Old School Baptist Doctrinal Debates

[Sis. Sarah]

Weather in Kentucky

She is alright Bro Bob. It did take a good part of the side of her house off though and broke several windows with flying debris. She and her family are okay. I am glad you all didn't have any bad weather there.

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

What is the eternal outcome?

Brothers Ive been reading your post to one another about double married and was wondering how this problem has esscalated into the big debate among so many of the old school baptist, I relize that it is an issue to so many churches of the baptist. What I would question is that the problem that is effecting the churches is time based and knowing that God is eteranl he has chosen things in himself that pleased him before the world was and chose individuals to be conformed unto his sons likeness that they would be partakers of him in that final day of his glory, Yes I do understand that us being here in time that we have to judge them that are within the body of the church and keep up the faith that Christ has set up here in his kingdom. But if a man is to be turn back unto repentance because of the sin or sins that he or she has commited unto God and God has renewed his spirit in them like he did in David and that child of God has been uplifted of the spirit and been forgiven of his transgression against God ,does this mean that we should hold his sins against him what he has done in the past? for we know that we are not to ecceed past what God has cleaned up and call it dirty again ,so I would say being of the littlest of Gods children and of having many of my own trangression unto God that when forgiveness is reinstated unto them they have joy of God once again and I would think that They would stay away from such problems in the furture, I relize that they cant change the past and the bible tells us forgive over and over again. It is not my intension to be confussing to anyone but if the person or persons that are in such like manner and are still in thier second marriage and wish fellowship with the brothern, then who are we to deny part of Gods body not to partake of the church that he created for his own pleasures for it pleased God to forgive and to renew at his will, so are we above Gods will that we should not except the workings of Gods hands. what im intending to imply is that God has the final say on ALL THINGS concerning his house and that we should let God decide these things that are so contrary to us.for the double married is no surprise to God and he does know what to do according to his will ,if the church is or was to deny fellowship with such an individaul would not that be dening God the father and his workmanship? if not please enlighten me for i must not have the understanding needed to except such an individual. In my last remarks i would say that if the church the working body knew all that I have done in the past would they hold that against me Lord ,God I hope not or else I would be outside looking in and urning for that Godly fellowship. may the peace of our Lord be with you all.amen

 

[Brother Bob]

Bro. Dewey;
If someone did put their companion away for a cause that was not fornication, and marry another, Jesus said this person would be in adultery and cause that one they marry to be in adultery.
Other sins like stealing. We do have to stop stealing before the Lord will save us and I am sure you would agree with that.
If someone was living in adultery how would getting saved stop the adultery if they continued living in adultery? So, you are going to say "all" sins are forgiven, except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, of which I believe too, if they quit the sin. Jesus said go and sin no more, and if that first marriage was accepted in Heaven, then it would have to be set free with in Heaven, and Jesus said the only reason he would do that is for the cause of fornication, so if the second marriage was for any other reason than fornication, seems to me they are still married to the first, no matter how many divorces they get here on earth.

Oh, it is the hardest subject the church has had to deal with since I been in the last 35 years. If you have an answer for me that will set my mind free, I would forever be indebted to you, for I would be glad to say, we will not consider anything you started doing before salvation, even though you are still doing it.

I could be all wet behind the ears, but that is what scripture says and I have searched the scripture for years and years, trying to find a way around the words that Jesus spoke. Many, will not take them at all. But I have and will always take those who put away their companion for fornication. I wish I could say, "come on in" it does not matter what you did in the past, even though they still are doing it and never have it keep creeping up in my mind and heart for the rest of my life, and have to wait and ask Jesus, did I do right, going against what He said about putting away the first. God Bless,

BBob,

 

[old regular]

doubled married

There are those who have two living companions,and the first was put away for fornication,the churches in large receive these members as does Mt.Zion,but there are cases that would be destructive to the church.Say now that both of those above have children,and the guilty party has remarried,and has a child now he wants membership at the same church,this I know for fact existed in the association we came out of, what confusion it brought,it would be better to let one perish than a whole body,how does one get out of sin? Let the wicked forsake his way, God quickens us in our sins and saves us from our sins, ELder Slone

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

Double Married

Brother Bob. first of all your saved from sin not out of sin, i dont see
how a person stops sinning just because they have been saved.
for christ came to save sinners unto his kingdom, although they
may have obtained the grace of God and received the holy spirit
it doesnt free them from the flesh and the lust there of.
In regards to the double married i realize that a person that
commits an act of adultery in Gods eyes has been set forth to be
marked as in when Cain was marked because of the sin that he
commited ,it is a hard situation for the churches to accept a person
that has been marked. So if a person comes to the church and asked
to be a member and you have no idea of his past and accept him
in fellowship and down the road after the church has baptised him
in having fellowship with him,say for four years then you find out that
he was double married and while he was in the church you felt the
spirit flow breast to breast witnessing that you were the children of God
would it be wrong to exclude him even though there was a spiritual
connection, i realize the scriptures tells us to cut off that hand if it
offends us for it is better to cast out one part than the whole body
to be cast out. So does this mean that every time a person that feels
like God has forgiven them that the churches should question their
past before accepting the right hand of fellowship. I am not what they
would call a scriptorion of the scriptures but i do believe that what God has sealed with a holy seal of promise that no man should put asunder ,it seems to me that if God has elected a person of such nature and imputed his seal of promise in thier souls and becomes part of the body of Christ. How is this? even though the scripture doesnt condone
double married , I can understand that to be a bishop you must be a
husband of one wife but to be a member of the church does this mean that being doubled married they should be cast out and not have the joy of their salvation and fellowship with their brothers, if this is the case, would not this mean to the spiritral person that God would want us to withold them of this pleasure of their joy, for we all seek blessings as much as God giveth, how is it that being the judge of them that are double married we find that if God has forgiven them they should refrain from this ongoing sin.
[Being doubled married not for the sake of fornication but because of the lust of the flesh,] is this a loophole that satan uses to cause strife and discord? because according to the scripture and what i have heard from the brothern that it is impossible for a church to accept a person that is in a double marriage save for fornication . peace and grace of our lord Jesus be with you amen So what im saying is that if thiere in the double marrige they should remove the reproach from themselves before commiting to a church.

 

[Brother Bob]

because according to the scripture and what i have heard from the brothern that it is impossible for a church to accept a person that is in a double marriage save for fornication peace and grace of our lord Jesus be with you amen

I would think you answered your own question.
I really didn't understand the first part of your post when you said the Lord saves us from; Well here is what you posted:
Brother Bob first of all your saved from sin not out of sin i dont see
how a person stops sinning just because they have been saved.

Does this mean you believe Christians commit adultery, steal, kill, lie etc. What does this mean?

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery "to go and sin no more". I do not believe we are sinless, but I do believe we don't commit the kind of sins as adultery.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Cr 6:10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God Bless,

BBob

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old school

Well to answer your other question I would have to go forward to First corinthians chapter five.It is reported commonly that there is fornication amoung you as is not so much as named among the gentiles, that one should have his fathers wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned,that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from amoung you. For I verily as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judge already ,as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,when you are gathered together, and my spirit,with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh,that the spirit may be saved inthe day of the Lord Jesus. also verse 18: flee fornication, every sin that a man doeth is without the body ;but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. there is also other scripture that tell us to stay away from forication and other sin that would take the joy of our salvation from amoung us. So to answer your question yes I do believe that a child of God under the grace covnent can commit such acts as you impied, only because they lived after the flesh and not the spirit which is what directs us unto our Lord and Savior. Amen.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, you are entitled to your belief, we don't believe or practice that way.

1Corth 6:
9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb. 10:
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1Cr 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Peace,

BBob

 

[charles_creech78]

1 pe 4:1 For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that SUFFERED in the flesh hath CEASED FROM SIN. 1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should LIVE the rest of his time in the FLESH TO LUST OF MEN, but to the will of God. If we live to do the will of God . Then we don't live unto sin because that we live to do Gods will. and he is are life that we live that is in us.

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Differences in beliefs

Brother Dewey, I think a lot of contention arises on this subject in the churches because a lot of people, even those who take part sometimes, assume that a ceremony in the law is what makes a marriage to begin with while a few do focus on the fact that there has to be the Love of God in it for God to truly join two people just like He does with brothers and sisters in Christ in the true Church. I think division comes in where people start to define what a marriage is which really has nothing to do with divorce because what God joins, whether a marriage or a church, is not going to be put asunder by man. There are a lot of people who have joined a local church body but do not know the Love of God in their soul and so they can live a good moral life and then say, "Lord, Lord..." and Jesus will say, "Depart from me...for I never knew you" one day. If this can happen in the church body what is it then for a man or woman to say, "I do" when they really don't to another? These people (the ones joining church bodies) are blinded and only God can open their eyes. Yes, the law of marriage is good in God's eyes even for sinners because His Law is perfect and Spiritual. The problem is that we cannot live by the Law so as good as we might think we are we can never be saved by the Law, which includes marriage law in it. If a person is lost, then they are lost whether they join a physical body or not. If a person says, "I do" when truly they don't, then they are not married in the Lord to begin with in my opinion. They have already sinned against God in making a false vow whether they live until death with the other person or not because they have and continue to lie to God and commit adultery in their heart as Jesus explained because they don't really love their spouse. The world will look on such a couple, marriage and praise it by the law, like the pharisees who lived by the flesh, but God sees the sins of the heart. You can be true to God or "true" to the flesh but either way, the flesh can neither save you nor condemn you. It is whether or not you have been born again that will send a person to Hell. And the Law has no effect on an unbeliever because there are only two when we are saved. One (the flesh) sins and One (the Spirit) does not. If there is no warfare then we better check what we have. The flesh, which is condemned already, will never inherit Heaven and this is what the scriptures mean, I believe. These are just my thoughts and I hope I said them in such a way as to not sound confusing. I just believe that whether it be just two people, or a house full, God joins us in His Spirit by His Love and the flesh has nothing to do with it. All the flesh can do is try and put asunder what God joins, but with no effect you see. Just like when Jesus came to us as a man through the virgin birth, it is still the same today, for none are born of God where man has had his part in the matter. Therefore man(kind) can claim all he wants through ceremonies and rituals and law, saying, "I do," or "I don't," but it is still true that if God is not in it, then it is not alive; and if He is in it, then nothing can separate us from the Love of God. With Love,

 

[Brother Bob]

Sis Sarah;
I like your words and if they are true they would help answer a lot of questions concerning double marriage.What about 5 marriages?
If not for the following scripture, I could agree with you.

1Cr 6:16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

God bless, we must keep trying as long as we have breath to understand all of God's word.

BBob,

 

[Sis. Sarah]

5 marriages

Hi Brother Bob! It makes no differences, 5 marriages or one. A person could join 5 different local bodies, denomination, or maybe have 5 jobs within a local body, but if they are not saved none of this is ever going to save them. As for joining one's self to a harlot, this is natural and Spiritual in meaning. The flesh is a harlot regardless Spiritually speaking. God looks on the heart. The Devil tries to tell people that if they don't keep themselves or live by the flesh then they are not worthy of Jesus. This is why Jesus loved us enough to come and die for us. He who suffered in the flesh; so now when we get saved the Spirit within us suffers because of this flesh, longing to go home but not to make the flesh perfect because the Spirit does not long to live in this body regardless. A clean life, one's life circumstances is one thing, but Life itself comes from God by grace through faith. I believe when a church sells things for money it has joined itself to the world, which is The Harlot, and when it takes a tax number from the government, and a whold lot more things like this because God's Spirit is reserved only for His Bride, not The Harlot (this world). I better get to work! Have a great day!

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old school

Well im off work now and see you have been talking behind my back,ha! ha! While I was at work last night my heart began to wonder about the forgiveness of our Lord ,God and that he had chosen this in himself, to forgive people of all sorts in his creation; to conform them unto his pleasure, not that they had any thing to offer, But because it pleases him that sits on the thrown above to do his will unto us that we may feel his love and kindness, so lets say for instance that a person was double married and he was one of Gods elect and God knowing when he was going to call this individual out of the world unto repentance to be conformed , it only makes me believe that God would prepare this individual with a clean apperance, so that he could become apart of the working body;so if one comes knocking at the door of the church and does`nt have the apperance to go with the true salvation of our Lord, then this is the one that needs to approach our Lord savior for the cleaning of his house, for I dont think that God is going to save someone and still let them have such a bad approach on themselfs. For when God cleans something or someone especially a new babe in Christ its Holy and without spot , now as time goes on and the person becomes defient to the spirit and forgets that he was purged of his sins ;then he has by himself fallen into temptation and brought the approach on himself. ps you know sister Sarah i do believe that the world could be a harlot. its funny how you impied your massege ,Ha Ha may the grace of the Lord be unto you,

 

[Brother Bob]

Hi Brother Bob! It makes no differences, 5 marriages or one. A person could join 5 different local bodies, denomination, or maybe have 5 jobs within a local body, but if they are not saved none of this is ever going to save them. As for joining one's self to a harlot, this is natural and Spiritual in meaning. The flesh is a harlot regardless Spiritually speaking. God looks on the heart. The Devil tries to tell people that if they don't keep themselves or live by the flesh then they are not worthy of Jesus. This is why Jesus loved us enough to come and die for us. He who suffered in the flesh; so now when we get saved the Spirit within us suffers because of this flesh, longing to go home but not to make the flesh perfect because the Spirit does not long to live in this body regardless. A clean life, one's life circumstances is one thing, but Life itself comes from God by grace through faith. I believe when a church sells things for money it has joined itself to the world, which is The Harlot, and when it takes a tax number from the government, and a whold lot more things like this because God's Spirit is reserved only for His Bride, not The Harlot (this world). I better get to work! Have a great day!
__________________
Sis. Sarah

If we are going to talk about double marriage, then we need to stick with the natural being.
My point of the Harlot is that if you choose a harlot, then you become as one, the same as two who have kept themselves clean, for each other.
If you have studied Rev at all, you would have to know the world is a harlot. So did Israel play the harlot also.
BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

Well im off work now and see you have been talking behind my back,ha! ha! While I was at work last night my heart began to wonder about the forgiveness of our Lord ,God and that he had chosen this in himself, to forgive people of all sorts in his creation; to conform them unto his pleasure, not that they had any thing to offer, But because it pleases him that sits on the thrown above to do his will unto us that we may feel his love and kindness, so lets say for instance that a person was double married and he was one of Gods elect and God knowing when he was going to call this individual out of the world unto repentance to be conformed , it only makes me believe that God would prepare this individual with a clean apperance, so that he could become apart of the working body;so if one comes knocking at the door of the church and does`nt have the apperance to go with the true salvation of our Lord, then this is the one that needs to approach our Lord savior for the cleaning of his house, for I dont think that God is going to save someone and still let them have such a bad approach on themselfs. For when God cleans something or someone especially a new babe in Christ its Holy and without spot , now as time goes on and the person becomes defient to the spirit and forgets that he was purged of his sins ;then he has by himself fallen into temptation and brought the approach on himself.

So, it seems you believe that its the same old story over again of Israel going astray. You must not believe we are kept by the power of God, or that He will keep us body, spirit and soul to present unto the Father blameless.

BBob

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

i dont know what you are impling,but God does keep his sons in his hand the no man can pluck out, maybe you are not understanding what im saying , which is that God cleans us unto him but afterwards we through sin or sins we commit things to our body and not the spirit for the inward man can never sin against God after being redeemed by and through the Blood of Christ,but the outward man because of sin and falling into the traps of the world which is the devil causes the garment to be spotted. may the grace of our Lord be whit you .amen

 

[Brother Bob]

So, what about this?

1Corth 6:
9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

well if I have read the scriptures right my brother Paul was writing to a church in corinthians and directly called them a church of God that are sanctified in Christ Jesus call to be saints. Who thanked God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ. Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ our lord then he beseeches the brothern. Now that is in the very first chapter between verses one and ten so we now know that he is talking to the children of God. As you read on in the book and going to chapter five it is commonly reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the gentiles, that one should have his brothers wife. In 5:5 to deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our lord Jesus Christ. 5:9 i wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators; 5:10 yet not all together with fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters, for then must ye needs go out of the world but now i have written unto you not to keep company, if any man is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat. So I plainly see that this church of Grace has commited some very awful sins. for we see that the outward man in this church commit things of departure from the spirit but to be confirmed in the day of our Lord . may the peace of the Lord be with you.amen.

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Natural being and marriage

Okay, Brother Bob, I thought we were speaking of Spiritual things for isn't that what enternal life and salvation is about? Of course we battle the flesh because we have the Spirit within us and it is the Holy Ghost that keeps us from turning back when we do sin. I didn't realize you believed this body is sanctified and going to Heaven. Now I understand our different views. Do you then preach millennium reign and/or a heaven on this earth? I am Jewish you know, which this sounds like my natural Jewish brothers and sisters writing. It is because I am saved by Grace though that I truly can understand what being Jewish means both naturally and Spiritually, to live by the faith of my fathers. I have studied Revelations in depth. I am assuming you have too, but the great whore is found at the beginning of the Torah. Shalom!

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Israel playing the harlot...

Before discussing Israel playing the harlot, I think we should remember that the Grace Plan did come by way of the Jew first and then to the Gentile. I love my Gentile brothers and sisters in Christ but this is only brought to my mind when one of them brings such things up for I don't make a difference between us naturally speaking (of course Spiritually speaking is another thing). So as for all of Israel's sins, I would only say that it was Israel who first believed on Christ and was used by Him to bring the gospel unto the Gentile world, the natural harlot. Only Jesus could die as a man in the flesh to cleans, sanctify and save His Bride from the Law that had her condemned. So as good as a natural husband can be he cannot save his natural wife (nor vice versa). It is good to follow God's law, but only Jesus could do it and there is no measure to His Salvation nor is there any big sin or little sin. A person, like Israel of old, either believes God or s/he doesn't. We have no power to weigh a man's soul. The True Balance hung on the cross. Okay, I have to get to my other job now! Have a good discussion tonight you all.