Old Testament, New Testament

[Michael Wrenn]

Maybe I can put things in a little perspective, having been here a while, and having spent my sixty years split between 25 Presbyterian and 35 Baptist. The first thing to realize is that some posters burst onto the scene, in very dogmatic, obnoxious posts. The same tired, old pattern is that they call me a heretic, you a heretic, someone else does not have faith, etc, etc. They do not last long. There is one on this thread, which I am not going to name.

Aside from that, there are people who have been here a long time who are a one issue person, and extreme at that. You will notice them linger in the areas of KJVO, Calvinism, Arminianism, Landmarkism, Baptist Bride, no missions, closed communion, etc. I am not saying I agree or disagree with any of these, I am saying these evoke the most hatred, and to a lesser degree, Creationism, and end times doctrine.

Now, as to this thread, one of the basics of Baptist doctrine, and Presbyterian for that matter, it the harmony of the Old and New Testement. I gave some examples above, but everything the Lord did in the OT, I might not like from a human perspective, but He is God, and I have to believe it was the exact thing that needed doing. Every act in the OT brings about the perfect conditions for the coming of Jesus Christ, and the NT is the fulfillment of that. I think the premise of the article that said "one must assume the Bible is literally inspired" well, I believe it is. There are some parables and allegories, song, prophecy, history, proverbs, etc. but the Bible is 100 percent true whether I like the account or not.

I stay away from the radicals you talk about, because their doctrine is either plain wrong or makes a major point out of a minor point. For example, not one person more or less is going to be saved because the Rapture does or does not happen, or if I went to an open or closed communion.

It is a matter of having an internal filter. The Holy Spirit is a great filter. Also, one thing to remember is that this is just words typed by people you do not know. It is not a local church.

Thank you for that wonderful, intelligent, well-reasoned, informative, and Christlike post! This post is like an oasis in the desert. Your response is the kind I hoped I would get, but I knew also what else was coming -- I just didn't expect it to be so virulent and unfair, but I should have known, and I would have known if I could have foreseen exactly who would reply.

Anyway, thank you so much for your post; it gives me hope. I may not agree with all the author said, or with all you said, but I see much common ground, and I am thankful that at least one person responded in the manner you did -- you.

 

[Salty]

Because of the opprobrious epithet "liberal," today they call themselves “moderates.” A skunk by any other name still stinks! ~W.A. Criswell

If you, or Criswell, can't see the difference between the positions of those in the CBF and the Alliance of Baptists, you are either dishonest or ignorant.

Lets see, one man murders one person; a second man murders 10 people - is one of them more evil than than the other? or or they both murderers?

We do seem to like the phrase - "the lesser of two evils"

 

[Grasshopper]

Of course, fundamentalists will cry “liberal!” against anyone who dares to question whether God literally commanded Israel to slaughter babies or slaughtered them himself (as in the killing of Egypt’s firstborn sons during the Exodus).


Wow.

Throughout the article I kept asking the same question, "who are these fundamentalists he keeps talking about?" I think he has created some straw man caricature of all those who disagree with his anti-Calvinism. Who believes the things he his accusing Some of believing? Killing people, observing the OT Law etc....

I knew the name was familiar:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4819

 

[plain_n_simple]

"Old Testament, New Testament
Here is a good article by an "Arminian" Baptist about how God is presented in the Old Testament and how he is presented in the New Testament:"

Some have taken the Old Testament and tried to combine it with the New Testament,to cure some seemingly contradictive teachings. This usually results in confusion. The New Covenant speaks clearly who and what to listen to. It is illistrated from God Himself on the Mount of Transfiguration, reported in scripture not once, but 3 times.

Matthew 17:3-5
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Again it is repeated in Mark 9:5-8, and in Luke 9:33-35.

Even more scripture reveals who to listen to:

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Hebrews 1:1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

 

[Don]

Don't really know much about Olson ... but why does he strike me as more of a pelagian rather than an arminian?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Of course, fundamentalists will cry “liberal!” against anyone who dares to question whether God literally commanded Israel to slaughter babies or slaughtered them himself (as in the killing of Egypt’s firstborn sons during the Exodus).


Wow.

Throughout the article I kept asking the same question, "who are these fundamentalists he keeps talking about?" I think he has created some straw man caricature of all those who disagree with his anti-Calvinism. Who believes the things he his accusing Some of believing? Killing people, observing the OT Law etc....

I knew the name was familiar:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4819

There were plenty of Catholics and Magisterial Reformers and their followers who killed people in the name of Jesus.

From some people's posts to me here, they would delight in putting the torch to me, or see me burning in an eternal hell.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hmm... that's how I would describe you, plus a few other descriptions -- Pharisaical accuser of the brethren is one which comes to mind.

This man is a member of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a group of moderate and moderate/conservative Southern Baptists. For accuracy, the liberal group would be the Alliance of Baptists.

I expected you to twist and mischaracterize this, as you do most everything that doesn't fit into your fanatical, radical fundamentalism.

This man is trying to say that the Old Testament should be interpreted through the lens of the life and teachings of Jesus, as I have stated here myself. People like you and like the first century Judaizers who criticized and ultimately were responsible for Jesus' death, do the opposite -- promote an Old Testament Christianity.


Michael wrenn
So, you think you have a corner on "truth" and what is "Christian". I'm glad God is in charge and not you.

God is in charge and has spoken in all 66 books of God breathed scripture.You will never come to truth as long as you read and agree with people who deny the scripture as 100%. You also do not believe the scripture as you have posted.
You think that by inventing your own church[cult]...of cut and paste scripture...remove some keep some ...that somehow these errors can be validated....they cannot .. but that is up to you.just be honest about what is taking place.
To you...believers like myself, mandy, and any others who believe in a full bible/...we have to be ...."pharisaical judizers," and what ever else you want.
I am glad you view me as an enemy. Your blood is off my head.
You have the right to post,and believe what you want.....I and others have the right to call it for what it is. I am sure you will find that most in here see it as clear error.
Your author has a clear agenda...as you do. It is hard to tell who infected who with this error.....but I know it needs to be identified and quarentined so it does not spread like the cancer it is....

This man is not my brother as he denies the scriptures my Lord gave....
the Ot God ...is the Nt God......this is an open attack on truth.

I will give you credit for posting what you believe in a public forum.
maybe this thread can also be seen as a prayer request for those who are in danger from departing from truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course, fundamentalists will cry “liberal!” against anyone who dares to question whether God literally commanded Israel to slaughter babies or slaughtered them himself (as in the killing of Egypt’s firstborn sons during the Exodus).


Wow.

Throughout the article I kept asking the same question, "who are these fundamentalists he keeps talking about?" I think he has created some straw man caricature of all those who disagree with his anti-Calvinism. Who believes the things he his accusing Some of believing? Killing people, observing the OT Law etc....

I knew the name was familiar:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4819

Good link.....refuting Olsen is like shooting fish in a barrel

 

[Iconoclast]

Don't really know much about Olson ... but why does he strike me as more of a pelagian rather than an arminian?

it is even worse than that...go on the link MW provided,and read his other...."writings":thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

There were plenty of Catholics and Magisterial Reformers and their followers who killed people in the name of Jesus.

From some people's posts to me here, they would delight in putting the torch to me, or see me burning in an eternal hell.

No...you are no martyr...or persecuted.....you have posted grevious error....and are being called on it

This is not a discussion point that gets debated back and forth...this is a clear departure from truth, from God, and from His word.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

God is in charge and has spoken in all 66 books of God breathed scripture.You will never come to truth as long as you read and agree with people who deny the scripture as 100%. You also do not believe the scripture as you have posted.
You think that by inventing your own church[cult]...of cut and paste scripture...remove some keep some ...that somehow these errors can be validated....they cannot .. but that is up to you.just be honest about what is taking place.
To you...believers like myself, mandy, and any others who believe in a full bible/...we have to be ...."pharisaical judizers," and what ever else you want.
I am glad you view me as an enemy. Your blood is off my head.
You have the right to post,and believe what you want.....I and others have the right to call it for what it is. I am sure you will find that most in here see it as clear error.
Your author has a clear agenda...as you do. It is hard to tell who infected who with this error.....but I know it needs to be identified and quarentined so it does not spread like the cancer it is....

This man is not my brother as he denies the scriptures my Lord gave....
the Ot God ...is the Nt God......this is an open attack on truth.

I will give you credit for posting what you believe in a public forum.
maybe this thread can also be seen as a prayer request for those who are in danger from departing from truth.

Keep posting your lies; you are digging a hole that will need a lot of repentance.

You're darn right that you are my enemy, just like the Judaizers were enemies of Jesus and the truth.

You are not by brother, either, and it's you and others of your ilk who are cancers in the Body of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Keep posting your lies; you are digging a hole that will need a lot of repentance.

Your darn right that you are my enemy, just like the Judaizers were enemies of Jesus and the truth.

You are not by brother, either, and it's you and others of your ilk who are cancers in the Body of Christ.

Thank you for understanding the issue:applause::applause::thumbs: I am glad you see me as such.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Thank you for understanding the issue:applause::applause::thumbs: I am glad you see me as such.

I am happy to see you as the Judaizer and persecutor that you are. And if you end up in heaven, I would also be happy to be in the opposite corner of it from you -- but you won't believe there what you believe here because it will have been purged from you.

And if you can't refrain from calling me apostate, stop responding to me. At least The Biblicist has stopped doing that and we have been able to have respectful debates.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am happy to see you as the Judaizer and persecutor that you are. And if you end up in heaven, I would also be happy to be in the opposite corner of it from you -- but you won't believe there what you believe here because it will have been purged from you.

And if you can't refrain from calling me apostate, stop responding to me. At least The Biblicist has stopped doing that and we have been able to have respectful debates.

There is very little debate to be had with someone who does not believe in a complete bible;

4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

It is you who deny the complete bible....You will not come to truth,unless you repent of this.
I and the others you reject here....believe the bibles testimony concerning it self ....even as we discuss what we agree or disagree on.... [for example.mandym and I disagree on several issues, but we are united on this}

To reject the bible, is to reject the God of the bible,and His people.

You must see us as an enemy...because you do not believe that the God of jn :16...is the same God who commanded Israel to destroy the Amalekites!
You have a problem with the True God...so you invent your own ..as your buddy Olson does.
This is a clear and outright rejection of the biblical God.....profess what you want.....you cannot clean this up. :thumbs:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

There is very little debate to be had with someone who does not believe in a complete bible;


It is you who deny the complete bible....You will not come to truth,unless you repent of this.
I and the others you reject here....believe the bibles testimony concerning it self ....even as we discuss what we agree or disagree on.... [for example.mandym and I disagree on several issues, but we are united on this}

To reject the bible, is to reject the God of the bible,and His people.

You must see us as an enemy...because you do not believe that the God of jn :16...is the same God who commanded Israel to destroy the Amalekites!
You have a problem with the True God...so you invent your own ..as your buddy Olson does.
This is a clear and outright rejection of the biblical God.....profess what you want.....you cannot clean this up. :thumbs:

My God is the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ, whom I attempt to follow. I don't know who your god is.

 

[Amy.G]

My God is the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ, whom I attempt to follow. I don't know who your god is.

Do you believe Jesus is God of the OT as well of the NT?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Do you believe Jesus is God of the OT as well of the NT?

Could you clarify/explain what you're getting at? if you're asking do I believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then yes, of course I believe that.

 

[Amy.G]

Could you clarify/explain what you're getting at? if you're asking do I believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then yes, of course I believe that.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

Somehow I wonder if you are trying to trick me. But I'll answer assuming that you're not.

I definitely affirm what the Nicene Creed says:

"I believe in... one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made..."

Or, in a more contemporary version:

" We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of God,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made..."

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Amy.G]

Somehow I wonder if you are trying to trick me. But I'll answer assuming that you're not.

It's a simple yes or no question. How can I trick you?

If you believe Jesus is God, then you should have no problem accepting what God did in the OT. So I don't understand your problem with God extinguishing entire populations.