Old Regular Baptist (revised)

[Bethelassoc]

Here's some history on GRA United Baptist:

The Green River Association Of United Baptist was formed (1799) from a committee of nine men from the associations of Elkhorn (Regular Baptist) and South Kentucky (Separate Baptist). They agreed to lay aside the Regular and Separate names and called themselves the "United Brethren of the Baptist Faith", shortened to be known as the United Baptist.

A faction from Green River called themselves Original Green River, which was in 1874. It was known as the "Moon Faction" (just 3 churches) and didn't get anywhere.

Green River is considered Landmark and they correspond with like United Baptists and Missionary Baptists. The churches are concentrated in Edmonson Co, KY.

I'll see what I can find on GRA Regular Baptist.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

The Green River Assn. of Regular Baptists mentioned before would have been in the Creston, KY area. I dont have a geographic frame of reference for the ones you fellows are mentioning.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

quote:
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The Washington Association was formed in 1811, as a daughter of the Holston Association
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Does this mean that since Holston was United Baptist at one time, and given that Washington was formed in 1811, it's a pretty good indicator that it too was United Baptist?

Also, Is Powell River the same a Powell Valley?

Thanks

Sorry about the Powell River/Powell Valley thing. There is a Powell's Valley Regular Primitive Baptist Association, never heard of a Powell's River Primitive Assn. I think Mr. Perrigine made a typo there, unless he intended to say something about the Three Forks of Powell's River Primitive Baptist Association, usually shortened to just Three Forks. At any rate, there is a typo somewhere in the wood pile.

As for the Holston, don't know if it ever considered itself "United" or not. THey didn't publish early minutes, and the records are in a ledger, been years since I looked at it.

 

[Frogman]

thanks Bethelassoc,
Cane Valley Baptist is located in northern Adair County, near to Green and Taylor County. The Green River Lake Resevoir is there in Taylor and Adair County.

I now live in Barren county, near the Barren River.

Barren is between Edmonson and Adair. All are in SouthCentral Ky. We are also landmark missionary Baptists.

We are 'independent' because many are no longer Sovereign Grace and we are, many around the Glasgow area consider us hard because of this and that we still practice discipline (not that others do).

The Green river Assoc. is not one our church was ever involved with to my knowledge. An older pastor just told me once that Cane Valley Baptist use to be in the Green River Association.

I have visited there once since joining the body at Grider Memorial Baptist. They are low arminian and have a seminary trained pastor, (this latter was very very important to them, though I was young when there, I remember this issue caused a division in the church).

At the time, I thought all baptists were the same, either separate, or SBC boy, I didn't know nothing did I so I thought this group was 'separate' because there was no recognition of any association.

There is a book here in our local library reference room on the Green River Assoc. I will get some notes from it and post them when I have the chance.

Bro. Dallas

For geographical reference, I am 75 miles west of Somerset and 35 miles northeast of Bowling Green. Edmonson County is just north of Bowling Green, though I can't remember if it borders on Barren or not, seems like it does border our northwestern county line, but I would have check it to be sure.

 

[Bethelassoc]

As for the Holston, don't know if it ever considered itself "United" or not. THey didn't publish early minutes, and the records are in a ledger, been years since I looked at it.

Hmm.. I need to find documentation as well. I've been going on the assumption they were since they formed several UB associations in TN.

I'll have to look more into that one. That will definately change my research.

 

[Bethelassoc]

About Holston:

Their "make-up" as an association is United Baptist.

According to a source, "Technically speaking, Holston Association was United Baptist from its founding in 1786 since its charter churches included maybe half a dozen Separate Baptist and one Calvinistic Regular Baptist churches, and they adopted the Philadelphia Confession as 'a general statement of principles' without binding any of their members to its strict observation. The second moderator, William Murphy, was slightly more Calvinistic than the first moderator, Tidence Lane."

They didn't have it in their title. My association, Bethel, has always been United Baptist, but didn't have that in the title until around 15 years after its establishment. Of course, when it did so, it drew the lines between it, the Primitive Baptists and the Missionary Baptists that attended there.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Me again.

I found a statement by the Old Regulars that looks into a possible correspondance with the daughter associations of Burning Springs. (I've tried to correct the spelling, but not the grammar.)

THIS WAS A RECORD OF A MEETING WITH THE UNITED BAPTIST AS TO TRY TO WORK OUT A WAY TO RETAIN CORRESPONDANTS WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN RESTORED

We the Church of Jesus Christ, known as Regular Baptists composed of New Salem, Union, Sardis, and Kyova Associations. At our regular session in the year on thousand, nine-hundred thirty-seven, hours of their session have their consideration, and advisibility or and each of the above names of the Association, during the business possibility of making an effort to revise a Christian Correspondence and fellowship with the various United Baptist Association: namely, Paint Union, Blain Union, Zion, Bethlehem, New Hope, Iron Hill, and Olive Associations. (I’ve not heard of this last association)

We do hereby submit the following proposition for consideration of the above named churches or United Baptist Associations who will meet with us by delegated and authorized representatives at the Buffalo Church of United Baptist, Johnson County, Kentucky on Friday before the first Saturday in October, 1937.

First realizing that both we, the regular Baptist and the United Baptist Brethren come from the same original association, and at that time were the same identical people in organization, Faith and Practice of Doctrine and at that time and for many years thereafter corresponded, and had mutual Fellowship until discord due to practices and indulgences and perhaps Doctrine which things served our Fellowship and Correspondence and Fellowship was totally destroyed and severed between us and the United Baptist Association.

II
1. That we do not deem the name “Regular” nor “United” essential and we are willing to allow the same name to exist if it pleases.

1. We will not Fellowship open Communion or Sunday Schools taught or conducted through Sectarian Literature, and we believe that the only ordained Medium by which men and women are taught is by God-sent men preaching under the demonstration of the Holy Ghost therefore we strictly oppose and so-called Auxillaries of the churches. Also, we denounce the use of what is known as Erected Altars or Maurners Benches, as we have neither example or precept of such, in the New Testament Scriptures.

1. We feel right certain that it is not in harmony with the scriptures for our Brethren to enter into a covenant with such unbelievers and such conditions in the past have been detrimental to the progress of the church, we say that we do not believe that our Brethren should be affiliated with Secret Societies or Orders.
(This next part is interesting)
2. We are opposed to doctrine as advocated by some of our United Baptist Brethren that they know beyond a doubt personally that they are saved, but we do believe that we are saved by Hope, which Hope is the Anchor of the Soul-Christ being our Hope.

1. We do not believe in partaking of other men’s sins, by preaching with and encouraging false doctrines.

Therefore we will not labor with nor in conjunction with those who are not orthodox in Doctrine and Practice.

J.C. Swindle, Moderator
John Hopkins, Asst. Moderator
H.M. Mullins, Clerk

p.271 - History of Regular Baptist, Perrigan

This agreement was met for a while, anyway. Union corresponded with most of the United Baptists mentioned.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Again with Perrigan:

It seems that he makes a contadiction in his book. He mentions on one page that Kyova Association came about from a split within Bethlehem United Baptist Association:

So there are two called Bethlehem. Bethlehem split again about 1910 over secret orders. The side who left are now called Kyova Association of Regular Baptists. pg. 35

And in other places, he makes these statements:

pg. 32
The New Salem Association organized the Kyova Association in 1924

(concerning the daughter associations of New Salem) pg. 136:

In 1924, an arm was given to organize the Kyova consisting of the following churches:

I tend to believe the latter statements than the first. Unless this group joined up with New Salem in order to be an arm off of them instead of Bethlehem, there's been a mistake.

What do you all think?

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brethren,
Because we have made mention of the Green River Association, I thought I would post this article of faith here.

The Green River Association was constituted in Warren County Ky [Bowling Green].

Articles of Faith of the Green River Association
Adopted at her constitution at the Sinking Creek Meeting House,
Warren County, Ky., June 1800
1. We believe in one only True and Living God, and that there are a trinity of persons in the God Head, the Father, Son., and Holy Ghost, and yet that there are not three Gods, but one God.

2. We believe that the scripture of the Old and New Testaments are the word of God, and the only rule of faith and practice.

3. We believe in the fall of Adam, and the imputation of his sin to his posterity, the corruption of human nature, and the impotency of man to recover himself by his own free will ability. 4. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and that good works are the fruit of faith, and follow after justification, and only justify us in the sight of men and angels, and are evidences of our gracious state.

5. We believe that the saints shall persevere in Grace, and that not one of them shall finally be lost.

6. We believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead and a general or universal judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.


Respecting the Gospel order -
7. We believe that the visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful persons, who have obtained fellowship with each other and have given themselves up to the Lord and one another, having agreed to keep up a Godly discipline according to the rules of the Gospel.

8. We believe that Jesus Christ is the great Head of the Church, and that the government thereof is with the body.

9. We believe that water baptism and the Lords Supper are ordinances of the Lord, and to be continued by his church til His second corning.

10. We believe that true believers are the only subject of baptism, and that dipping is the only mode.

11. We believe that none but regularly baptized church members have a right to commune at the Lords Table.

(Copied from the 1800 minutes of the Green River Association at the Library of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Ky. These 11 Articles of Faith also appear in the records of three of the oldest churches in South-Central Kentucky: Mill Creek Baptist Church, Monroe County; Clear Fork Baptist Church, Clinton County; Casey's Fork Baptist Church, Cumberland County.)

[Taken from Cawton and Warnell, PioneerBaptist Church Records of South-Central Kentucky and the Upper Cumberland of Tennessee, 1799-1899, rpt. 1987. jrd]


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[Bethelassoc]

Taken from Cawton and Warnell, PioneerBaptist Church Records of South-Central Kentucky and the Upper Cumberland of Tennessee, 1799-1899, rpt. 1987. jrd

This is a book that I am definately going to get. I have a contact that knows where to get it.

I also had GRA down for starting in 1800, but was told by some GRA members that they started in 1799 in Barren Co., at the old Mulkey Meeting House.

I definately need to look into this more.

David

 

[Frogman]

The Old Mulkey Meeting house is in Monroe County Ky. [Tompkinsville], East of Glasgow [Barren Co.].

They are having a festival, this year marks their Bi-Centennial.

I will try to visit there and will also search our local Library for primary sources.

There is a sign on mainstreet in Glasgow directing travellers to the route Ky. Hwy. 90 east (also Hwy 63) which will take them to the meeting house. The building may be very near the county line as the two are adjoining.

Bro. Dallas

Here is a link to the history of the Mulkey Meeting House:

Mulkey Meeting House

According to this link, the county of Monroe was previously part of Barren County, so I learned something else. It also appears that this group quickly left the Baptist ranks for the Campbellite camp, led by John Mulkey himself.

Links from a google search:

Mulkey History

[ April 29, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Bethelassoc]

According to this link, the county of Monroe was previously part of Barren County, so I learned something else. It also appears that this group quickly left the Baptist ranks for the Campbellite camp, led by John Mulkey himself.

I'm not surprised. I've noticed in my research of the United Baptists where Campbell left his mark in many of the associations, changing some over to his following; leaving others in a mess.

Thanks for the update. I'm interested in hearing the outcome.


On another note -

Bro. Dallas:

Are there any ORBs in your area?

 

[Frogman]

Dear Bethelassoc,
The closest we have is 1 PB congregation, in my visits to them I have been able to learn they stand on the historic PB faith and practice denying absolutism and two-seedism. Where these are not historic PB beliefs, forgive me, I am only stating what they have related to me. I think from my readings though this congregation would be considered by most to be in order.

We have mostly Landmark MB's; SBC's, 1 Gen. Bapt. Sep.Baptists, Independent Baptist, 1 'Full Gospel' Baptist, many of these declare their stand by S/Grace, while in practice they line up with Arminianism at best, in some cases, perhaps you can guess correctly the slope of the matter as well, these are moving from historic Baptist principles and really are presenting a form of 'new-lightism'.

IMHO at least.

I have considered gathering infomation on the Baptist groups in Barren County and making it available in our local library and online, I think that is a study I will pursue.

I will also get the information on the Mulkey Meeting House as soon as I can.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[rlvaughn]

Cawton and Warnell, Pioneer Baptist Church Records of South-Central Kentucky and the Upper Cumberland of Tennessee, 1799-1899, rpt. 1987

Y'all might be interested to know that Bro. Warnell is (or at least was) a member of a church in the New Salem Association of Old Regular Baptists, and was the clerk of the association.

Bro. Dallas, as far as historic Primitive Baptists go, I think most historians can agree on Two-Seedism being a new innovation. As far as "absolutism", I think you can find varying degrees of that among the Particular Baptists in general, and among the Primitive Baptists in particular. The Primitive Baptists divided over the issue of "Absolute Predestination" here in Texas around 1900 (although I think it was an issue that stewed for several years before it boiled over). Before that, those who held varying degrees on the issue were all one body.

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Brother Vaughn,
I just reread my post, I mean the body here in Barren Co. do not believe two-seedism and I am pretty sure they reject absolutism. Though maybe in degrees as you point out. We have that among MB's also; and though I have not fully embraced it, I find I am drawn towards it.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Dear Bethelassoc,
Thanks for providing me with the links to your research. I have enjoyed reading of the history of United Baptists.

I have also printed your information. I live in Barren Co. Ky. but have never heard of the Barren River #1 or #2 Assocs.

I also have ties to Wayne Co. Ky. was raised in Adair Co.

I am planning to try to add to your information regarding some of the Ky. Associations through resources here on the WKU campus. I will send you any information I can find.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Dallas:

I appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks!

Another ORB question:

Can somebody direct me to where I can obtain minute books from their associations? I will include ex-ORBs,like Burning Springs, as well.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Another bit of information:

You can also buy video tapes of ORB documentaries from various places. I have a copy of "In the Good Old Fashioned Way" by Appalshop, Whitesburg, KY (1973).

I purchased another video from Kevin Balling of Appalachian State University
http://www.asucom.appstate.edu/balling.html called "While the Ages Roll On" (1991).

And yet another video I have yet to purchase from KET public television:

World of Our Own: Kentucky Folkways...Customs and Beliefs ($23.90 w/s&h)
Call: 800.945.9167, Fax: 859.258.7399
KET, Tape Duplication

There is one segment on it that talks about the Old Regulars.

I also have a DVD called "That High Lonesome Sound" that has a small segment on the Old Regulars. http://800-buy-movies.com/altdvdgr/gr205763D1.htm

David

 

[rlvaughn]

Bro. David, I can get you names and addresses that are fairly recent for clerks and/or moderators of several Old Regular Associations. E-mail or pm me, and I'll look them up.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Vaughn:

I'll do that. Thanks.

BTW, I should be receiving a minute book from SGA soon.