Sis. Sarah
New Member
AMEN and AMEN! Brother Bob!
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Old School Baptist Doctrinal Debates
- Thread starter old regular
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Bethelassoc
Member
Yeah, I think that is making its rounds throughout different Baptist churches in KY. I remember it was tried in a church up home and caused a split amongst the members. We dubbed it "healing by proxy". They (those that do such) call it "standing in the gap" which is, of course, misinterpreting the scriptures.
David
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Can I change the "thread," I'm new at this?
If I may, since this is old school doctrine, I would like to ask Brother Bob, David and the others if you all could explain to me how the United Baptists came to have an erected alter in their churches while the Old Regulars do not. I come from a UB background but after reading about and attending an Old Regular service I am convinced I have been in the wrong setting since my Birth. I would just like to know how the two saw it differently and why the UB's put them in. I just read Matthew 5: 23,24 where Jesus said:
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Can someone who knows more than I explain it to me?
If I may, since this is old school doctrine, I would like to ask Brother Bob, David and the others if you all could explain to me how the United Baptists came to have an erected alter in their churches while the Old Regulars do not. I come from a UB background but after reading about and attending an Old Regular service I am convinced I have been in the wrong setting since my Birth. I would just like to know how the two saw it differently and why the UB's put them in. I just read Matthew 5: 23,24 where Jesus said:
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Can someone who knows more than I explain it to me?
Brother Bob
New Member
September, 1906
Big Branch Church A.L. Dempsey, Moderator
W.B. Estep, Assistant Moderator
Hi Maynard, Clerk
John Keesee, Assistant Clerk
Orders and Advice:
(1) Questions from Brushy Fork Church: Shall we endorse or fellowship Sabbath Schools or Mourners Benches directly or indi­rectly. Answer: We advise the Churches of our Union not to endorse or fellowship Sabbath Schools under its present form. We do not object to Mourners Benches in this sense, that is to say, that the Church or Ministers, when they think it appropriate, pray for any person or persons so desiring at time of worship. Memo: See 1930.
I suspect it had something to do with not being like the Catholic and others of using mourners benches to pray people's sins away. The church felt, I am sure that person needed to enter a closet and pray for his own sins, and when they come to the church it was to present and offering. I know for sure our doctrine is that the timber must be prepared in the field, before it will fit in the building. The church believes that everyone must pray for their own sins and the church is a place for the saved, and not a saving machine. They have this "sinners prayer" thing at the mourners bench, I am sure did not sit well with the Old Regulars. We can't save anyone, salvation is of the Lord.
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Sis. Sarah
New Member
Mourner's Bench
Thank you Brother Bob. I have been checking all day/night for your reply. In fact I emailed someone else about it this morning. I was thinking about the masonic lodge even and wondering if it was a ritual sort of thing they introduced but I never even thought about the Catholics doing that. This is a facinating subject for me. All I can say is that I have known of people sincerely going to the bench, which I don't believe had any virtue in it at all nor the action, but that it was what they did out of submission in their heart for they wanted to show they were not ashamed of their submission to God in confessing their sin openly before Him and the world. However, far more often I have seen people make a mockery of God and the Church in doing a ritual with smiles on their faces or even laughing when they went and laughing when the got up. And then they would be baptized with water into the "church." Well, I know what you mean about the timber being prepared in the field before it is fit for the building. If we do not carry our alter in our heart as Abraham carried his and get it right with the Lord there, we will never be fit for His building, the Kingdom of Heaven. And this old building we live in now, our body, will never be fit for Heaven, which is why we get a new one some glad day. It is sad how the alter or mourner's bench as we call it has been defiled in the natural sense only. It makes me sad and makes my heart break for the United Baptist places I once loved more than any. But there is something in the Old Regulars I am praying will lead the Uniteds back to God and I am only speaking to the ones in my heart that I know have gone astray. I believe they are God's people, just that they have strayed as the Children of Israel did so long ago. What a blessing it is to have you all to talk to on here.
Thank you Brother Bob. I have been checking all day/night for your reply. In fact I emailed someone else about it this morning. I was thinking about the masonic lodge even and wondering if it was a ritual sort of thing they introduced but I never even thought about the Catholics doing that. This is a facinating subject for me. All I can say is that I have known of people sincerely going to the bench, which I don't believe had any virtue in it at all nor the action, but that it was what they did out of submission in their heart for they wanted to show they were not ashamed of their submission to God in confessing their sin openly before Him and the world. However, far more often I have seen people make a mockery of God and the Church in doing a ritual with smiles on their faces or even laughing when they went and laughing when the got up. And then they would be baptized with water into the "church." Well, I know what you mean about the timber being prepared in the field before it is fit for the building. If we do not carry our alter in our heart as Abraham carried his and get it right with the Lord there, we will never be fit for His building, the Kingdom of Heaven. And this old building we live in now, our body, will never be fit for Heaven, which is why we get a new one some glad day. It is sad how the alter or mourner's bench as we call it has been defiled in the natural sense only. It makes me sad and makes my heart break for the United Baptist places I once loved more than any. But there is something in the Old Regulars I am praying will lead the Uniteds back to God and I am only speaking to the ones in my heart that I know have gone astray. I believe they are God's people, just that they have strayed as the Children of Israel did so long ago. What a blessing it is to have you all to talk to on here.
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Mourner's Bench thought continued
Another thing, I actually started to write a paper once on the "power of persuasion" like Hitler used and others, and mind control in a group setting because I am telling you, I have seen these techniques used in places that are false churches (in my opinion) to get little children and the weak minded to go through the ritual of going down to the bench. I don't care who gets angry with me at these places, one in particular I know, because it is of the Devil and I will fight it till the day I die. I am not a preacher, and I cannot speak as a man does in the church, but I can write about it and let the children know not to go to places like this...give me your thoughts...
Another thing, I actually started to write a paper once on the "power of persuasion" like Hitler used and others, and mind control in a group setting because I am telling you, I have seen these techniques used in places that are false churches (in my opinion) to get little children and the weak minded to go through the ritual of going down to the bench. I don't care who gets angry with me at these places, one in particular I know, because it is of the Devil and I will fight it till the day I die. I am not a preacher, and I cannot speak as a man does in the church, but I can write about it and let the children know not to go to places like this...give me your thoughts...
Brother Bob
New Member
We have many United Baptist come to our churches. There is one area, if they hear that I am going to be at one of the churches or a funeral many come out to hear. I am told later what they said about me.
I have several United Baptist that comes to my church.
This coming association we are supposed to pick up another United Baptist church. There have been many come from United to Old Regulars since I been a Christian.
I have several United Baptist that comes to my church.
This coming association we are supposed to pick up another United Baptist church. There have been many come from United to Old Regulars since I been a Christian.
Sis. Sarah
New Member
More thoughts on mourner's benches
You know Brother Bob, I can' stop thinking about this now. This is what I mean that I believe I must be of the Old Regular faith and order and never even knew they existed. I wrote about this on our web site. I mean the fact that God does the saving and not the church body. I couldn't think of how to say it but you did so well. I mean I never considered the Catholic thing, but I am wondering now, since I have seen both sides of the argument, if it was because the United churches wanted to "see" with their natural eye some type of repentance that they kept the benches because I have always heard their preachers say, 'It is more than just coming up here and giving the preacher your hand." I wonder if they were referring back to not having a bench there because they wanted to "see" some proof of salvation??? I wonder if they were thinking that too many unsaved were coming into the body and now I am wondering if the natural bench is not drawing too many unsaved into the Uniteds' bodies? It is no laughing matter but I just can't stop dwelling on it today. You know, it seems as I think back on it that all the ones I have confidence in never really gave a testimony of going to the bench. Even the ones I have known to do it have given a testimony of God dealing with them before they got there...
You know Brother Bob, I can' stop thinking about this now. This is what I mean that I believe I must be of the Old Regular faith and order and never even knew they existed. I wrote about this on our web site. I mean the fact that God does the saving and not the church body. I couldn't think of how to say it but you did so well. I mean I never considered the Catholic thing, but I am wondering now, since I have seen both sides of the argument, if it was because the United churches wanted to "see" with their natural eye some type of repentance that they kept the benches because I have always heard their preachers say, 'It is more than just coming up here and giving the preacher your hand." I wonder if they were referring back to not having a bench there because they wanted to "see" some proof of salvation??? I wonder if they were thinking that too many unsaved were coming into the body and now I am wondering if the natural bench is not drawing too many unsaved into the Uniteds' bodies? It is no laughing matter but I just can't stop dwelling on it today. You know, it seems as I think back on it that all the ones I have confidence in never really gave a testimony of going to the bench. Even the ones I have known to do it have given a testimony of God dealing with them before they got there...
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Old Regulars and Uniteds
Brother Bob, I don't want to hurt any United people's feelings, and I don't mean any disrespect in this at all, but ever since I have been talking to the Old Regular Baptist preachers and people I have gotten to know, I have been praying to God He would somehow send the Old Regular Baptist preachers back into the United churches and bring them back to God as Gomer came back to Hosea. I mean it is the truth, I can only think of 3 out of the say, 50 or so United Baptist preachers I have ever known that really preach anything like the Old Regulars. I am not blaming the Church of God, but I am saying that the natural temples have become so defiled, the natural church bodies, just like in the days of old, that this is the reason our children are not only dying in sin but are perishing for lack of knowledge. How I wish I would have heard good old time preaching from the days of my youth when I first got saved. It has a been a horrible and rough road at times, but one thing I know, as you already said, salvation is of the Lord and I thank God it is not of the visible or natural church body! Thank God and praise His Holy Name!
Brother Bob, I don't want to hurt any United people's feelings, and I don't mean any disrespect in this at all, but ever since I have been talking to the Old Regular Baptist preachers and people I have gotten to know, I have been praying to God He would somehow send the Old Regular Baptist preachers back into the United churches and bring them back to God as Gomer came back to Hosea. I mean it is the truth, I can only think of 3 out of the say, 50 or so United Baptist preachers I have ever known that really preach anything like the Old Regulars. I am not blaming the Church of God, but I am saying that the natural temples have become so defiled, the natural church bodies, just like in the days of old, that this is the reason our children are not only dying in sin but are perishing for lack of knowledge. How I wish I would have heard good old time preaching from the days of my youth when I first got saved. It has a been a horrible and rough road at times, but one thing I know, as you already said, salvation is of the Lord and I thank God it is not of the visible or natural church body! Thank God and praise His Holy Name!
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Jeremiah 23: 11,16
For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. Jeremiah 23: 11, 16
For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. Jeremiah 23: 11, 16
Brother Bob
New Member
I pray you find a church close to you that you will feel "at home". Our brothers preach, there is more to it than just coming up here and the reason they do is because so many churches say to the unsaved, come up here and pray the sinners prayer and you will be saved. I suspect the United Brethren meant "repentance" was what was more to it, for that is what we mean.
There was going to be 4 United Churches coming to our Association this year, but they backed out for some reason and I think maybe the mourner benches had something to do with it for they would have had to get rid of them to come to us.
There was going to be 4 United Churches coming to our Association this year, but they backed out for some reason and I think maybe the mourner benches had something to do with it for they would have had to get rid of them to come to us.
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Mourner's Benches continued and Preaching
I hope what I said earlier about the preaching didn't sound like I was trying to blame the preachers we have in the United churches for my and everyone else's sins. I don't mean it that way. All I can say in all honesty is that they don't preach on sin. Everything is how God is a God of love and how that we need to repent, but they never come out with it from the Bible what God hates. They will say God hates sin, but that is it and to be quite frank, I am on here because I can't find any except my Dad, a preacher, who reads their Bible and wants to talk about the Lord with me, anywhere. (Except some new Old Regular friends I have met.) It is like the Lord is a one-day-a-week game they play or something. And they tell me right out that they go to church to have a social life, family life, etc. I keep saying that is not what the Church of the Living God is for, but I am not a preacher. God help the Church. How I pray you all come and visit the United churches. And yes, this is why I am trying my hardest to understand this difference in the mourner's benches. It may be a custom they have but if they don't read their Bibles, and they have seen it all their lives, like I did, how are they ever going to know? I mean a lot, I believe most now, are just not saved, but as for those of us who are, I know if they would only seek Jesus said they would find. I do, ever time I ask Him to reveal it to me He does.
I hope what I said earlier about the preaching didn't sound like I was trying to blame the preachers we have in the United churches for my and everyone else's sins. I don't mean it that way. All I can say in all honesty is that they don't preach on sin. Everything is how God is a God of love and how that we need to repent, but they never come out with it from the Bible what God hates. They will say God hates sin, but that is it and to be quite frank, I am on here because I can't find any except my Dad, a preacher, who reads their Bible and wants to talk about the Lord with me, anywhere. (Except some new Old Regular friends I have met.) It is like the Lord is a one-day-a-week game they play or something. And they tell me right out that they go to church to have a social life, family life, etc. I keep saying that is not what the Church of the Living God is for, but I am not a preacher. God help the Church. How I pray you all come and visit the United churches. And yes, this is why I am trying my hardest to understand this difference in the mourner's benches. It may be a custom they have but if they don't read their Bibles, and they have seen it all their lives, like I did, how are they ever going to know? I mean a lot, I believe most now, are just not saved, but as for those of us who are, I know if they would only seek Jesus said they would find. I do, ever time I ask Him to reveal it to me He does.
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Finding a church
The truth is Brother Bob, I cannot come to an Old Regular Baptist church as a member, because I have been married and divorced (after a horrible 10 year marriage) and then remarried and divorced again (this man divorced me and went to another). So like I said, if I could only come and listen to the preaching, even outside the door, it would mean all to me because God's Word is the only life I have ever had to keep me alive. And it would be worth all of my punishing and sorrow if Mother's little Children could see me, my life, as an example to keep them from the trouble I have had and to see that my love is with God above all else for the church is for His pleasure and nothing else. If my pain can but show one little girl what men (mankind) will do to her then that is worth all suffering I have gone through down here. I want them to know God's House is a clean house, Spiritually and naturally.
The truth is Brother Bob, I cannot come to an Old Regular Baptist church as a member, because I have been married and divorced (after a horrible 10 year marriage) and then remarried and divorced again (this man divorced me and went to another). So like I said, if I could only come and listen to the preaching, even outside the door, it would mean all to me because God's Word is the only life I have ever had to keep me alive. And it would be worth all of my punishing and sorrow if Mother's little Children could see me, my life, as an example to keep them from the trouble I have had and to see that my love is with God above all else for the church is for His pleasure and nothing else. If my pain can but show one little girl what men (mankind) will do to her then that is worth all suffering I have gone through down here. I want them to know God's House is a clean house, Spiritually and naturally.
Brother Bob
New Member
..........
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Divorce Issue
First, I want to thank Elder Bob for speaking with me through individual messages. I would like to say he is a very nice man who stands for what he believes in. I told him I would continue to pray about this (as I have been for many years now). Sharing my own issues on this topic, especially after speaking with Elder Bob and reading on the subject from the board, but most of all after having a little talk with Jesus leaves me with these final thoughts. Of course everyone has their personal relationship with the Lord and each must work out his or her own salvation with fear and trembling though there is only one gift of salvation and it comes from God only. Well, here are my thoughts in hoping and praying for a home church:
1.) If my cheating, fornicating, abusive, and drinking spouse (habits he picked up later in our marriage after getting with the wrong crowd I know) ever wanted to come back to me I would take him back because I love him with the Love of God. Yes, he offended me at least 70 x 7. So I would expect the same from the church I went too though I would rely on God's Word to help this person straighten up because God can and I can't, or couldn't because I'm not God no matter how good of a forgiving wife I was. I can't seem to understand the non-association with each other church (reading from OSB Doctrinal Debates Thread)? If the churches can't stay together how can we preach it to our children? Can't fornicate with fornicating churches? Then why tell a spouse to? That's just yucky and what about diseases? I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all and I love you all sincerely, as I do the Uniteds. Yes, we're all one Spiritual Body with different members but I can't very well divorce (cut off communication) with my husband's arm and keep his head???
2.) It was thanks to talking with Elder Bob, who truly spoke with me as a daddy would, I come to realize, as I never have before in such a manner I suppose, that the vows I took upon joining God's Church when I was born again and in performing that natural (I had only considered the Spiritual mostly before) act of communion in taking part in His body as one, and the baptism of water representing "till death do we part" to me...is the most important earthly marriage vow I ever made in the natural as well as the Spiritual. So I am not sure if this is where Catholics get the idea their priest and nuns are "married" to the church body or not, but while I in no way believe this is the same as a marriage to man or woman, I do believe God never divorces His Children and therefore I have to change my former statement to I would not be content to just sit outside the door and hear the preaching. If you can't live it, you can't preach it.
I just believe if God does not want us to keep company with fornicators then this means us individually as well as churches. Yet He said not to neglect not the assembling of ourselves. How can a member forced to live with a cheating spouse not bring fornication into the church body? And what about those unmarried who, I know not all but some, are committing fornication and avoiding making vows? We all know this happens. But they have still made a vow to the church and God in being baptized with water and taking communion. This too is a public vow on a natural record. I know the whole body hurts when one falls short, the smaller the body the stronger it is felt, just imagine when two split where at least one thought they never would. I've been feeling a whole lot like Gomer for the past few years, but now I'm coming closer and closer to realizing what Hosea must have felt like. I love God's Church, United, Old Regular, Baptist, Catholic you name it whatever you want, but She is no harlot. Adultery is in the heart, murder is committed with the tongue and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.
I'm just a woman and I truly don't mean to be disrespectful. But if anyone reading this doesn't want their harlots or publicans you can send them our way. As long as they show a sincere heart towards God I will love them. I know we may differ on how we interpret these things, but I want you all to know, from reading OSB Doctrinal Debate and with Elder Bob's patience I have received the comfort I had been praying for all day, but the comfort came from God. (I'll be on vacation till next week. Don't you all yell at me too much while I'm gone.)
First, I want to thank Elder Bob for speaking with me through individual messages. I would like to say he is a very nice man who stands for what he believes in. I told him I would continue to pray about this (as I have been for many years now). Sharing my own issues on this topic, especially after speaking with Elder Bob and reading on the subject from the board, but most of all after having a little talk with Jesus leaves me with these final thoughts. Of course everyone has their personal relationship with the Lord and each must work out his or her own salvation with fear and trembling though there is only one gift of salvation and it comes from God only. Well, here are my thoughts in hoping and praying for a home church:
1.) If my cheating, fornicating, abusive, and drinking spouse (habits he picked up later in our marriage after getting with the wrong crowd I know) ever wanted to come back to me I would take him back because I love him with the Love of God. Yes, he offended me at least 70 x 7. So I would expect the same from the church I went too though I would rely on God's Word to help this person straighten up because God can and I can't, or couldn't because I'm not God no matter how good of a forgiving wife I was. I can't seem to understand the non-association with each other church (reading from OSB Doctrinal Debates Thread)? If the churches can't stay together how can we preach it to our children? Can't fornicate with fornicating churches? Then why tell a spouse to? That's just yucky and what about diseases? I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all and I love you all sincerely, as I do the Uniteds. Yes, we're all one Spiritual Body with different members but I can't very well divorce (cut off communication) with my husband's arm and keep his head???
2.) It was thanks to talking with Elder Bob, who truly spoke with me as a daddy would, I come to realize, as I never have before in such a manner I suppose, that the vows I took upon joining God's Church when I was born again and in performing that natural (I had only considered the Spiritual mostly before) act of communion in taking part in His body as one, and the baptism of water representing "till death do we part" to me...is the most important earthly marriage vow I ever made in the natural as well as the Spiritual. So I am not sure if this is where Catholics get the idea their priest and nuns are "married" to the church body or not, but while I in no way believe this is the same as a marriage to man or woman, I do believe God never divorces His Children and therefore I have to change my former statement to I would not be content to just sit outside the door and hear the preaching. If you can't live it, you can't preach it.
I just believe if God does not want us to keep company with fornicators then this means us individually as well as churches. Yet He said not to neglect not the assembling of ourselves. How can a member forced to live with a cheating spouse not bring fornication into the church body? And what about those unmarried who, I know not all but some, are committing fornication and avoiding making vows? We all know this happens. But they have still made a vow to the church and God in being baptized with water and taking communion. This too is a public vow on a natural record. I know the whole body hurts when one falls short, the smaller the body the stronger it is felt, just imagine when two split where at least one thought they never would. I've been feeling a whole lot like Gomer for the past few years, but now I'm coming closer and closer to realizing what Hosea must have felt like. I love God's Church, United, Old Regular, Baptist, Catholic you name it whatever you want, but She is no harlot. Adultery is in the heart, murder is committed with the tongue and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.
I'm just a woman and I truly don't mean to be disrespectful. But if anyone reading this doesn't want their harlots or publicans you can send them our way. As long as they show a sincere heart towards God I will love them. I know we may differ on how we interpret these things, but I want you all to know, from reading OSB Doctrinal Debate and with Elder Bob's patience I have received the comfort I had been praying for all day, but the comfort came from God. (I'll be on vacation till next week. Don't you all yell at me too much while I'm gone.)
Sis. Sarah
New Member
If it helps just one person I am willing to share with you all…
Dear friends, my blessed old pastor taught me many years ago that when we all share our own personal hardships, troubles and trials our failures in life might help someone else somewhere along life’s way so I am willing to do this in that same Spirit of Love. I want you all to know that I am a sociologist by trade second only to a born again Christian first and foremost. I have spent my whole life studying people and how they interact with each other on a personal basis in regards to social groups. The Church of the Living God is more than a social group of people. We all know this who have been born again, but the world does not understand this and especially young Christians who have not had much of the meat or those who have grown so cold and indifferent in human sin may forget as we are all subject to the sins of this old flesh.
So I’m going to share with you all some very personal experiences I have had in the hopes that it may help someone else. Let me just say that so many times since I returned home to Indiana and my folk’s household have I seen those who have been cut off, had some failure, shortcoming in their lives either due to sin or persecution, such as myself, try to turn the physical church body into an object of human, fleshly lusts and desires in their travail from (wo)man’s depraved nature to birth by bringing in social and auxiliary functions, rituals, and all manner of human, sensual desires among God’s people in the buildings made with hands. This is why I know God put me in contact with the Old Regular faith and order, because I have been asking of Him and searching for He is faithful. I don’t know how the United Baptist people have gone as far as they have in the modern organizations I have been to around here other than they have been grossly deceived by men as I myself have been at times. So this is why I say I love them even in their error because God still loves me even when He sees me err. I wrote this very personal email to a Brother and Sister in Christ just the other day as we discussed me coming to church (an Old Regular Baptist Church) with them as a member. I cannot tell you the joy I have had as I have spoken with every Old Regular Baptist member I have met from all the churches they have been from. I know we all try to represent our families well before outsiders and that one must be family to really “fight” amongst themselves. But as I always tell the clients I work with in social services, “Just be thankful that God has given you a family to fight with. Some of us don’t have that.” Here is the email:
The main problem, Brother, is that I just feel useless to God. I know I am grieving over my history of divorce, and God is working with me. I just need to see what He wants me to do. I am constantly wrestling with whether or not I am trying to do something within myself or if it is truly something God wants me to do and if I can be of use to Him anymore in a church body (as an accepted member). I cannot do anything and don't want to if I am just trying to substitute the church and any works I believe I am to do for not having a husband. I know you probably can't understand what I mean because you are happily married. But this is an issue for people like me. I believe some people may be trying to do things in the church (a social body) because they are missing out on some other aspect of their lives like a family, work, etc. I have seen it a lot and even in a church where there are no social clubs, auxiliary functions, etc a person such as myself may unconsciously think he or she is called to do something because they are depressed, lonely, etc. Sometimes when I wish I had a church family of more than just my Mom and Dad I think I am just lonely because I don't have a husband. I don't want to be guilty of this and it is a battle I have to be honest about because I face it each day of my life and I have to know if this battle is from the Devil or if God is telling me I cannot be a useful and fully accepted natural member of a visible church body anymore without contaminating it. I love the church too much to do this.
I tried to explain to someone else that to exclude people like me is to prevent us from taking part in our visible marriage to God, our water baptism and communion which amounts to being put away to me in my heart and God does not put us away [Spiritually] I believe, even when we cheat on him in the flesh [He does demand repentance and obedience once we understand though] because we cannot fall from salvation grace. On the other hand, yes I know we need to keep the church clean just like any person doesn't want a spouse that is unclean or a fornicator. You see how I am dwelling on three different levels of this? There is the first, husband and wife; The second, visible church body and its natural member, and; The third, Spiritual Kingdom of Heaven and the Spirit within us. The struggle lies in reconciling all of these within one person, me. The first level is a total loss, the second I am striving to reconcile, and the third is secure in God.
With Love,
Finally, I believe God calls all sinners to be saved. And He pre-qualifies a man or woman for any particular, individual work they are to do within the social, visible body of the Church down here because He knows us before we are even conceived in our mother’s womb. He also knows who will make it through the fire and the flood even though He does not will, nor ever has, that we should go through torment in this earthly life, that was decided when Adam fell. Well I am no different than Adam, except that the Spirit in me will live forever by the Grace of God only. I work with a lot of people who are mentally and/or emotionally ill, schizophrenic, paranoid, and have multiple personality disorders. I think a lot about what a good and pastor friend of mine told me once. He said that the world looks on us Christians as “crazy” in the things that we will do and say when we go by faith and not sight. Well, writing all this may appear to some to be “crazy,” but I don’t care because I have had a few in my life who were not afraid to lay the foundation, go before me and set the example. And so what I am saying is that I can kind of understand the “crazy” comment when we as Christians, like old Paul the Apostle wrote about, stop to consider we do speak in terms of there being “two men.” And to dwell on the outer man, whether leading us to sin or trying to justify ourselves, is just not Spiritual in my humble belief. An ex-con once told me, "We don't all start out the race in the same place." He was talking about life in general I suppose, but we all have another race to run. I'm just glad God saves all sinners, regardless of where they start out or how many hurdles they may have to overcome. Sometimes I wish we all did come from the same good old Christian based homelife and background, but this still would not save us from sin. And I often think of the faith that the three Hebrew children had to say that even if their God did not deliver them then they still would not bow to Baal. There are times in my life when I thought, "God, why haven't you delivered me?" But you know what? There was this young maid one time that told her daddy to go ahead and sacrifice her as he had promised God. And he did it. Well now, this is where I am at this point in my walk with God. You all just keep praying for people like me, okay? As usual, I have written too much. In Love,
Dear friends, my blessed old pastor taught me many years ago that when we all share our own personal hardships, troubles and trials our failures in life might help someone else somewhere along life’s way so I am willing to do this in that same Spirit of Love. I want you all to know that I am a sociologist by trade second only to a born again Christian first and foremost. I have spent my whole life studying people and how they interact with each other on a personal basis in regards to social groups. The Church of the Living God is more than a social group of people. We all know this who have been born again, but the world does not understand this and especially young Christians who have not had much of the meat or those who have grown so cold and indifferent in human sin may forget as we are all subject to the sins of this old flesh.
So I’m going to share with you all some very personal experiences I have had in the hopes that it may help someone else. Let me just say that so many times since I returned home to Indiana and my folk’s household have I seen those who have been cut off, had some failure, shortcoming in their lives either due to sin or persecution, such as myself, try to turn the physical church body into an object of human, fleshly lusts and desires in their travail from (wo)man’s depraved nature to birth by bringing in social and auxiliary functions, rituals, and all manner of human, sensual desires among God’s people in the buildings made with hands. This is why I know God put me in contact with the Old Regular faith and order, because I have been asking of Him and searching for He is faithful. I don’t know how the United Baptist people have gone as far as they have in the modern organizations I have been to around here other than they have been grossly deceived by men as I myself have been at times. So this is why I say I love them even in their error because God still loves me even when He sees me err. I wrote this very personal email to a Brother and Sister in Christ just the other day as we discussed me coming to church (an Old Regular Baptist Church) with them as a member. I cannot tell you the joy I have had as I have spoken with every Old Regular Baptist member I have met from all the churches they have been from. I know we all try to represent our families well before outsiders and that one must be family to really “fight” amongst themselves. But as I always tell the clients I work with in social services, “Just be thankful that God has given you a family to fight with. Some of us don’t have that.” Here is the email:
The main problem, Brother, is that I just feel useless to God. I know I am grieving over my history of divorce, and God is working with me. I just need to see what He wants me to do. I am constantly wrestling with whether or not I am trying to do something within myself or if it is truly something God wants me to do and if I can be of use to Him anymore in a church body (as an accepted member). I cannot do anything and don't want to if I am just trying to substitute the church and any works I believe I am to do for not having a husband. I know you probably can't understand what I mean because you are happily married. But this is an issue for people like me. I believe some people may be trying to do things in the church (a social body) because they are missing out on some other aspect of their lives like a family, work, etc. I have seen it a lot and even in a church where there are no social clubs, auxiliary functions, etc a person such as myself may unconsciously think he or she is called to do something because they are depressed, lonely, etc. Sometimes when I wish I had a church family of more than just my Mom and Dad I think I am just lonely because I don't have a husband. I don't want to be guilty of this and it is a battle I have to be honest about because I face it each day of my life and I have to know if this battle is from the Devil or if God is telling me I cannot be a useful and fully accepted natural member of a visible church body anymore without contaminating it. I love the church too much to do this.
I tried to explain to someone else that to exclude people like me is to prevent us from taking part in our visible marriage to God, our water baptism and communion which amounts to being put away to me in my heart and God does not put us away [Spiritually] I believe, even when we cheat on him in the flesh [He does demand repentance and obedience once we understand though] because we cannot fall from salvation grace. On the other hand, yes I know we need to keep the church clean just like any person doesn't want a spouse that is unclean or a fornicator. You see how I am dwelling on three different levels of this? There is the first, husband and wife; The second, visible church body and its natural member, and; The third, Spiritual Kingdom of Heaven and the Spirit within us. The struggle lies in reconciling all of these within one person, me. The first level is a total loss, the second I am striving to reconcile, and the third is secure in God.
With Love,
Finally, I believe God calls all sinners to be saved. And He pre-qualifies a man or woman for any particular, individual work they are to do within the social, visible body of the Church down here because He knows us before we are even conceived in our mother’s womb. He also knows who will make it through the fire and the flood even though He does not will, nor ever has, that we should go through torment in this earthly life, that was decided when Adam fell. Well I am no different than Adam, except that the Spirit in me will live forever by the Grace of God only. I work with a lot of people who are mentally and/or emotionally ill, schizophrenic, paranoid, and have multiple personality disorders. I think a lot about what a good and pastor friend of mine told me once. He said that the world looks on us Christians as “crazy” in the things that we will do and say when we go by faith and not sight. Well, writing all this may appear to some to be “crazy,” but I don’t care because I have had a few in my life who were not afraid to lay the foundation, go before me and set the example. And so what I am saying is that I can kind of understand the “crazy” comment when we as Christians, like old Paul the Apostle wrote about, stop to consider we do speak in terms of there being “two men.” And to dwell on the outer man, whether leading us to sin or trying to justify ourselves, is just not Spiritual in my humble belief. An ex-con once told me, "We don't all start out the race in the same place." He was talking about life in general I suppose, but we all have another race to run. I'm just glad God saves all sinners, regardless of where they start out or how many hurdles they may have to overcome. Sometimes I wish we all did come from the same good old Christian based homelife and background, but this still would not save us from sin. And I often think of the faith that the three Hebrew children had to say that even if their God did not deliver them then they still would not bow to Baal. There are times in my life when I thought, "God, why haven't you delivered me?" But you know what? There was this young maid one time that told her daddy to go ahead and sacrifice her as he had promised God. And he did it. Well now, this is where I am at this point in my walk with God. You all just keep praying for people like me, okay? As usual, I have written too much. In Love,
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Married to the Third Man?
After praying about this for some time now, this is how the Lord has given it to me. I'm not too sure right now just how He means it, whether in regards to the two faith and orders I have come to know, or just regarding the failed marriages I have come through. One thing is for sure, until the Lord gives it to me Spiritually I can never truly understand anything in this life. So since I have written so much I just thought I would post this one last experience and leave it at that. Please don't take this as directed to anyone (faith and order or person) except from me to myself. I am just sharing it with anyone who might be facing the same issue(s) because this is the manner in which I have been taught.
If a man or woman has the Spirit of God in them then they take part in the Body of Christ through His Bride and are Spiritually joined to Him as One. I am speaking of Spiritual matters here. And the never ending relationship between God and us is what a marriage between a man and a woman should represent. This is why we are so thankful for those who set a good and faithful example. The key to this is that what God joins "let not man put asunder" (Mark 10:9) whether in a Spiritually real and natural marriage between two or in the true Church of the Living God and the natural members within this Body.
What is it to be either married to a harlot or living together unmarried? I have found these to be the two ways man(kind) has tried to present himself as part of the Body of Christ without taking part in the true Marriage of the Spirit. I wonder, have we all together forgotten the meaning of the thing? Because as we know, God does not divorce or one could lose His Salvation He has given to us. In the same respect, I see why those of old have said that the original sin was taken in marrying, joining up with the wrong one to begin with for God's Spirit will not join itself to an unclean thing. Therefore if we do it in the flesh then there is going to be trouble unless God intervenes and He is not going to force Himself upon anyone for the sake of the flesh or to just get me or you out of some trouble we have gotten ourselves into with a person who doesn't love Him first. So in marrying, joining in with, or taking up with such a person is where we fall short in sin, adultery against God if we do not wait upon the Spirit or obey it in marrying, taking up with, or joining in with a person we do not take the time to know through God's revelation. God will reveal all things to those who seek His goodness. So can a person who is married be committing adultery in their heart? I believe they can if they are putting another, even a spouse before God. Can this person be committing fornication? Not if only the law of the flesh is considered (the flesh is without Salvation to altogether), but if they are so bound to the flesh of their spouse, the one they have taken up with, that they turn God away then they very well may be unsaved to begin with and in total Spiritual fornication from the start. This is just my understanding of it all taking into consideration who my First Love is and He is Jealous. This must be where some interpret fornication to mean something other than physical fornication in a spouse. I cannot tell another what to believe with this.
Considering all of this, I believe there are two types of unsaved people in the physical church buildings today. One scarcely desires the Spiritual things of God so he comes in to see if he can find them there. But he cares more about the children of the flesh to ever take part in the true Marriage so he remains bound to the woman of the flesh, unmarried and blinded to his life of fornication, teaching the children that Marriage is not important. The other says within his heart he will take what he can from the fleshly organization for recognition and earthly gain. He mocks God and never intends to take part in the true Marriage because he is spiritually joined to the harlot all along making a mockery of the true Marriage, aborting the children before they are born.
Well now, this is a lesson I learned which I suppose was meant to be shared or God wouldn't have given it to me this way. It takes me back to the last sermon I heard Pastor Simon preach. He said it seemed the Lord just wouldn't give it all to him at the time but he was preaching on the good Samaritan and how the first two passed by the one who fell among thieves. He said all he knew was the third man represented Jesus, the man who hung on the middle cross. He kept saying, preaching, that the third man represented the middle, second man. There are a lot of ways one can interpret "third man" in the Trinity, "middle man" who is our Savior and Advocate, and "second man" not of Adam. It never dawned on me until now, studying on all this about the real Church, local bodies or faith and orders, and my failed marriages that perhaps the Lord simply means the third type of man(kind) is the one that is truly saved, Married to God and not seeking the Spirit while living for the flesh nor seeking the flesh while mocking the Spirit.What do you all think about being in one mind and one accord beyond the grave? Of course I say this with a smile on my face. And I can't help but think about the third part(s) in Revelation.
If you are reading this in a carnal state of mind, you are probably thinking this woman is soliciting for a third husband like a harlot. If you are reading it in a Spiritual state, you are probably saying this woman has come home to God and wants to live a spiritual life for Him only. Well, what you see in me is what is in you according to the Scriptures! And I am so glad God sees the intent of our heart where no man can! (I believe I will retire from writing for the board now!) With Love,
After praying about this for some time now, this is how the Lord has given it to me. I'm not too sure right now just how He means it, whether in regards to the two faith and orders I have come to know, or just regarding the failed marriages I have come through. One thing is for sure, until the Lord gives it to me Spiritually I can never truly understand anything in this life. So since I have written so much I just thought I would post this one last experience and leave it at that. Please don't take this as directed to anyone (faith and order or person) except from me to myself. I am just sharing it with anyone who might be facing the same issue(s) because this is the manner in which I have been taught.
If a man or woman has the Spirit of God in them then they take part in the Body of Christ through His Bride and are Spiritually joined to Him as One. I am speaking of Spiritual matters here. And the never ending relationship between God and us is what a marriage between a man and a woman should represent. This is why we are so thankful for those who set a good and faithful example. The key to this is that what God joins "let not man put asunder" (Mark 10:9) whether in a Spiritually real and natural marriage between two or in the true Church of the Living God and the natural members within this Body.
What is it to be either married to a harlot or living together unmarried? I have found these to be the two ways man(kind) has tried to present himself as part of the Body of Christ without taking part in the true Marriage of the Spirit. I wonder, have we all together forgotten the meaning of the thing? Because as we know, God does not divorce or one could lose His Salvation He has given to us. In the same respect, I see why those of old have said that the original sin was taken in marrying, joining up with the wrong one to begin with for God's Spirit will not join itself to an unclean thing. Therefore if we do it in the flesh then there is going to be trouble unless God intervenes and He is not going to force Himself upon anyone for the sake of the flesh or to just get me or you out of some trouble we have gotten ourselves into with a person who doesn't love Him first. So in marrying, joining in with, or taking up with such a person is where we fall short in sin, adultery against God if we do not wait upon the Spirit or obey it in marrying, taking up with, or joining in with a person we do not take the time to know through God's revelation. God will reveal all things to those who seek His goodness. So can a person who is married be committing adultery in their heart? I believe they can if they are putting another, even a spouse before God. Can this person be committing fornication? Not if only the law of the flesh is considered (the flesh is without Salvation to altogether), but if they are so bound to the flesh of their spouse, the one they have taken up with, that they turn God away then they very well may be unsaved to begin with and in total Spiritual fornication from the start. This is just my understanding of it all taking into consideration who my First Love is and He is Jealous. This must be where some interpret fornication to mean something other than physical fornication in a spouse. I cannot tell another what to believe with this.
Considering all of this, I believe there are two types of unsaved people in the physical church buildings today. One scarcely desires the Spiritual things of God so he comes in to see if he can find them there. But he cares more about the children of the flesh to ever take part in the true Marriage so he remains bound to the woman of the flesh, unmarried and blinded to his life of fornication, teaching the children that Marriage is not important. The other says within his heart he will take what he can from the fleshly organization for recognition and earthly gain. He mocks God and never intends to take part in the true Marriage because he is spiritually joined to the harlot all along making a mockery of the true Marriage, aborting the children before they are born.
Well now, this is a lesson I learned which I suppose was meant to be shared or God wouldn't have given it to me this way. It takes me back to the last sermon I heard Pastor Simon preach. He said it seemed the Lord just wouldn't give it all to him at the time but he was preaching on the good Samaritan and how the first two passed by the one who fell among thieves. He said all he knew was the third man represented Jesus, the man who hung on the middle cross. He kept saying, preaching, that the third man represented the middle, second man. There are a lot of ways one can interpret "third man" in the Trinity, "middle man" who is our Savior and Advocate, and "second man" not of Adam. It never dawned on me until now, studying on all this about the real Church, local bodies or faith and orders, and my failed marriages that perhaps the Lord simply means the third type of man(kind) is the one that is truly saved, Married to God and not seeking the Spirit while living for the flesh nor seeking the flesh while mocking the Spirit.What do you all think about being in one mind and one accord beyond the grave? Of course I say this with a smile on my face. And I can't help but think about the third part(s) in Revelation.
If you are reading this in a carnal state of mind, you are probably thinking this woman is soliciting for a third husband like a harlot. If you are reading it in a Spiritual state, you are probably saying this woman has come home to God and wants to live a spiritual life for Him only. Well, what you see in me is what is in you according to the Scriptures! And I am so glad God sees the intent of our heart where no man can! (I believe I will retire from writing for the board now!) With Love,
old regular
Active Member
Sister Sarah, I would use extreme caution in trying to be reconciled to a man that you describe as abusive and cheating, also has this man remarried?There are somethings that we can forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ, like trespasses against us, but we do not now, nor have we ever the ability to forgive sin and even if we say that we forgive someone,that doesn't mean God has, and if God has granted them repentence, there should be fruits meet for repentence . A tree is known by the fruit it bears.Take Care Elder Slone
Sis. Sarah
New Member
Offenses will come
Thank you for the kind words of caution Elder Slone. But whether we love in hope that another is saved or believing they are not (family, friends or anyone), it is one thing for them to offend just me yet another when they offend Christ in me. This I know God will take care of. My most difficult job in this life is to keep myself where I need to be with the Lord, which I can't even do anyway because He keeps me! God Bless All.
Thank you for the kind words of caution Elder Slone. But whether we love in hope that another is saved or believing they are not (family, friends or anyone), it is one thing for them to offend just me yet another when they offend Christ in me. This I know God will take care of. My most difficult job in this life is to keep myself where I need to be with the Lord, which I can't even do anyway because He keeps me! God Bless All.
Bethelassoc
Member
Sarah, I can't answer for Bro Bob, but this statement has troubled me since I read it a while back. I have a hard time thinking of any church that wouldn't accept someone as a member of the body, providing that they do prove the fruits of their labor as a child of God, let alone allowing one to attend a church service. Don't you think the Old Regulars have had problems with divorce before and after conversion? We all have. God's house is clean but the physical nature is a different story. We can then start splitting hairs about what constitutes sin and what doesn't. I think this can be stretched quite far.
Think about what you said as this: If you showed up to any church, do they ask you your marital status? What sins you may have committed? No church has omnipotence, so how would they know?
David
- Status