: Old Regular Baptist (revised) Dear Brother Pinyobaptist,
I suppose this was a result of several factors related to colonial American history. Among these was prohibition by colonial government supported religions. In Virginia, the Anglican church prohibited any from assembling more than once per month unless the preacher was licensed by the Anglican church. Baptists and I suppose other groups could meet in a home, one time per month, but never in the same location for two consecutive months.

Perhaps transportation and other issues were at fault also. In Kentucky, Baptists were busy trying to establish their homes, avoid or battle Native American raids, until things became settled they would meet together in the nearest home and where ever a man was found to be called to preach they would hold services as such.

Dearest Brother RSR---I was on the SAME subject matter of Frogman on his Number three posting (#3). It just took me awhile to retrieve this data to reply to "Frogmans" #3 postings. I had to check with my brother and some other folks down in that area to validate "WHAT BAPTIST" branch it was there at Red Banks at Accomack Virginia. As well as the time period. I had to gather up my ammunition get on this firing range that you have put me under. Self explainatory. I forgive you for your out bursts on this posting.

I think folks forget the trial the preachers went thru to share the WORD of GOD to Virginia. If you look on an old map of Colonial Virginia, You will see that Herdon , Virginia was at the invisiable line of FRENCH TERRITORY. Things changed thru the years as well as our Legendaries that God had ordained at those times before you or I were around. I highly commend "FROGMAN" to shout on the roof tops about this issue. Praise God that these folks were being taught the WORD of GOD and NOT some English King greedieness and his lousey government doctrines that infiltered into a Church that was still in control by the PAPAL in Rome, Italy. Again we have to go back to the well, that Jesus taught to a Samarian girl--that He (Jesus) is the living water. Yet we keep yapping about the cistern. It is the oposite to the living water. Paise God again for these folks in Ohio, Kentucky and other out reach areas of teaching the Word of GOD! So what, if they continued what the King said when they set foot on the New America's soil and that they were only allowed to meet once a month! You forget that the KING of England was the "Caesar" said at that time (kjv John 19:12}. The issue is that they did NOT Quit! Amen. Bye.

 

[abonmarche']

I found another interesting thing that the Old Regular Baptist had on the Shores of the Colonial Virginia under the Kings rule before Frederick signed the papers of releasing the Colonial lands to its churches and their trustees dated February of 1817. Was that they no longer paid tithings to the King. Now the articles of faith of the church were changed to offerings of gladness and joy. I also noted in one of "Frogmans" posting on the internet mailings that board we are reading, having to clarify to others, that on #69 of the Green River Assoc. articles. Amazing that they are right on, to the original ones of the Colonial Virginia articles. These folks had to be missionaries from the original landing and legendary folks who took to the water transportation and into the French Territories, to feed living water to folks living in the mountain areas. Wow.
I also noted that the splits aways started doctrines of washing of feet as well as a punishment to those who did not agree to such practices. Seems to be a old evil familiar spirit that we all know as from the Roman Catholicisms and Papal laws. Thank God, that they read Col 2:16, 17 as well as Romans 14: 5-6. In Col 2:16 Let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon, and etc. Why? We and those folks in Kentucky in 1817, were known by the Jews as gentiles. Gentiles had God's grace given to them that believed on the Blood atonement of Jesus Christ. So the original Baptist preachers, that were mostly locked up in debtor's jail houses and not allowed to preach the Word of God, had taught somebody in that group to "GO" as Jesus has commanded. I would call them missionaries at that time. In year 2007 it is called coloning. It was not the Lewis and Clarke exposition that got every on there to hear Gods Word. It was not PETER nor part of his students that brought you all to the place of faith that you all have, I commend you all. bye.

 

[abonmarche']

rsr: Guess what? I checked to the other sites and links about ORB. Again my findings I feel are correct. My talk was about these two men from the original ORB was from the coast line of Atlantic Ocean area before the Constitution of America's were even drafted up for the seperation from Britain. It was another two men that left that area headed West toward the French territory as well as heading Southwestward down the Shannandoah Valley to cross over the Daniel Boone trails thru a tunnel carved out into a side of a mountain one mile long by the hand of GOD, as well as that God knew these men were going to take God's Word into Kentucky, and Northwestward. I got this info from my sources of how the Baptist movements went and flowed across our continent.
Now back to my original comment and posting--another group left that same church and headed North up the Chesapeake Bay onto the Eastern shore. Two men, one was born in Lunenurg County, Virginia (an area West and South of Petersburg, Virginia today) in 1742 called Elijah Baker with his companion (remember Jesus in scripture said Two to be sent to testify) they did and set sail in 1776 along with Thomas Elliott. They ported at my farm called Messongo Farm. On Messongo Creek. Which is a safe harbor South of the Saxis Island jutting into the Bay area. They also traveled Eastwardly because the locals told them to hit the road--slang for get out of our neighborhood with your trash talk! Remember, it is the KING's church ruling this area plus the William Penn's clan of New Amsterdam- York's calverliers. Elijah was imprisoned in 1777 for 56 days and released in 1778. They built the Messongo Baptist Church in 1778 as well as a church built on land of the Bell's on the Atlantic Ocean side, about the same time called the Red Bank Church. In 1778 Elijah also with the help of Thomas Elliott set up the first Association there. So I do feel we are on the same subject of "Frogman's" postings. If I error on this Please tell me where did the ORB start? and What dates? Was it before 1776? Are these folks left overs from the French outposts of the French and American (opps--British) War? Remember that George Washington fought the French under the British Ruler of the new Colonial America's. Bye

 

[Bethelassoc]

Please tell me where did the ORB start? and What dates? Was it before 1776? Are these folks left overs from the French outposts of the French and American (opps--British) War? Remember that George Washington fought the French under the British Ruler of the new Colonial America's. Bye

Ok. I see what you are talking about now. We are talking about two different terms of Regular Baptists. This thread is based on the Old Regular Baptists which "officially" (name change) came about in the latter 1800s. The Regular Baptists of the Revolutionary War era were the Particulars that came from England, if I have my history correct.

You are referring to before the union of Regulars and Separates and we are referring to after the union. Even though the ORBs may be reflecting their roots with the name change, it is still after the KY General Union of 1801.

David

BTW, Green River Association is United Baptist not Old Regular, if I understand you correctly.

 

[abonmarche']

Thank You Bethalassoc for your responding of ORB.
Again, from my past findings and these past board postings and their (posters and reply on this thread) history and doctrines of faith, etc. still relate to the same Old Regular Baptist church on the Eastern Shore. Sure you are in the Mid western areas, but these Regular Baptist that came over to the Old Colonial America's had to start somewhere! My point is that, that the evangelist went and multiplied so fervently to other areas that the two persons on the most Eastern part of the continent were taught under the same church of "Regular" of the fellow called John Smyth who was ordained an Anglican priest in 1594 and died around 1612 that started this Regular Baptist movement. It was folks trained under him that went to the New America's called the British Colonies, later named changed to the Thirteen Colonies.They landed in Virginia port of Jamestown, and went to the other parts of North Carolina and Virginia to create these churches and convert these heathen settlers under the British King's churches called the Angelican Churches on British holdings. Basically we, the colonists were not knowingly educated but we became the British slaves by paying taxes on all things we accuried on the settled lands. Now you say but we live on the other side of mountains. YEP! But they say no fences saying they were on French Territory at that time or dates. The Colonial lines did not go that far inland from the Atlantic coast.
Another point I wish to bring out that, that you may have the right to change history in the wikipedia web site that talks about the Baptist regardless of the many branches we all are of. I hope this helps and not hinder anyone. Here is the link: General Baptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is why I am so excited about this thread--that the original part of all of us is on the Eastern shore. Kind of tucked in an old book and forgoten. bye.

 

[rsr]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Smyth was a general Baptist, a group that had a relatively small impact on the early American Baptists, who were primarily Particular and became the Regular Baptists.

 

[abonmarche']

In America, the General Baptists also declined and were often overtaken by the churches of the Regular Baptists. Remnants were probably responsible for the rise of the Free Will Baptists in North Carolina. Other groups have risen that have an Arminian general atonement emphasis, including the General Six-Principle Baptists and the General Association of General Baptists. Today (2005), the majority of English and American Baptist churches hold a moderately Calvinistic outlook, combining the general atonement whosoever will views of the General Baptists, with the total depravity and eternal security views of the Regular/Particular Baptists.

rsr: you said:Smyth was a general Baptist, a group that had a relatively small impact on the early American Baptists, who were primarily Particular and became the Regular Baptists.

I agree that, When Smyth died in 1612, that Smyth sent his legecy, roughly 2 generations (40 years) later to the New British lands called Colonials who started churches on these new lands. It was first General Baptist and later in the Colonials.Then changed some time later in the early 1700's to the Regular Baptist. Though NOT all churches changed its thought or its name. See my extracted comments from Wikipedia and what they are telling the whole world. It is not I. We are both in agreement but others are not. Thank you for the posting. Bye.

 

[rsr]

My point, I think, is that the vast majority of Baptists (or proto-Baptists) who came to America were Particulars, not Generals, and the influence of Generals was very limited, especially in the mainstream of Baptist life.

 

[Bethelassoc]

I had to check with my brother and some other folks down in that area to validate "WHAT BAPTIST" branch it was there at Red Banks at Accomack Virginia.

Here's my question: What Baptists are there on the eastern shore of VA now? Are they Old Regular Baptists or are they some other form of Baptist?

The reason why I ask is that regardless of who was there during the colonial period, you now have a cornucopia of Baptists that may/may not have come from the same sources. It wouldn't be just Old Regular Baptist, per se, but various Baptist denominations that can trace their roots back to that time period.

And as rsr pointed out, the General Baptists basically died out here in the states and only until Benoni Stinson revived the name did it take hold in some of the midwestern states. He, of course, came out of the United Baptists.

I guess we are looking at it from a time frame as well.

David

 

[abonmarche']

RE: Old Regular Baptist (revised) at the 02/07/07 posting[Two men, one was born in Lunenurg County, Virginia (an area West and South of Petersburg, Virginia today) in 1742 called Elijah Baker with his companion (remember Jesus in scripture said Two to be sent to testify) they did and set sail in 1776 along with Thomas Elliott. They ported at my farm called Messongo Farm. On Messongo Creek. Which is a safe harbor South of the Saxis Island jutting into the Bay area. They also traveled Eastwardly because the locals told them to hit the road--slang for get out of our neighborhood with your trash talk! Remember, it is the KING's church ruling this area plus the William Penn's clan of New Amsterdam- York's calverliers. Elijah was imprisoned in 1777 for 56 days and released in 1778. They built the Messongo Baptist Church in 1778 as well as a church built on land of the Bell's on the Atlantic Ocean side, about the same time called the Red Bank Church. In 1778 Elijah also with the help of Thomas Elliott set up the first Association there.] To my understanding and some info from some of my Mothers books that she wrote of that area, such as: "Coach-N-Four on the Eastern Shore" as well as Three Rivers--steam boat and a train to nowhere plus others. That her writtings, they had put a gag order on, by Court Orders, about this church of Preacher Baker, being called the Baptist lean-to structure of logs was called Messongo Old Regular Bapists. This tells me that they were of a different persuasion
then the folks from Rhode Island Baptist in the 1775's. I do not remember any mention or reading about Particular Baptist. I will try to get that link for you later. Notice that these two men came out of an area where they thought they may have been in North Carolina Territory then. Thanks. Bye.

 

[abonmarche']

I found it David posting for Bethel assoc.
They have not changed on the Eastern Shore--really isolated area. My farm in Accomack County had a population around 13,000 plus or minus.
Here is the link:
http://www.esva.net/ghotes/gazetter/redbankhistory.htm

 

[rsr]

Remember, it is the KING's church ruling this area plus the William Penn's clan of New Amsterdam- York's calverliers.

I'm not sure what this reference means. Penn was a Quaker, and Pennsylvania enjoyed religious liberty; he had nothing to do with New York.

This tells me that they were of a different persuasion
then the folks from Rhode Island Baptist in the 1775's. I do not remember any mention or reading about Particular Baptist.

I know of no evidence that Baker was anything but a Particular (read Benedict, who surely would have mentioned the fact had it been avaialble). The New England Baptist differed from their southern brethren, but not usually on doctrine.

 

[Virginia ORB]

abonmarche, I must say that I am confused by what you call Old Regular Baptist. I've not heard of any Old Regular Baptist Churches in Eastern VA. Are they Regular Baptists of olden times? Or is that their official title? Most Old Regular Baptist Churches that I know of trace their roots to United and Primitive Baptsits.

 

[old regular]

Old Regular Baptist

I have heard of the name Old Regular Baptist being on tombstones in the Tidewater areas, long before there was a New Salem Association,I also was told there were Old Regular Baptist near the Virginia Beach Area at one time.Their practice and faith would have been close to the Primitive---Old Regulars of today, and I would not be surprised if some of them esp. of Eastern N.C did not bring the name with them when they came into Ky.Old School Baptist have many titles, but are the same people. Brother Slone

 

[abonmarche']

Hello again rsr: I am basically saying that my contracts about this beginning had folks leave the port of Charleston, Carolina's as reported in our history books as well as the Colonialists legends of the "SYMTH" belief's were called the "Baptists" as well as some traveled Westerly thru the French Territory thru the "Daniel Boone" trails to the New West as where you folks are. However, another set of folks, that accepted Christ as their saviour and Baptised with their beliefs; left an area of Virginia around 1775-1776 to Evangelized citizens of the King. I will attach my email: to you for proof: This was pulled out of the Kings Records of tithing. Very similar writtings against these Two men witnessing the GOOD NEWS of Jesus to them. ::[In witness whereof I have set my hand and seale this 4th day of April 1699 and in the ninth year of the Reigne of our Sovereign Lord King William of England, Scotland, France and Ireland & C.] This was the Sheriffs and the Kings Peace Officer writtings. So, these two men "Baker and Elliott" being Baptist had to endure the King's church and their laws.
Some folks got converted and accepted Jesus as Saviour. Other were not tolerant of their MOUTH'S and sent them packing ACROSS land Easterly. You will notice that the link I sent, the Red Bank had three churches named Red Bank, because eventually the Messongo lean-to was changed to Red Bank Church. Here is LINK again:http: //www.esva.net/ghotes/gazetter/redbankhistory.htm

I am also fortifying the post number One by Frogman on this subject.
The Old Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ is one of the subdenominations of the Baptist church, and is concentrated in an area along the Virginia and Kentucky border. Churches are found in other states as a result of outward migration from the region. As of 1987, there were seventy-three Old Regular churches, with a membership of 3285. The first association of churches which would become the Old Regular Baptists was formed in 1825. The New Salem Association was formed out of the Burning Spring A ssociation. Of the eight churches which originally made up the New Salem Association, only two remain. It was this association of churches that adopted the term Old Regular Baptist in 1892. They adopted a doctrine somewhere between the Calvinistic Primitive Baptists and the more Arminian Free Will and Missionary Baptists.

 

[abonmarche']

Brother "rsr": About that issue of King of England verses the King of Netherlands, Amsterdam, it being also Holland. They to decided to Colonialize on the NEW America's. They brought over their religion as well as excellent surveyors. They even beat George Washington in surveying date wish in Colonialism. They landed at LEWES, DELAWARE which it is known today.
All the log cabins and buildings are exactly 16.5 feet each wall to wall in each area or room being a surveyors Rod measurement. Their territory according to them overlapped into Virginia. What about Maryland? It was not around then. Not until the Ark and Dove landed at a city they called St. Mary's City as well as lands called Mary's Land. The area settled by the Holland folks was named New Amsterdam later to be named New York. They landed a little shy of 250 miles to the South of New York City as we know it today. So, now comes along this man, called William Penn. He declares a monument between Virginia's King and himself with his signature ring on the stone as of today it is still there on the LAND at no town, but in a field, along a route 54 between Mardela Springs, Maryland and Delmar, Delaware. Then came these two fellows by an act of congress to settle the land dispute, called Mason and Dixon, both surveyors. So, today from that stone of William Penn signature on stone and to the East is the division line between Maryland and Delaware. And the Agreement for the old Queen Mary's line went by a magnet North from that stone to another corner stone Northwest of Newark, Del. along a Route 869. Now Satelite has change it all with the GPS.
So, that is why I said what I said as well as another story about another Calvinistic belief that landed on the Eastern Shore as well as that William Penn's militia had these preachers locked up in a stone fortress on an Island locked up for sharing God's word to them and the Citizens. Not Baptist. So, much for now to defend our family heritage.
Bye.

 

[abonmarche']

rsr posting #963172: I found it! Read what the kids are learning on "FactMonster.com" Site and here is the Link to William Penn--- http://www.factmonster.com/index.htm.---- The question is where did he land or port into in the New American Colonies? The historians at Lewes, Delaware site and the old-old-old village, attest that William Penn ported there. Where else was a port at that date?
Do not forget that William Penn had to travel extensively by animal into French Territory even though the British thought it was theirs as well as the American Indians thought it was their's, to make a report to his Father about his Father's and Families Estate decreed by King of England that was theirs in the Colonial America's.

Early LifeHe was expelled (1662) from Oxford for his religious nonconformity and was then sent by his father to the Continent to overcome his leanings toward Puritanism. He continued his religious studies, however, and in Ireland, where he had been sent (1666) to oversee the family estates, he became a staunch member of the Society of Friends. He was imprisoned (1668) for writing a tract (The Sandy Foundation Shaken) against the doctrine of the Trinity, but, undaunted, he wrote No Cross, No Crown and Innocency with Her Open Face while in the Tower of London. After his release (1669), Penn continued his writing, his many tracts including The Great Case of Liberty of Conscience (1670), in which he argued for religious toleration. He also went on preaching missions through England, the Netherlands, and Germany.
Sections in this article:

• Introduction

rsr Quote:
Originally Posted by abonmarche'
Remember, it is the KING's church ruling this area plus the William Penn's clan of New Amsterdam- York's calverliers.


I'm not sure what this reference means. Penn was a Quaker, and Pennsylvania enjoyed religious liberty; he had nothing to do with New York.
All this Preaching William Penn did in 1666 when he was sent to American Colonies. Please check that out "religious liberty" from what I read and documents of others--IT is hardly freedom. He was locked up in the London, England for his MOUTH and WRITTEN words--I personnaly do not see that any of these folks had Religious Freedom! Read the book of Daniel while he was praying in his room looking out the window. Was Daniel not thrown into the Lions Den? Daniel 6:10 knowing the King Darius laws? Daniel 6:16 He being Daniel (Hebrew) renamed Belteshazzar in command to Lions Den and in Daniel 4:19-22 He was delivered. This was not religious freedom! I go now. Bye.

 

[Virginia ORB]

I am also fortifying the post number One by Frogman on this subject.
The Old Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ is one of the subdenominations of the Baptist church, and is concentrated in an area along the Virginia and Kentucky border. Churches are found in other states as a result of outward migration from the region. As of 1987, there were seventy-three Old Regular churches, with a membership of 3285. The first association of churches which would become the Old Regular Baptists was formed in 1825. The New Salem Association was formed out of the Burning Spring A ssociation. Of the eight churches which originally made up the New Salem Association, only two remain. It was this association of churches that adopted the term Old Regular Baptist in 1892. They adopted a doctrine somewhere between the Calvinistic Primitive Baptists and the more Arminian Free Will and Missionary Baptists.

The church and membership total is incorrect. The 73 churches and 3285 membership total is for the Union Association alone. Please is this website for a more accurate estimate of membership:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Regular_Baptist

Are there any Old Regular Baptist churches in Eastern VA at the present?