Old School Baptist Doctrinal Debates

[old regular]

Pikeville

It is rare that I ever get to Pike Co, but would love to have breakfast with you sometime. My wife has family there as you know. I never made a motion to adopt that order it was a suggestion, I told that at the time it was not the answer, but it was something we might be able to live with.My doctrine was never a big issue among that correspondence some felt I was on the hard side of things but not extreme.We now correspond with associations that have the same problems in them, that your side does.They have treated me very fairly, and we don't have the power issues the otherside has.They practice more like the book of Judges, each does what is right in their own eyes.Our SGA would have been much larger if we would have dropped certain issues, but I too am hardheaded, and can't let somethings go, this is why Mountain Liberty granted us an arm, they saw just because we left the otherside we were not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.Most people haven't a clue how it came to be and I thought , it would be wrong not to tell you,after seeing the Sardis had adopted it.I know very little about whats going on , in those associations, around NNS they threaten to exclude those who vist our churches,even though in my opinion we keep better order than they do. The gap between us has gotten larger, I have never spoke of the split with Elder Carty.They pretty much have us cut off with no means of return.Not that we would return under their present conditions.All Old Regular Baptist should at least meet and talk things over, it was tried one time with the Union but they did not invite any others.Brother Slone

 

[Virginia ORB]

Brother Mike, I tried to send you a private message, but your inbox is full. Thanks.

Brother Keith

 

[Bethelassoc]

Church Fellowship

Bro. Slone,

You've mentioned before that you preach with United Baptists. Which churches do you normally visit?

David

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

We do preach with Patrick Creek United Baptist from W.Va independent but formerly member of Paint Union association, a minister out of Mt. Zion Association has preached amongst us and I know there has been some contact with a church that used to be in New Hope Association. I know you were addressing Brother Mike though.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

How about a Bishop according to timothy 3:2, would your Church consider these things to qualify or disqualify the candidate. Because I talk to some who think a Bishop being the husband of one wife is no different than any other member. But I always looked at it as though you can have a member thats not qualified in that department.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

How about a Bishop according to timothy 3:2, would your Church consider these things to qualify or disqualify the candidate. Because I talk to some who think a Bishop being the husband of one wife is no different than any other member. But I always looked at it as though you can have a member thats not qualified in that department.

Bro. Jeremy, was this meant for me?

I would say that, if a man is qualified for membership in the church, then he is, potentially, a candidate to preach/be ordained.

If a man's marital situation precludes him from being an Elder, then wouldn't it also preclude him from being a member? An adulterer can not be a member of the church and an adulterer can not be a minister. If a man is not an adulterer, then he can join the church and be ordained, if the church sees fit to do so.

1 Corinthians 2:14 states

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For someone who is living according to their very nature prior to coming to the church, how can they be held accountable for the laws of God and judgement of the church when they are incapable of discerning them?

As far as the church should be concerned, when the person presents themself as a candidate for baptism, we should view that as the start of that person's spiritual life and should therefore not judge their previous dead works. As far as the church is concerned, if that person is married when they join the church, that is their one and only spouse.

Now, if a man is a member of the church and leaves his wife for another woman, he should be excluded. If he remarries and comes back to the church for forgiveness, while still married to his second spouse, the church sees no repentance of the adultery there and should not take him back.

That would seem to answer the question. That man can not be a member while living in adultery and is therefore not a candidate to be ordained.

We lost our first Pastor to this same situation. It's very upsetting when a minister falls in adultery.

Hope that answers your question.

Bro. James

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

It was meant for who ever, why did you already address it earlier, sorry about that. I agree with alot of what you said brother James except when it comes to the Bishop, Deacon, or Widow for that matter. A Bishop must be blameless.

I have seen some preachers who have tempers. they get upset when you see it different. They might be a child of God but they are not qualified to be a Bishop in my opinion. I read some minutes for a church back in the early 1800s and the same brother was brought up in church work 4 times in five years for drinking to much and every time he confessed and they forgave him. Hes a member but i don't think he is blameless to be a Bishop. Do all members rule well their own house having his children in subjection, Might have a member with an out of control Teenager. I don't think its punishment but i don't think hes in a position to be a Bishop but He could still be a member. A Deacon's wife is to be faithful in all things. A man may be a member but his wife may not be faithful in all things so he is not a candidate. I honestly believe this way. why address it under a Bishop and Deacon if its not meant that way. Thats why a Bishop is to be a Husband of one wife. Because a wife is not qualified and if a Bishop has three exwives i don't think its a good example to the rest of the church. Does any one see it like i do?

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Bro. Jeremy,

I can see your point and I agree with you to a certain extent.

For the remarriages, if the man is not considered by the church to be living in adultery, and therefore does not have multiple wives, how can we say he is disqualified from the ministry based on his having multiple wives? If his divorces and remarriages are biblical, for fornication/adultery on the part of his wife, then the covenant is broken and that marriage is no more. If he remarries someone after that, his new wife is his one and only wife as the old one destroyed the covenant by sleeping around.

The problem I see that we have nowadays is that women are much more free and able to chose their own paths in life, whether in keeping with the biblical principles or not. If a woman wants to divorce her husband, for any reason, she is free to do so and the husband has no way to stop her legally. How then can we expect him to maintain a home with that one wife if she refuses to be obedient? Unlike biblical times, he can not take her out and have her stoned, and he can not beat her or spank her into subjection. If women were more free 2,000 years ago, or even 100 years ago, you would have seen so many more instances of divorce. One problem with our society nowadays is that anything is acceptable and divorce is encouraged if a marriage is struggling.

If more people would live biblical lives, according to the scriptures, I doubt this would be such an issue in the church today.

I hate to see anyone divorce, but if your spouse is continually cheating on you, then the only legal means of recourse that you have is divorce. It is unfortunate, but is sometimes necessary.

 

[old regular]

Divorce Rate

I read somewhere ,that the divorce rate, was 51% of new marriages is this correct? I hope not. Brother Mike

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Mike, the 51% is probably about right, and it is higher for those who have been married before.

Hope all is well in Kentucky.

Jeff

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Whew, Bro. Jeff, you'd better go to bed if you gotta preach tomorrow. Still up after 3am? Man, you oughta just stay up till church now.:laugh:

:wavey:

 

[Jeff Weaver]

No preaching here today, ice again, second Sunday in a row.

I see I am not the only Old Baptist insomniac.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

No preaching here today, ice again, second Sunday in a row.

I see I am not the only Old Baptist insomniac.

Yeah, but...you're an hour ahead of me.

I was actually up until about 3:30 my time. I was busy reading the word. My body'll get plenty of sleep when I'm dead.:sleeping_2:

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Of course, a power nap would be nice.:laugh:

 

[old regular]

Weekend Services

Here in Casey County we had a dusting of snow, the most we have had all year, it was in the low 60's Saturday and I preached over in Clay County, then Sunday Morning , I was at Mt. Moriah near Salyersville, Ky and back at Blessed Hope that evening(where there was no snow, but 5 miles noth of the church there was). We had good services at all three locations, a very good weekend. Bro Mike

 

[J.D.]

Question for Old Regulars, PB's & kinsmen: How many of you believe in absolute predestination of all things? And are "huffing" preachers common among your churches? (I think that's what it's called - hope I didn't use an offensive word)

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

Question for Old Regulars, PB's & kinsmen: How many of you believe in absolute predestination of all things? And are "huffing" preachers common among your churches? (I think that's what it's called - hope I didn't use an offensive word)

The Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptists believe in predestination. but if you mean absolute predestination of all things both good and evil then no one in our association that i am aware of. a site for the Blessed Hope church that has preaching and singing and i don't think any one is huffing but judge for your self. http://www.cumberlandbooks.com/bhservices

 

[old regular]

Huffing Preachers

I do not understand, what huffing preachers are? Please explain.I believe there is a difference in the decrees of God and predestination, there are Regular Baptist in the deep South, that hold to absolute predestination[The association was called Regular Baptist Association] and a few scattered about in other parts of the country, they tend to hold that foreknowledge and predestination are the same.While absolute predestination that does not make God the direct author of sin, has been tolerated by some, I know of no Old Regular Baptist that holds to the idea, that God makes us sin or ordains disobediance.The Soilders Creek Association of Regular Baptist in western Ky, were also absoluters.You may find a brother or sister here or there but no majority in any of the other associations.The term itself means different things to different people.There is a Primitive Baptist Website for absolute predestination, they differ with the Old Line Primitives on this issue.Most of the hardside of Regular Baptist believe that God decreed somethings directly and other things he decreed to suffer or permit, like the fall of Adam. I hope this helps. Brother Mike

 

[Jeff Weaver]

I do not understand, what huffing preachers are? Please explain.I believe there is a difference in the decrees of God and predestination, there are Regular Baptist in the deep South, that hold to absolute predestination[The association was called Regular Baptist Association] and a few scattered about in other parts of the country, they tend to hold that foreknowledge and predestination are the same.While absolute predestination that does not make God the direct author of sin, has been tolerated by some, I know of no Old Regular Baptist that holds to the idea, that God makes us sin or ordains disobediance.The Soilders Creek Association of Regular Baptist in western Ky, were also absoluters.You may find a brother or sister here or there but no majority in any of the other associations.The term itself means different things to different people.There is a Primitive Baptist Website for absolute predestination, they differ with the Old Line Primitives on this issue.Most of the hardside of Regular Baptist believe that God decreed somethings directly and other things he decreed to suffer or permit, like the fall of Adam. I hope this helps. Brother Mike

As a Primitive Baptist I would largely agree with Bro. Mike on this issue. Might disagree slightly on the foreknowledge/predestination issue, but we haven't discussed it.

There is a mix of perhaps 75%-25% of Primitive Baptists who believe in absolute predestination of all things, with the smaller fraction taking that point of view.

As for "huffing" preachers, yes there are still some around, as I understand the term, but their tribe is decreasing for the most part. Our biggest problem with preachers around these parts are those that revel in ignorance. The type which will say I don't know nothing or preach anything except what God gave me, and then proceed to make the biggest mess of things that ever was and then blame it on God. :BangHead: They annoy me almost as much as those who blame their sin on either God or the Devil, rather than take ownership of their own evil ways. Some Primitives and Old Regulars too, I suppose, ordain men who ought never to have been allowed in the stand, who have not studied to show themselves approved, etc.

But most of us try in our various ways to present the gospel in the way that we feel is God honoring. Granted not always an easy task.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

As a Primitive Baptist I would largely agree with Bro. Mike on this issue. Might disagree slightly on the foreknowledge/predestination issue, but we haven't discussed it.

There is a mix of perhaps 75%-25% of Primitive Baptists who believe in absolute predestination of all things, with the smaller fraction taking that point of view.

As for "huffing" preachers, yes there are still some around, as I understand the term, but their tribe is decreasing for the most part. Our biggest problem with preachers around these parts are those that revel in ignorance. The type which will say I don't know nothing or preach anything except what God gave me, and then proceed to make the biggest mess of things that ever was and then blame it on God. :BangHead: They annoy me almost as much as those who blame their sin on either God or the Devil, rather than take ownership of their own evil ways. Some Primitives and Old Regulars too, I suppose, ordain men who ought never to have been allowed in the stand, who have not studied to show themselves approved, etc.

But most of us try in our various ways to present the gospel in the way that we feel is God honoring. Granted not always an easy task.

Bro. Jeff,

I think the absolute predestination churches are much more prevalent in your neck of the woods, and other points north, than down here. I know of one church in Merryville, Louisiana and one in Grapeland, Texas that hold this view, but no others. Old Liners are much, much more prevalent down here than any other stripe of Old Baptist. We're probably 90% of all Primitive Baptist churches in Texas with 10% being other, whether liberal, progressive, absoluter, non-forgivers, etc. with whom we'll not fellowship.

As far as "huffing" preachers, I know of one who actually does go "huff" or maybe "hup" when he's mid-sermon, in what we would call "getting in a big way". There is much more prevalence of the "ah" or "uh" sound. I don't do it much, but I do on occasion when I'm getting into it and my thoughts are running faster than my mouth and I'm trying to get air.

Bro. Jeff, we also have ordained men whom I believe should never have been ordained. Sometimes churches get desperate for a pastor and will ordain someone just to hold that office. I feel sorry for the man who has to try and preach without a gift and the church who has to listen. It's not a good situation. Thankfully, it doesn't happen too often. Most of the time, down here anyway, men "introduce" services on occassion to test if they have a gift. If the church feels they do after some time, the church will vote to liberate that person, basically giving them license to preach. It is the formal recognition by the church to other churches and ministers that a man is believed to have a gift to preach and is now "set at liberty" to preach wherever he may go. I first started speaking in the church about 8 years ago and was liberated by the church last April. Once the man has preached for sometime, demonstrating to Elders and church people elsewhere that he has the gift, his home church will call for his ordination. The time between liberation and ordination varies from church to church, though in this neck of the woods it is usually many years. On average, I would say that liberation lasts about 5 years.

So, a man ought to have amply demonstrated his calling, if he has one, in that time. Most of the people I have seen ordained who were not called were ordained after a very short time of liberation or were ordained (maybe for pity?) after several decades of speaking in church.

Hope the weather will get better for you up that way.

Ours is like a see saw...up to 70 one day and down to 30 the next. After 2 solid weeks of rain, ice, etc, we finally got about 5 days of sunshine last week. Back to cold and raining again this week.

James:wavey: