Old School Baptist Doctrinal Debates

[Brother Bob]

I spoke to Sis Sarah by PM on this matter. I thought it was something that need to be discussed in private. We had a long talk and Sis Sarah is welcome to come to our churches and if she ever wanted membership, I am sure the churches up there where she lives would be more than willing to discuss her situation, and how she can be a member of their church.

BBob,

 

[old regular]

Sister Sarah

My understanding is that she is the innocent party, I would not have trouble with her being a member in the SGA.Those coming from the" old" United Baptist can come to our churches by relationship.This also includes the Primitive Baptist that are not progressive.This would also be true in some of our corresponding associations.I don't know what the Sardis Assn. current position is, but most of her correspondence would require re-baptism. Which if she wanted to be a member there,that would be something she would have to work out.We both would ask her to abide by the order of the church she would be joining.Most of our associations (not all) on this side use old school baptist from all the factions having the same roots,if we feel the minister lives a clean life and is in order with his home church.The New Salem correspondence will not preach with those not in their correspondence.We are required to seperate our service by prayer with those who are not considered old school baptist or those who have restrictions. Brother Bob could preach at our churches but would have to hold his own service,to keep himself out of trouble,(Example)Those on that side usually are afraid to do such as they don't want to wound their brothers feelings,but sometime will at funerals. I hope this clear enough.(P.S I not picking on Brother Bob, just using him as an example) I hope everything works out for Sister Sarah. I also have a good friend in the Union Association in Indiana, who preaches the truth,I think Sister Sarah you would enjoy hearing him. Elder Slone

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Thank you all...

I was just reading these posts and it is so nice to read what all have written. I have to say, regarding Brother David's question if it was one, that it never fails to where a person visits, myself included, that the marriage/divorce question always comes up and people have the most creative ways of asking it. So I just decided to be up front about it. Maybe I should change, I don't know. It was not anyone in the ORB that brought it up to me regarding the ORB faith and order but someone (a divorced and remarried man here in a United Baptist association that wants to preach though it is not his marriage status, to my understanding, that he can't) that told me I could not join an ORB because of my status when he found out we had withdrawn from the modern churches here. When I read the board comments I saw that this was true for some ORB. I can let others believe what they want and thank God that they have obviously not had the trials some of us have in our lives though all will have their own trials if they are of God this we know. So it only worried me that I might bring shame upon a church I love such as Mt. Zion or Blessed Hope because I would never want to add to any problems between brethren considering I know what such separation from our loved ones down here feels like. On the other hand, to be separated from God and His people is not something I am willing to let doctrines of men do to me. I don't want to be like Israel in that I prefer a king of any kind, such as Saul, over me instead of trusting in the Lord. I believe the Church of the Living God is like Ruth and there may be some that fear they could mar their inheritance if they were to associate with Her though they would redeem the field. Of course her natural husband had died before the Ruth in the Bible was married to Boaz, but I have the One who the natural Boaz only represented! I was planning on being at Mt. Zion this month, Brother Mike, if only the Lord helps me to be there. You know how my time zone issue goes. It would be an hour before we arrived last time!

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Oh! Brother Bob!

It doesn't matter to me that you believe differently than me on this issue of remarriage after a divorce. I just love your personality and admire you so much for being able to stand when you believe that God has given it to you. This is a characteristic that I cannot fault in you. I too pray to stand when He tells me to stand and to move when He tells me to move. God bless you. With Love, Sis. Sarah

 

[Bethelassoc]

Sis Sarah et al,

I hope I didn't come off sounding too critical. My concern was that a true church wouldn't condemn someone based on presupposition; as in have them fill out a questionnaire before they could enter the church, not even referring to joining yet. It was not meant to be mean spirited whatsoever.
:saint:

David

 

[Brother Bob]

Sis Sarah et al,

I hope I didn't come off sounding too critical. My concern was that a true church wouldn't condemn someone based on presupposition; as in have them fill out a questionnaire before they could enter the church, not even referring to joining yet. It was not meant to be mean spirited whatsoever.
:saint:

David

I don't think anyone found fault with what you posted Bethel. I don't know of a church where all are not welcome to come. I was ask once when I told someone where I belong, they said "oh, you belong to that church where you have to be invited". I was stunned for a moment and still wonder why someone got that impression. I guess sometimes we fail in inviting people to our churches. Almost all Old Regular, United, Primitive do have certian criteria for a new member, or at least our articles of faith say as much. We have struggled with the multible marriage as far back as I can read up until the present and continue to struggle with it.
I would give anything to look the Lord in the face and have him explain those scriptures to me. I probably have studied that subject as much if not more than any other. I still find myself wondering and pondering from time to time about it. Jesus did not put those scripture in the text for nothing and neither did Paul and others. I know how the really old churches dealt with it and I believe they were too harsh. Jesus did give us the reason of "fornication", and that was put in the text to show us there was a reason to be "free" from a marriage. The world can give a divorce every day, but I wonder if God does, for he has the final say. It seems to me, if you are not set "free" in heaven, then you are not free, for though you be joined to a harlot, ye become as one flesh. There must be something to it, for the Lord said it shall be in the last days, they shall be marrying and giving in marriage. That scripture right there has a "meaning" to it. For in the beginning it was not so.

Gives us a lot to study on doesn't it? I pray with every cell of my body, that I have it right, but to be honest, sometimes I wonder.

with love,

BBob

 

[Sis. Sarah]

I Timothy 4:3? and studying

Brother David, I don't believe I've ever read anything from you that was mean spirited, even when you have written to my edification. And Brother Bob, I know you are sincere in what you write. I can tell it when I read. Now I have a question for you that I have also wondered about and this is for everyone reading here. What do all you preachers think it means in I Timothy 4:3? I have often wondered about this because of what I wrote about. I feel what Brother Bob said too about being free in Heaven and I have also, this is my main dilema, studied and studied about how we can be of one spirit and then so divided as to not stay married or go to church together. I can understand, I believe, the part about the local church bodies being different members of the one Body of Christ, but it is so difficult and the Lord just hasn't given it to me yet. Which one of you are going to preach on this so I can come listen??? Ha! Ha! But seriously! : )

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Judges 19

Hey you all, I even posted a question on the meaning of the concubine in Judges 19 regarding this. I was wondering why the Bible refers to the Levite as her husband and her father as the Levite's father-in-law but she was a concubine. I asked if a man could be a husband to someone other than a wife? You see, I am thinking about the concubine as representing doctrine and the wife as the Gospel of Christ and the true Spiritual Church of One. I don't know. I'll just read while you preachers discuss things and learn! With Love,

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother David, I don't believe I've ever read anything from you that was mean spirited, even when you have written to my edification. And Brother Bob, I know you are sincere in what you write. I can tell it when I read. Now I have a question for you that I have also wondered about and this is for everyone reading here. What do all you preachers think it means in I Timothy 4:3? I have often wondered about this because of what I wrote about. I feel what Brother Bob said too about being free in Heaven and I have also, this is my main dilema, studied and studied about how we can be of one spirit and then so divided as to not stay married or go to church together. I can understand, I believe, the part about the local church bodies being different members of the one Body of Christ, but it is so difficult and the Lord just hasn't given it to me yet. Which one of you are going to preach on this so I can come listen??? Ha! Ha! But seriously! : )
__________________
Sis. Sarah

I am sure Bro Mike is more than able where you going to visit, if the Lord puts it on his mind.

As far as 1Tim 4:3, I don't know who a person who had no conscious, for it was seared with a hot iron, I have no idea who that type of person would forbid to marry. Maybe someone else has some thought about it, but those type of people, are the ones, who turn to doing unspeakable things and men with men and women with women.
Probably forbidding them to marry in the traditional was but to go after their own kind. We must keep in mind who is doing this "forbidding" and its those with their conscious seared with a hot iron.

 

[charles_creech78]

Brother David, I don't believe I've ever read anything from you that was mean spirited, even when you have written to my edification. And Brother Bob, I know you are sincere in what you write. I can tell it when I read. Now I have a question for you that I have also wondered about and this is for everyone reading here. What do all you preachers think it means in I Timothy 4:3? I have often wondered about this because of what I wrote about. I feel what Brother Bob said too about being free in Heaven and I have also, this is my main dilema, studied and studied about how we can be of one spirit and then so divided as to not stay married or go to church together. I can understand, I believe, the part about the local church bodies being different members of the one Body of Christ, but it is so difficult and the Lord just hasn't given it to me yet. Which one of you are going to preach on this so I can come listen??? Ha! Ha! But seriously! : )

Mr 9:38 And John answer him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in THY NAME, and he followeth NOT US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. Mr 9:39 But Jesus said, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mr 9:40 For HE that is not against US is on our part. Mt 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, BELIEVE not every SPIRITS whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the SPIRIT of God: Every SPIRIT that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. I can help you a little on the marrage part. I have been married 7 years. Some times it is hard and sometimes it is Good. When I got married I had a preacher look at me and ask me if we had the lord . I said no. He said please the both of you seek him togather. I talk to her about the lord and prey for her every day. I know I cannot save her. But I trust in the lord that he will lead her closer to him. I could not even thank about puting her away. I love her very much. We talk about the lord alot. I am not a born again Christain but I am seeking God and repenting. I went to a united Baptist church when I was little . My grandpa was a preacher. I seen a church that said they had Christ fall apart. They closed the door on it. This scripture come to my mind about a year ago when I thought of that church. Mr 3:26 And if satin rise up against himself, and be DIVIDED, he cannot stand, but hath an end. I seen them fight and hate each other. I told myself that I will never go to a church like that agin. I started to prey to God for a answer and to find me a place to go. The lord lead me to the house of my masters brother. I started to go to the old regular baptist. They showed me nothing but love . Someone that loves you will give you a hug and a kiss. I just felt like God lead me to this place. The first time I seen a man get down on his knees to prey to God and get up prasing and crieing happy tears. And saying Jesus love you. I want to feel that. I want to praise his man like that give him all the glory do to his name . Lord help me talk to her. It is not rules It is how we love him and love each other. I seen love out of this church. I want Jesus just give me Jesus.Let me serve him all the day of my life. Let us praise his name. Sister let the lord lead you. Prey to him about this he will give you what you need . Prey for me to please. Give me Jesus just give me Jesus. I ask him what I need every night. Give me Jesus just give me Jesus. Praise his name thank you lord God for all that you given me. Thank you God for letting my eyes read this page. Please Lord help her in this give her a answer not because I prey for it but because you are a loving God and you are our understanding. I am nothing lord with out you and I thank you and prey amen.

 

[charles_creech78]

I know when I got married and started to look for God and understanding about marriage. I was scared if it was wrong of what preacher married us. I know you cannot look on a man to see if he is saved. I believe that he was ok but I wanted to make sure. I prayed to God about it. It was not right after I got married when I started to seek God. I prayed and prayed about it. I read the bible and some scripture on it. I still did not understand about the preacher part. I pray about it and I beleive God gave me a answer that night I prayed. It was'nt that it was a preacher there and witnesses. It was because God was there and he was the one who married us and that we said we would take care of each other for better or worse for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, until DEATH DO WE PART and that we said this to God. In all these thing that will happen I will always love my wife. I know that God gave her to me to help me, and to help her to love each other to become One Flesh. I thank that is the reason some people cannot stay together because they don't see that they said them things before God. I thank another thing we need to thank about of the churches being so divided is that we are not doing these things just in the sight of man but we are doing theses things in the sight of God. And he is the one we need to go to for all understanding. For we pray not my will lord but your will be done. If he had wanted us any other way in the churches it would be so. For lord what ever they will is let it be done.

 

[Brother Bob]

Right, the vows were made to each other before God.

 

[Sis. Sarah]

I'll be praying...

Dear Charles, I had to reply when I read what you wrote. Let me tell you what happened to me as a child, I mean when I was first saved. The church where I heard the Gospel was in an uproar though I was a sinner and had not been there but a few times. Thank God it was during a revival meeting or at least there was a visiting preacher. I didn't know the particulars. Anyway, before I could even get baptized the church split. This was at a United Baptist place. Then, when I got baptized I visited the other faction that had left, it was the smaller of the two sides, and decided to go there. I didn't understand about the big brawl. So when I asked to go there after visiting the larger faction that had baptized me EXCOMMUNICATED me for going to the other side! My parents then got saved in this small church but within a year it split again! We wondered around for years, still just babes in Christ and on the milk yet. The smaller of these factions finally dwendled away and the other is left with about 10 people, almost all of which are of a different family that originally started out with the split. In fact, none but the original pastor's wife is still going there after he died. The doctrine there has changed though to something totally different from what we believe in. As for the other side of the big split, the larger side, it has now turned into some kind of business in my opinion, in partnership with department stores, selling all kinds of goods and services, etc. It is enough to make me ask how I could have ever taken part in their being, any of them. And this is exactly how I feel about the ex-husband. You (I mean myself here) can truly think you are in one mind and one accord, until God shows you otherwise, but it still hurts you so bad when you believe in your heart that you did not lie to God when you took the vow to join the church body or to join with your spouse as one. I just believe this is what the Bible is talking about when it says that in the end the love of many shall wax cold. I pray God the people I once went to church with are really saved just as I pray God my ex-husband is but I know that Judas also stayed among the twelve right up until he betrayed Christ. Of course Christ knew he was a devil, but the others did not until he betrayed Christ as I understand the Bible to say. If I am wrong in the others knowing beforehand someone please let me know for this might be just what I need to find out. Well, I just couldn't resist writing to you Charles. And I pray God your wife finds the Lord. May God bless you good my friend.

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old School Doctrinal Debate

As for divorce/remarriage, I can tell you something about myself. My wife Tracy is my first wife, and I am her first husband. I thank God for her and pray for her. Even though there are times we would like to "strangle" each other, our love and respect for each other is always there. We don't agree all the time, we have bickered from time-to-time, but I will always love her. That being said, before I started dating her, I went out with, even dated women, who had been divorced, some had been divorced twice. Everytime I dated one, something would happen, and the bottom would fall out of the relationship. It got to the point when I would ask about a girl, if I found out she had been divorced, I would not pursue her to ask her for a date. Not that I had anything against her, but I had a "feeling" it wouldn't work. I believe that God saves us from ALL of our sins, not just some. Some people believe that God will save someone who has been divorced/remarried, but they have to make themselves eunuchs!! Some of the ones I know who "believed" this, they ended up doing this very thing. In the Sardis Association, there was a preacher who preached this very doctrine. When his wife left him and they divorced, guess what? He remarried!! And the woman, who is a very fine woman, was divorced, too. Talk about not practicing what you preach.The woman had every right to divorce her husband, but she was a sinner when the preacher married her. I also know a man who for years told me that a man would have to make himself a eunuch, if they remarried. Guess what? He ended up marrying a woman who had been married two, maybe three times already! He was in his mid-40's when he married her, his first marriage. A lot of people, when the road is smooth, can do and preach this. But, when their road becomes bumpy, they show their true colors.

Now, in regards to forgiveness of sins of someone who was divorced/remarried before they were saved. ALL of our sins were cast away from us "As far as the east is from the west", when the Holy Ghost took up His abode in our body. We are either totally forgiven or totally in bondage. There is no forgiveness with restrictions. I know that their are some who don't want anyone who has been divorced/remarried, if they were the "guilty" party(the one who caused the divorce via adultry), in their church. I know of this being even in the church of Christ. We all were "guilty" when we were sinners. Now we are SANCTIFIED, JUSTIFIED, PURIFIED, by the redeeming Blood of Jesus Christ!! Glory, Glory, Glory!! So, we have ALL sinned and came short of the gory of God. There are none righteous, no not one. We are sinners saved by GRACE! When we try to hold one sin above all others, that one sin is Blasphemy(sp?) of the Holy Ghost! That is the only sin that can't be forgiven. Sister Sarah, I pray that you find a church that God leads you to. If you were closer here, you would be welcomed with "OPEN ARMS" at Salem. I hope all is well with all who read this. May God bless us, everyone!!

Willis Fletcher, Jr.

PS I don't believe in divorce, but things happen that this is the only course of action. If we have to twist someone's arm and put it behind their back, or put a gun to their head to keep them, that is considered kidnapping. So, we can't make someone stay with us, if they choose to leave.

 

[Brother Bob]

What happened to that preacher Convicted1? Is he still around?

Every hear of Brother Ben Scott, his wife left him with all the kids when he was young, he raised them sent them to school and still preaching as a single man, he is close to 90 now, lived alone all his life since.

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old School Baptist Doctrinal Debate

The preacher who did this is back in Sardis now, so I want to keep him anomymous(sp?), Brother Bob. He doesn't preach, as far as I know. I thought of Ben Scott while I was typing that last post. He is one who has practiced what he preached, and I respect him for it. I know my opinion may differ a lot from others on here, but seeing that Brother Ben's wife left him, there was nothing he could do but divorce, I guess. I believe he could haved remarried and still preached, in my opinion. But as I already said, that's my opinion, and if I am wrong, then I am wrong. The Word of God is TRUE!! Let God be true, and every man a liar. If she left Brother Ben, I believe he was "blameless" in that divorce. My aunt one time mentioned to Brother Ben that she guessed he didn't want a woman. She said that Brother Ben said if he said he didn't, he would have told a lie, but he felt he shouldn't remarry. If that's the way he feels, then I don't blame him. He has to live his life for the Lord, and he has to do what he thinks is best for him. I hope you don't feel hard at me Brother Bob, but I don't think it would be right for me to name the guy's name, because if he was to ever take the stand again, I don't think he should, it would be hard for me to listen to him. But, that is between him and God. I just wouldn't have too much confidence in him. But that is just me. While I am typing this, I am thinking about David and how he asked the Lord to not take away that "Sweet Spirit" from him. He was restored to God. I know that this was in the Old Testament, but God never changes. In other words, I just don't know how to answer things with God in regards to how He deals with each and every circumstance regarding the divorce/remarriage issue. I have to let Him handle it the way He sees fit. We, as the Church, have to handle these incidents with "kid's gloves" and pray to God that we make the right choice. Sometimes exclusion is the only option, sometimes not. But I trust that the Lord knows how to handle these things, not me. Everytime man tries to do things his way, and not God's, we make a mess of things. Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden because they went against the very thing He told them not to do. I just don't know what else to say. If they do something wrong, they have to pray to God for His forgiveness, we can't do that for them. All I can worry about is me. That is ALL I can handle. Believe you me, that's a lot to handle!! May god bless us all!!

 

[Brother Bob]

May God continue to bless you convicted1. There will be no double married preachers in Sardis as long as I live, I don't think. I don't know what they will do after I die. Of course I could be overrode, but then I wouldn't be around anymore either.

Blessings,

BBob

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old School Baptist Doctrinal Debate

Brother Bob, I believe you are right. Like I said earlier, I may be wrong. If I am wrong, then I pray that God forgives me. This is such a "sticky" topic in the ORBs, that there is no way anyone can satisify both sides of the argument. If you lean one way, you will offend some. If you lean the other way, you offend the rest. The only thing I know is that whenever I dated a girl who was divorced, it would never work out. The woman I married was never married before. Was God trying to tell me something? Maybe He was. Either way, I know that God is the author and finisher of our faith. I know nothing, but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I just want as many as possible to go to heaven with us, Brother Bob. I am sure you feel the same. May god bless!!

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Weather in Kentucky tonight

I hope everyone who is in Kentucky is safe tonight. A tornado hit my sister's house. Thank God no one was hurt but it did a lot of damage. Take care,

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, we are in the eastern part, where the mountains are and we don't get many tornados. We all safe where I am. Thanks for asking. I hope it didn't do too much damage to your sister's house and that she is alright.