Old Testament re-generation

ADAM Knew God, God spoke directly to ADAM. Eve Knew God, Cain knew God, Abel Knew God, Seth Knew God, from the very beginning Man knew God. Every generation from Adam has had an innate knowledge of God. Innate knowledge does not mean intimate knowledge, but instead means the knowledge that God exists and is in control.

 

Ok Wes, that's what I thought more or less.

ILUVLIGHT? How'd I do? Did I get your belief right?

johnp.

 

Hi Wes;
The Name "Jesus" means "Salvation." Where ever Salvation is, is where Jesus is found.
There is no way other than Jesus Christ no one else or nothing else can save but the Son Of God.

What Calvinist won't admit is that men in the old testament were not saved until christ came to them and preached the gospel to them.
David was in Hell and knew that the lord would not leave him there because he looked for the coming of the holy one Jesus Christ.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

When Christ died on the cross He went to Hell in our place;

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

What was christ doing in Hell? He had to go there to defeat death and set the captives free.

The paradise that Christ and the thief went to was in Hell. Yet seperate from torture the lost have to endure. They were held captive there by Satan until the atonement had been paid. When Christ rose from the dead He had conquered death and Satan.

This from the Psalms;
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.
In Bold in verse 16 above is proof that Christ went there to show the captives the path. The Path is the gospel.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Hi JohnP;

No You didn't It wasn't because they didn't know the name of Christ but that Christ hadn't paid the atonement yet.
Actually what kept them safe was there belief in God. But the requirement was that they had to believe in Christ as well. Just as we do but they couldn't believe in Him because for all they knew was that the Messiah was just a deliverer. Even though it is written that He would be God in the flesh they didn't understand it because just as there are parts of prophecy that we don't understand because God sealed it until the right time. This was sealed and kept from them until the right time.
Read the last post I posted to Wes and take a good look and you'll see that David was in Hell until the death of Christ.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

David was not in HELL per se... He was in "Abrahams bossom"...Along with the rest of the believers...

You pretty much have it nailed down on that though ILL...

 

Sorry crusader I was trying to see if I could write like ILUVLIGHT.

He answered me two posts ago.
ILUVLIGHT? How'd I do? Did I get your belief right?
To see if I understood correctly. He says I didn't.

I don't believe a man has any good in him.

I believe that if any man believes he can believe in Jesus without regeneration, without being born again, just reinforces the truth of scripture that man is depraved and that the scriptures are spiritually discerned.
The message is so clear only a blindness can account for missing or denying it. It is, God my Saviour.

Sorry for the confusion.

johnp.

 

Then you do not accept the creation story, God declared the creation good, and that includes man. Sin did not change man, it severed the relationship that man had with his creator! Until man settles the sin issue with God through confession and faith, man cannot be restored to a relationship with God. Regeneration is believing in God and Possessing faith in God, and it includes confession of sin and receiving of God's forgiveness. Every man has the same capability to do that! Every man can come by hearing. Everyman can be regenerated through faith in God.

 

Wes.

Then you do not accept the creation story... I do.
...God declared the creation good... He did.
...and that includes man. It did.

Sin did not change man... That is just what I said, that man is depraved and incapable of discerning God's words unless he is born again.
...it severed the relationship that man had with his creator! It did and we died spiritually.
Until man settles the sin issue with God through confession and faith... That is what I said. Man is dead in his sins and trangressions and is incapable of seeing Jesus as the one that settled the issue of sin in man.
...man cannot be restored to a relationship with God. The covenant was made between Jesus and the father not between man and God.
Regeneration is believing in God and Possessing faith in God, and it includes confession of sin and receiving of God's forgiveness. Every man has the same capability to do that! I admit that everyman has the same capability to turn to God, none.
Every man can come by hearing. It is whosoever not everyman but any whosoevers.
Everyman can be regenerated through faith in God. We are saved by grace through faith and this is a gift of God.

johnp.

 

Why are you accusing God of creating depraved man? That is not what scripture says!

 

If humans die spiritually they die naturally, the Creator God the son tells us it is spirit that quickens the flesh, if the spirit is dead then the flesh cannot continue to live without the spirit. So your premise is wrong because, when the flesh dies, the spirit is loosed from the flesh, but the flesh cannot live without the spirit.

 

I admit that everyman has the same capability to turn to God, none.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you are denying the truth of scripture!

 

Scripture please.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

johnp.

 

Then you are denying the truth of scripture!

RO 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;

RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

RO 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."

RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;

RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."

RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

johnp.

 

Scripture please.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]According to Jesus, all sins are of the spirit, because,

The spirit is what gives life to, and therefore controls the flesh. So if a person sins in the flesh, it is because of the spirit, and not the flesh.

 

OK Crusader1611, we do not disagree on that.

The fall did not change man from what God created and placed into the garden! Humanity retained ALL that God created in man. That includes all the abilities with which God created man. Such as,
the ability to hear,
the ability to act on what is heard,
the ability to seek God,
the ability to know that God is calling him,
the ability to POSSESS FAITH
the ability to act on that FAITH
the ability to repent from sin, though the desire to sin remains present.
the ability to choose among choices
the ability to reject what is heard
Etc, Etc, Etc,

God's created man remains what it was created to be and it retains what it had when created, except because of sin, man's purity and innocence is gone, and it is only through Faith in God that man can be cleansed from All unrighteousness. Without faith, man would not confess his sins. Thus he could not be forgiven and cleansed from unrighteousness.

 

Hello crusader.

Adam lost that original righteousness by disobeying a direct command of God. The man not man lost that. We must not be included in that sin.
Man has no ability to prevent himself from sinning being in very nature sin. We are not sinners because we sin we sin because we are sinners even after regeneration, or we are perfect.

Read what I say on the thread to Wes before you come back at me please.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Your definition of life is not my definition of life. My definition, the one that I accept, is one that has the spirit of man in communion with God. Outside of that is only death.

The spirit is what gives life to, and therefore controls the flesh. That opposes God to His face, a denial of scripture.
RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

The spirit of man before regeneration is dead and has no control.
The spirit of man after regeneration is alive and still has no control.
For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. Gal 5:17-18.

So if a person sins in the flesh, it is because of the spirit, and not the flesh.

Rom 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace
Notice Paul does not say the mind controlled by the persons spirit but the mind controlled by the Spirit of God.
Even then, with the Spirit of God within him, Paul writes as he does as one who has no control over his actions but that what he hates that is what he does.
Some Christians maybe surprised by that fact, that we can do no good, but God works through us to acheive His purpose. The good and the bad.
It is a good day when God gifts a man with the very special gift of 'know yourself'. I shall praise Him all the more the more I see my sin and can weigh my actions in His light and not in my own eyes. Everything I do I do for myself. This is a sin I'm willing to confess. That I am a sinner and that is all I am. A nothing. The more I know about myself the more I rely on the one who died in my place. And the more I rely on Him the stronger I am.
If as a Christian Paul is unable to overcome his flesh what chance you O mighty one, as a sinner?
To say you are able of yourself to believe on Christ, to trust Him and repent of your sins just shows that your heart is deceitful beyond measure and that you have been deceived by it. You claim that you believe, your belief originated in you so you say that you can do what can't be done by any man but Christ Himself thus you continue to believe in the original lie, "You shall be like God."
Christ, born in the likeness of sinful man Rom 8:3, not in the likeness of God, but in everyway like His brothers, overcame the sinful nature even when cut off from His Father, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?". You say you can do likewise.

What?

johnp.

 

We are not sinners until we sin the first sin! You cannot be a sinner without sinning any more than you can be a fisherman without catching fish.