Old Testament re-generation

johnp,

You said,

Here is my answer. I went to an Arminian Bible College and a friend of mine suggested this Calvinistic seminary. My friend stressed that they believed the Bible to be the Word of God. It was on this basis that I thought it would be a good place to study more of the Word of God.

I found out they would not even entertain the questions and views of the other students. In 1969 I would not even offer a question that disagreed with Dr. Rudolph. To me this was not a theological education, merely indoctrination. To be educated in theology one has to see all sides and then ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth.

The Five Points of Calvinism and the Five Points of Arminianism are light years apart. I knew my Bible did not say that God damns people at will, and by His same inclination saves only some people.

To me it is at best irreligious to say that God damns the majority, and at worst it is blasphemy. Let's hope, for some of you guys, that the truth is somewhere in the middle. And what makes it even less palatable is when you gentlemen suggest that superlapsarian Calvinism are doctrines of grace. Wow! That's a stttrreetccchhhh!

 

John came preaching the Kingdom into which people are born again. This was not an OT reality.

People sacrificed animals in the OT. It is absurd to suppose God had regenerate people sacrificing animals for their sins and an insult to his son.

Jesus came to save his Jewish people from their sins because they were not saved. You can't die with Christ when Christ has not yet died.

 

Hello Ben.

I am not sure where you are coming from with your reply so I thought I would take this oppotunity to say hello.

The sacrificing of animals never removes sin. I don't think anyone suggested it or have I missed something?

The only difference I can see between the OT lot and us is that they were waiting for and we have seen. Job knew about his Redeemer and the resurrection. 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
He trusted in the same One we do.
The sacrifices of the animals were prefiguring Christ or they were to show how they do not work.
Gen 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

The sacrifices of Israel were made to make the types clean. HEB 9:23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 2:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest...
God's on message from the start to the end.

Whatcha think?

johnp.

 

Hi Ben

You're right A-men
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Um, Calvinists believe, and must believe (in order to protect their doctrines) that the OT faithful were also born again believers who sacrificed animals for their sins. Now why would a born again believer washed in the blood of Jesus need to do such a thing?

Perhaps you can explain why John came preaching the Kingdom of God too.

 

Hello Ben.

They were so commanded. Because they were acting out 'types'.
Heb 2:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest...
God's on message from the start to the end. The same message. Unless a man is born again he cannot see.
The OT crowd of saints needed to be clean outwardly because they were dealing with shadows of reality.
HEB 9:23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
It was necessary... But it is no longer necessary. We no longer deal with the shadows of Heaven. That does not mean that the OT saints had less than us. It's just that an act was taking place prefiguring the future.

He was the King's helald. MT 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, `Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.' "
His duty was to announce the arrival of the King and to prepare the Children of God so that were in the right spiritual demeanour to be presented to the Lord their God on His State visit.
John's baptism saved no one. I don't understand the question really.

How's that?

johnp.

 

And pray tell, why would God have people sacrificing animals for their sins as "types" if they were already washed in the blood of Jesus by reality?


Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Now as for the "arrival of the Kingdom." Are you admitting the Kingdom had not yet arrived in the days of the OT saints before John?

 

Ben.

I told you what do you want? Heb 9:23.
HEB 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

EX 15:13 "In your unfailing love you will lead the people you have redeemed. In your strength you will guide them to your holy dwelling. 14 The nations will hear and tremble; anguish will grip the people of Philistia.
JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. (This destroys you by the way.)

Answer the post above yours.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

Such strong words for even a Calvinist. The redeemer has lived always, but this doesn't mean He had already redeemed those in the O.T. So before you give yourself a gold star go back and reread what you obviously missed. Being redeemed from a battle and being redeemed from hell are two different things. If you want people to think you know what you are talking about then read what is being said before you quote it
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Busy tonight ILUVLIGHT I see.

Ready?

What? Ex 15:13 and Job 19:25 are strong words from a Calvinist? God's a Calvinist Wow man! Told you didn't I?

 

Hi JohnP;

This is your strong words. A false claim I might add

 

ILUVLIGHT.

It might indeed. I apologise for my error. I will try harder.

I said;
My God does the judging not me and I will stand because He is able to make me stand as Moses stood, face to face with God eyeballing one another.
You reply;
So now a burning bush has eyeballs :biggrin: You keep adding to scripture like you intend to rewrite it.
I am reduced I fear. To escape the cutting edge of this argument I will ask how you know a Burning Bush has no eyes? It could see Moses could It not?

Don't need boats man He divides the water for me.
The rest of the paragraph would make for an interesting topic but I'm afraid that your answer about the burning bush leaves me with the impression that you, far from needing milk, you really do need to see the Kingdom of God.
It's almost as if you have no bible with you.
GE 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Ex 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
NU 12:8 With him I speak face to face,
Jdg 6:22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"

From the book of answers!
1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. Not like Moses who saw Him face to face.

JOB 19:27 I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not other. How my heart yearns within me!

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
May The Light Of Christ shine On Us All;
Mike

 

GE 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Ex 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
Nu 12:6 he said, "Listen to my words:

"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions,
I speak to him in dreams.

NU 12:7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.

NU 12:8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?"

DT 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face
Jdg 6:22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

[Born again Christians have not the sight of Moses!]

This is your feeble response to my questions? Have you no shame?
Let me remind you.
I said;
My God does the judging not me and I will stand because He is able to make me stand as Moses stood, face to face with God eyeballing one another.
You reply;
So now a burning bush has eyeballs :biggrin: You keep adding to scripture like you intend to rewrite it.
My answer to that was; I am reduced I fear. To escape the cutting edge of this argument I will ask how you know a Burning Bush has no eyes? It could see Moses could It not?

It's almost as if you have no bible with you.
GE 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Ex 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
NU 12:8 With him I speak face to face,
Jdg 6:22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"

From the book of answers!
1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. Not like Moses who saw Him face to face.

JOB 19:27 I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not other. How my heart yearns within me!

Would you like to respond to this old chap? Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Just does not cut the mustard.

johnp.