Old Testament re-generation

The Jews didn't have scripture as a whole as we do all they had was the Old Testament. It doesn't say anything about regeneration so HoW did they or were they suppose to know? </font>[/QUOTE]Several places in teh OT talk about God giving a new heart.

According to Christ, a teacher of the Law should have known. Christ is the one who said it, not me.

You can't take NT truth back onto OT times. They were not saved by faith in the Messiah. I already clarified that. They were saved by faith in God, by responding to God's revelation. That is the same way we are saved. Christ's atonement is what paid for their sins to be sure, but they did not have that revelation yet.

I wouldn't call it ludicrous. It is the revelation of God we are talking about. They were saved by faith in God and his revelation up to that point.

Again, these questions are answered by Scripture; stop muddling around in philosophy.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

LK 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

JN 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

JN 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

JN 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

johnp.

 

Nick knew what Jesus was teaching and NO He was not talking in parables.... read it in context, The whole point was the incident of the Nehushtan at John 3.14. Also Jesus was telling him he couldn't understand because these were spiritual things (Nick couldn't believe cause he was spiritually discerned). It's common Jewish understanding at the Nehushtan God chose to save some and didn't give others the opportunity to be saved, many died before He allowed some (if any) to be saved that where bitten. Also, many where not even bitten! God chose some to be not bitten, many to die without a choice of salvation and many the opportunity to see Nahushtan and MAYBE (JEWISH DEBATED) NONE looked at Nahushtan even though it was there! (scipture is silent on this.)

 

That would take an eternity to define God Wes. If you do get a definition then it will be the same as the Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets I am sure.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Not True, There is the spirit of Christ that is knowing and following the teachings of Christ, making them part of your own spiritual life, and there is the Spirit of God who is the Christ, that once you know him and accept him as a part of your own life, you have Him "in you". The fruit of having the spirit of Christ IN YOU is that you behave in accordance with the teachings of the Christ! It transforms you from lost sinner to found saint!

 

You'd be wrong on this, because, of all the translations that I have, NONE of them omit the phrase (Numbers 21:8) And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." Well the scriptures do not reveal how many were actually bitten, and how many actually survived the ordeal, but the Invitation to LOOK and be Healed applied to ALL in the company of Moses in the wilderness.

 

Wes.

1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

RO 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

So the OT prophets believed in Christ and followed His teaching did they? That's good!

johnp.

 

Hi Pastor larry;

Scripture isn't philosophy. Where in the OT is the great Salvation mentioned?. This is the Salvation that saves us from our sins. If it existed at the time, wouldn't be in the OT?. Where does it say that if they had faith in God they would be saved? Where does it say that God is the way to eternal life?

You claim that men in the OT. were saved but yet you can't show anything that says they were saved from there sins.

I'd say this is more akin to philosophy.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Salvation is of the Jews.
You are treading on thin ice ILL. All of you better read Romans around a hundred more times if you think Jews (or greek) were not "saved". A good heart circumsized Jew who trusted and believed in God (and the messiah), who believed with the heart that God would forgive him and his trust was in God and not his works and the atonment of sin by the shedding of innocent blood (which they believed) would be saved. Read the mishnah and the taurgums.... Many knew that the law didn't save but faith and obedience to God did.
Romans 4:3 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
1 Samuel 15:22 22 And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

John 8:56 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

Do you not think Abraham did not hand down what he saw?
Look at the Job 38:32 Mazzaroth ! Every star is about the Messiah and His redemptive plan, both first and second coming! They knew this also!

Hosea 12:10 10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used SIMILITUDES, by the ministry of the prophets.

These types, similitudes the Jews knew to be foreshadowing of future events... The Jew knows that God in ALL THE feasts "typed" for them not only to remember but to LEARN that they had meaning other than just the Fomal understanding. Do you think honestly that they just "blow off" the unbelievable coincedences of passover and the cruxifiction? NO !

They supress the TRUTH in unrighteousness just like the whole world does. They are under the blinding of the evil one like everyone else. Though GOD will lift that veil one day... NOT THE JEWS THEMSELVES but GOD said HE WOULD (in His SOVERIEGN WILL) and ALL the Jews will be saved.

 

Good,
We know that, but until the penalty for sin was removed from mankind, each and all of mankind, regardless of their faith condition still faced death because of the penalty for sin.

With Jesus' ATONEMENT FOR SIN, the penalty was removed from each and all mankind, thus enabling man through faith to have everlasting life. Jesus' atonement was a ONCE, for ALL atonement that removed the penalty!

Atonement does not save anyone because salvation remains THROUGH FAITH. So if you believe, that is have faith, you are not judged, if you do not believe you are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Too simple for the complex thinker!

 

My opinion is that regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the sinner, when he repents and believes in Jesus Christ.

Salvation, to me means, the whole experience from belief in Him, to sanctification and finally glorification when we go into His Presence.

 

Hello crusader1611.

GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

We are out of the picture entirely man! Bystanders and observers. We are either under the direct control of our sinful natures or we are under the control of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the instruction there, "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Is not for us to live up to but for God to use. If we have not read an instruction then the Holy Spirit will not use it. Cause and effect. That's why it is important to read the bible and get it into your head. Then the Holy Spirit will use it as He wills and wills in us His purposes.
In saying that we are under the direct control of our fallen natures, and in that condition all men begin, except the two Adam's, I don't mean that it has any power to do as it wishes. It itself is under the direct control of the Holy Spirit and does as He directs it! God is Sovereign.
This belief of mine causes me to say that God is the Author of sin and that man is a glove puppet. I know what it sounds like but this is the understanding I have and I don't blame myself for this belief, I blame God.

It can be nothing but monergistic. God is Sovereign. Man is dead in his sins and transgressions. Eph 2:1. In this condition his sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.
Each of these two verses alone do for any selfrighteousness in us. We hate God. The 'Who does He think He is' attitude in man is normal? Each and everyman wants to be sovereign,independant and in control of others. Little Hitlers and but for the will of God we would express ourselves fully.
Synergism allows man the false idea that he, not God, has the final say over his soul. Although cooperation is put forward in this doctrine what essentially believers hold to is that finally it is man who decides who God loves! It believes that man can take salvation or leave it and leave it. This places God waiting on our goodness before he can love us and forgive us. It places God in the strange condition of loving those that have come to Him with an everlasting love which He must stop loving them with if they fall away! It is semi-Pelagianism and is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. It is a denial of scripture and an affront to the mercy of God. A filty rag. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:14-16.

JER 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.
John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.'
Believing is regeneration! That's light that is. At the point of rebirth these words, repentance, regeneration and believe merge into one. What you think?

But before you believe you must have a circumcised heart and that is believing.

And that is salvation, forgiveness, regeneration, being born again, being made alive, joining the Flock and becoming the Temple of the Living God!
Whatever happens after that, after the trusting, is because of circumcision not towards it.

Is it? Two more words that merge into one at rebirth. It must be said by the darkness. They are two different words. One means to be renewed in spirit and the other saved from the penalty of sin. Two aspects of the same event.

I beg to differ. What Salvation is all about is God strutting His stuff! The revealing of His glory. It is not about us.

How'd I do then?

johnp.

 

"My opinion is that regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the sinner, when he repents and believes in Jesus Christ."

You have combined two seperate events. The HS working and the response.

 

Why does one think that "regeneration" BC would be different than "regeneration" AD? There can be only one kind of regeneration when the subject is man.

 

Wes.

There must have been two types of regeneration because man could not call on the Name of the Lord until they knew the Name that they had to call on!
Until the Advent no one knew His Name therefore no one could be saved in the way we are. There was no regeneration by the Holy Spirit BC therefore no one was saved BC because to be saved one must call on His Name and to do that you have to know His Name.
The Old Testament states that man has to create himself a new heart.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
So in this way regeneration was different. It was a selfgenerating regeneration that failed to save but kept them safe until the time Jesus atoned for sin. Then He went, during His death, down to those ones and preached the gospel to them and took with Him to Heaven all those that called on His Name.

Is that right ILUVLIGHT?

I get nought out of ten for believing that. I'll let you give me marks out of ten for understanding you.

johnp.

 

Pure foolishness johnp, look at the Torah, they knew who to call on from Adam foreward!

Bring what I quoted of your up on yours screen, select it and hit the "delete" key. Make it go away it is false! Erase it from your memory banks. Never let it see the light of day again!

Man has know who to call and how to call since Adam!

 

Wes.

But it is said that we must call on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved is it not? How could they call on Him when they did not know His Name BC?

All you write is what you think, mere opinion, without scriptural support but 'look it up in the Torah'! How can I look up the Name of Jesus in the Torah if the Name of Jesus is not there and you say what I write is foolish!

False! Why? I cannot erase what I have said. First I would like to know if what I wrote was right Wes. You have done nothing to disprove my last post and second firsts God will not let me erase anything from my mind forgetful as I am, everything I have ever said and done and seen remains.

Man has known? Since Adam, do you include Adam? Prove it with scripture?

johnp.

 

And who do you say that I am? Jesus asked the Apostles. And Peter replied, Thou are the Christ the son of the Living God! And Jesus said "....upon this Rock will I build my church".
If Jesus is God the Son, and God is eternal, is He not God the Son to Adam in the same manner that he is to us? Even if none in the Old Testament era knew the name of Jesus, they still knew to have FAITH in the LIVING GOD just as we are commanded by Jesus that we must. Jesus told us, to have faith in the one who sent him! Who else could that be but the same living God that Noah obeyed, that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ruth, Ester, etc, etc, etc, all had faith in.

Conclusion, the Old Testament people were saved the same way that we all are saved, and that is FAITH IN GOD, the difference is that we know the name of God the Son! It was given to us by God in His Holy Word.