Omnitemporal and God's relationship to time

[reformedbeliever]

Hello brothers and sisters in Christ. It's been a long time since I've posted on here. I've been busy with our ministry and life and simply have not had the time or desire to be here. I miss many of you.
I've been thinking a lot about time and God's relationship to time.
Here are a few things to ponder.
1. God is the Creator and therefore is not bound by time. All of His creation is bound by time.
2. Time is a measurement.
3. God and His created angels are able to enter into His created time and exit into eternity at will.
4. Eternity and God's created time are separate?
I'm actually seeking your input and your thoughts on this subject. I'm not really looking to debate... believe it or not!
I look forward to hearing your responses. It's good to "see" you!
Grace and peace.

 

[Skandelon]

I don't know if I can really answer any questions or even add to what you have said, but I will say that these matters you have listed are probably a big part of the confusion and differences we have regarding how God relates to man.

Anytime a finite creature, whose understanding is limited to the scope of his existence within time and space, begins speculating and drawing hard a fast conclusions about how an infinite all powerful God MUST act, work or relate to us, things can get way out of hand. We see this all too often. For example, I've seen statements such as, "If God knew everything before creating everything then he must have predetermined everything to be exactly as it is in such a way that it could not have been any other way."

I want to say, "REALLY? You think you know what the infinite God could or couldn't have done based upon your small finite understanding?"

 

[HankD]

Hello brothers and sisters in Christ. It's been a long time since I've posted on here. I've been busy with our ministry and life and simply have not had the time or desire to be here. I miss many of you.
I've been thinking a lot about time and God's relationship to time.
Here are a few things to ponder.
1. God is the Creator and therefore is not bound by time. All of His creation is bound by time.
2. Time is a measurement.
3. God and His created angels are able to enter into His created time and exit into eternity at will.
4. Eternity and God's created time are separate?
I'm actually seeking your input and your thoughts on this subject. I'm not really looking to debate... believe it or not!
I look forward to hearing your responses. It's good to "see" you!
Grace and peace.

It's beyond our comprehension?

NKJV
Ecclesiastes 3

10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

HankD​

 

[DHK]

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:11)
In light of your third point, did God create the angels within the six days of creation (presuming you hold to a six literal day creation), seeing there are many verses that indicate that he created all things in six days and then rested or ceased from his creation on the seventh day.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't know DHK. Great question. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden. Did evil exist at that time or just the possibility of knowing evil? Did Satan already exist? I tend to believe that Satan and the other angels were not living beings but created spirits.
Didn't God create all living things during the creation? Are angels considered living things?

 

[Van]

As a minimalist, I tend to shy away from conjecture about how God operates in "eternity." It is a common understanding that because God created time, i.e the space time continuem, that everything happens at once in eternity. But this is conjecture. There could be "spiritual time" or God realm time that is beyond our knowledge.

So why do some speculate, what drives them to plunge past what has been revealed and make assertions about what has not been revealed?

Lets take the opening post and see what makes it tick:

God is Creator and is not bound by created time. This is true. But God could create time and submit to it. The picture of reality as revealed in the Bible has God operating within time. He does things according to His timing.

Is time a measurement? Of what? You do not have to go too far down this road to leave reality and enter pagan metaphysics. We have all pondered the idea that if you could travel at the speed of light, you would not age. So a light beam, with a person riding on it, could take a billion light years to get from the source to where we would see it, but the person would arrive in "no time" being a billion years younger than something not traveling with him. But that picture too falls apart upon further study.
It is here that I admit I cannot understand time or gravity or lots of stuff of modern physics.

Bottom line, when someone starts being dogmatic about eternity, they are simply inventing support for some man-made doctrine that cannot be supported biblically, such as God must know the future exhaustively because He created time. It is twaddle.

 

[Winman]

I believe God is eternal, which is incomprehensible. But we can view it in a number of ways such as mathematics, there is no end to numbers. There is no end to largeness or smallness.

Time and eternity aren't separate, time is enclosed within eternity.

If I recall correctly, I read once that C.S. Lewis described time like a time line beginning with creation and ending when time is no more. All events in history appear in their order along this line. God is outside this line and can view all history at once, he can see the end from the beginning. But also, God can enter time at any point along this line.

I don't know if this is correct, but I like this analogy.

 

[quantumfaith]

If you want to explore a scholarly and apologetic perspective on time and God's relationship to it I suggest:

Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time

Dr. William Lane Craig

Dr. Craig explores issues related to time from scientific, natural, philosophical and apologetic perspectives. Topics (Chapters) include the following:

1. Two Views of Divine Eternity
2. Divine Timelessness
3. Divine Temporality
4. The Dynamic Conception of Time
5. The Static Conception of time
6. God, Time and Creation

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

BTW....what is "Twaddle"? Sounds kinda dirty:smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

I don't know DHK. Great question. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden. Did evil exist at that time or just the possibility of knowing evil? Did Satan already exist? I tend to believe that Satan and the other angels were not living beings but created spirits.
Didn't God create all living things during the creation? Are angels considered living things?

Angels are spirit beings.
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)
--The traditional view is that God created them during the six days of Creation.
One of the reasons for the Gap Theory was to explain the existence of angels, and thus they put the creation of angels well before the creation of the world. They have another world to work with--a world that was destroyed. But I don't accept that view.
One thing we do know for sure is that angels are created beings. We just don't know exactly when they were created. If God created all things in six days it makes sense that he created them sometime in those six days. That is as far as we are concerned. But then there is no time in eternity, so it gets a bit mind-boggling to think any further than that.

 

[percho]

I don't know DHK. Great question. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden. Did evil exist at that time or just the possibility of knowing evil? Did Satan already exist? I tend to believe that Satan and the other angels were not living beings but created spirits.
Didn't God create all living things during the creation? Are angels considered living things?

Well being the Lamb was slain before it was said let there be light I would think evil was already present it was just a question of time. Oops time?

 

[percho]

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Fulness relative to what? I wonder what time was relative to here?

 

[Allan]

Hello brothers and sisters in Christ. It's been a long time since I've posted on here. I've been busy with our ministry and life and simply have not had the time or desire to be here. I miss many of you.
I've been thinking a lot about time and God's relationship to time.
Here are a few things to ponder.
1. God is the Creator and therefore is not bound by time. All of His creation is bound by time.
2. Time is a measurement.
3. God and His created angels are able to enter into His created time and exit into eternity at will.
4. Eternity and God's created time are separate?
I'm actually seeking your input and your thoughts on this subject. I'm not really looking to debate... believe it or not!
I look forward to hearing your responses. It's good to "see" you!
Grace and peace.

Hey brother, and beloved of the Lord... it is great to see you :love2:

To the OP.. I agree that God is not necessarily bound 'by' time yet due to God operating 'in' time He binds Himself to it for our sakes. However what we can note is the 'Transcendence' of God relates to His knowledge not necessarily His being. In that what I mean is that though all things are before him at once, He relates in the process of time, pressing Himself into it (so-to-speak) to operate to and with His creation both spiritual and physical. Thus He is in time in being, and also outside of it in knowledge. Thus He is literally in time working and relating to His creation but still out side the scope time knowing all things.. the end from the beginning.

Angels are another matter. The spiritual realm, while it called 'eternity' from our standpoint that standpoint speaks to our relationship 'wtih' God (as it is without end), not necessarily time itself. And while angels are outside our realm that does not mean they are outside of time. In fact if they can see just as God does (all things and time at once) they would be omnipotent as well.. and what would that say about Satan and his demonic host who are also angels. Therefore '

While their time 'might' be different than ours (and there is nothing scripture states to presume it isn't), there is nothing in scripture that says in the spiritual realm there is no 'time' and therefore no passage of it.

Thus for us 'time' is precious as we have little of it and thus we are defined by time. For God time has little meaning and though He operates within it, He is not defined by it and once we dies and be with Him, neither will it define us and it's meaning - while real, will be of little note.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Interesting. Greetings to you too brother Allen.
I agree with most of what you say. However...
Time as we know it is a measurement. From seconds to minutes to hours and days. Can eternity be measured? I think not. Therefore, I believe that eternity and that realm is not measurable.
Of course God can and does operate within the measured time that He created. However with His omnipresence in the past, present, and future, He has no need for measurement. He is already there. Psalm 139
When the preincarnate Christ appeared to people, did He appear in His resurection body? Did He operate within time in the body He ascended to heaven with, before He was born?
I'm really not trying to prove a word or concept such as predestination, (although it is used in the Bible,) as some have accused. With God, is anything "pre?" He simply is "I am." He is present within and outside all of time as we know it. I think the word predestine, along with appoint, are all words used to help us to understand something that very well may be incomprehensible. I enjoy exploring these things.

 

[Allan]

Interesting. Greetings to you too brother Allen.
I agree with most of what you say. However...
Time as we know it is a measurement. From seconds to minutes to hours and days. Can eternity be measured? I think not. Therefore, I believe that eternity and that realm is not measurable.
Of course God can and does operate within the measured time that He created. However with His omnipresence in the past, present, and future, He has no need for measurement. He is already there. Psalm 139
When the preincarnate Christ appeared to people, did He appear in His resurection body? Did He operate within time in the body He ascended to heaven with, before He was born?
I'm really not trying to prove a word or concept such as predestination, (although it is used in the Bible,) as some have accused. With God, is anything "pre?" He simply is "I am." He is present within and outside all of time as we know it. I think the word predestine, along with appoint, are all words used to help us to understand something that very well may be incomprehensible. I enjoy exploring these things.

Ok.. But the term 'eternity' IS a measurement of time which in fact reflects the vastness OF time. When God created the Heavens, He did so in conjunction with the physical creation. Therefore it to is marked by time as it has a beginning.

The only time the term 'eternity' is used in scripture is also translatable to 'live forever' or 'live for eternity'. Other than that usage heaven is never described as -Eternity.
When 'we' use the term "eternity" to describe heaven it is to refer to a place of 'time without end' not separate from time. Remember the very word eternity encompasses the very nature and volume of time itself.

The body to which Christ appeared in is never referred to or back to, as his resurrected body. It was the same 'type' of body the angels take. Christ is never said to have clothed Himself in flesh and become man more than just the one time event. Other than than He took on the appearance of a man, as the angels do, yet they were not men and nor was Christ.

I do not believe the terms predestined and appointed speak to things that are 'incomprehensible', at least with respect to time, because they speak directly to what we understand regarding time. (how things are predestined or appointed, now that is another matter altogether). Yet, at the same time, God Himself is not 'fully' knowable now with our finite minds, yet the one thing scripture speaks to of God in all aspects is that He is there in the moment of time, not that He travels back and forth and through time.

Again, Heaven and earth are created in time, and thus both are bound in and by time. This is why both are described using measurements 'of' time. Yet heaven is spoken of as place NOT of no time but where time has 1. no end; and 2. less important (meaning events are of more importance than the time it takes to do them).

At least.. that is how I see it. :wavey:

 

[JesusFan]

Interesting. Greetings to you too brother Allen.
I agree with most of what you say. However...
Time as we know it is a measurement. From seconds to minutes to hours and days. Can eternity be measured? I think not. Therefore, I believe that eternity and that realm is not measurable.
Of course God can and does operate within the measured time that He created. However with His omnipresence in the past, present, and future, He has no need for measurement. He is already there. Psalm 139
When the preincarnate Christ appeared to people, did He appear in His resurection body? Did He operate within time in the body He ascended to heaven with, before He was born?
I'm really not trying to prove a word or concept such as predestination, (although it is used in the Bible,) as some have accused. With God, is anything "pre?" He simply is "I am." He is present within and outside all of time as we know it. I think the word predestine, along with appoint, are all words used to help us to understand something that very well may be incomprehensible. I enjoy exploring these things.

Think the best way to express this that I have ever heard was that God exists "in the now/eternally present"
That to God, everything is in the present stae...

Like a parade going down main street, He is overhead, seeing start to finish as same event, while those on the ground see ONLY linear parts of it, going forward...

Before ANY was created by God, was JUST the truine Godhead, father/Son/Spirit, no time. nothing BUT Him/Them...

Another way to try to explain this to a degree is IF you know Superman, he has a villain called mxy, who lives in 5 Dimensions of reality...

mxy can interact any time with Superman in 3 D, but Sues cannot interact with him at 5D reality...
God like that to a degree, he exists at "nth" dimension/Heavenly realm, and we cannot experience Him at all until he decides to "interact" to our 3D levels!

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hello again Allen. In John 12:41 is it not Christ glorified which Isaiah saw?

 

[Allan]

Hello again Allen. In John 12:41 is it not Christ glorified which Isaiah saw?

Hehehe.. Hello Reformed, man I have missed speaking with you. I can't express how good it is 'see' you again. Welcome back (however short that might be)

Revealed in His Glory, does not equate nor necessitate it being His resurrected body brother.

Remember, He only came in the likeness of Human flesh, once. Whereby He became like us by clothing himself in flesh. It was only after His resurrection he obtained a 'resurrected body'.