On Reformation Day

[preachinjesus]

Over in the silly Halloween thread, Dr Bob made a good note about the nature of Reformation Day. Go read it here before commenting: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=89793

Anyhoo, I celebrate Reformation Day on October 31 for the same reason I celebrate Independence Day on July 4, Christmas on December 25 and such. A key event sparked the smoldering fires of reform in Europe as Luther delivered his 95 Theses in Wittenberg.

For nearly 500 years we have been the beneficaries of the concerted efforts of so many leaders who realigned the purposes of the Church to rediscover the central "solas" of the faith.

Though Baptists clearly arose out of the Radical Reformation later on, and specifically from the English Separatist movement (with some Anabaptist influence), we can still look back to this date in history and be reflectant of the accomplishments and events that took place following this momentus event.

I am thankful for the rediscovered "solas" that still anchor our biblical faith:
Solus Christus
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Sola Gratia
Soli Deo Gloria

So what say ye?

 

[Amy.G]

So what say ye?

I say I like your post! :thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

I agree with you. When I dropped my 8th grader off at school this morning I could see inside his classroom and the teacher had written on the board "Happy Reformation Day!"

 

[Salty]

I agree with you. When I dropped my 8th grader off at school this morning I could see inside his classroom and the teacher had written on the board "Happy Reformation Day!"

Oh, that horrible teacher should be fired on the spot for imposing religion on a capative audience - NOT

 

[InTheLight]

Oh, that horrible teacher should be fired on the spot for imposing religion on a capative audience - NOT

It's a Christian school.

 

[JonC]

I disagree – but mostly because I do not believe that the Reformers departed enough from Catholic doctrine and towards strict biblical doctrine to constitute a celebratory day. While the Second Wave that Dr. Bob speaks of occurred post-Reformation, the doctrines that influenced the movement and subsequently blended with reformation doctrine in Baptist thought pre-existed Luther. (If you recall, these are the ones that Luther described as joining them in the reformation but were not actually a part of them. He considered them heretics, as did the Catholic Church, for the views that have become a substantial part of Baptist doctrine). But of course, without the Reformation and the break that occurred from Catholic doctrine, I doubt that the Second Wave would have survived.



So while I am also grateful for Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Knox for their heroic stand against the pervasive evil of the false-so-called “Christian” religion of Catholicism, I also have to acknowledge that they too brought their own form of pervasive evil by maintaining a distinctly Catholic view of the Church.

 

[Salty]

It's a Christian school.

Opps, my fault - I didn't have my mind reading hat on

 

[JonC]

In retrospect – I suppose that Reformation Day is truer to the spirit of Halloween than what the secular world practices. While restricted to a specific group of believers, it is a time of remembering the lives of Christians who have passed.

 

[Luke2427]

I disagree – but mostly because I do not believe that the Reformers departed enough from Catholic doctrine and towards strict biblical doctrine to constitute a celebratory day. While the Second Wave that Dr. Bob speaks of occurred post-Reformation, the doctrines that influenced the movement and subsequently blended with reformation doctrine in Baptist thought pre-existed Luther. (If you recall, these are the ones that Luther described as joining them in the reformation but were not actually a part of them. He considered them heretics, as did the Catholic Church, for the views that have become a substantial part of Baptist doctrine). But of course, without the Reformation and the break that occurred from Catholic doctrine, I doubt that the Second Wave would have survived.



So while I am also grateful for Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Knox for their heroic stand against the pervasive evil of the false-so-called “Christian” religion of Catholicism, I also have to acknowledge that they too brought their own form of pervasive evil by maintaining a distinctly Catholic view of the Church.

Well, you ought to do some research on the horrendous beliefs of the first Baptist, John Smythe.

They were far worse than the beliefs of Luther.

Furthermore, you ought to do a study on the beliefs of the Founding Fathers of America.

Do you refuse to celebrate independence day because they owned and worked and bought and sold slaves?

To refuse to celebrate either because they were spawned by flawed men is very irreverent.

And you did not specify which doctrines of Luther's were so terribly bad that it ought to cause us to forgo celebrating quite literally the most important event in the last one thousand years of human history.

 

[evangelist6589]

Over in the silly Halloween thread, Dr Bob made a good note about the nature of Reformation Day. Go read it here before commenting: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=89793

Anyhoo, I celebrate Reformation Day on October 31 for the same reason I celebrate Independence Day on July 4, Christmas on December 25 and such. A key event sparked the smoldering fires of reform in Europe as Luther delivered his 95 Theses in Wittenberg.

For nearly 500 years we have been the beneficaries of the concerted efforts of so many leaders who realigned the purposes of the Church to rediscover the central "solas" of the faith.

Though Baptists clearly arose out of the Radical Reformation later on, and specifically from the English Separatist movement (with some Anabaptist influence), we can still look back to this date in history and be reflectant of the accomplishments and events that took place following this momentus event.

I am thankful for the rediscovered "solas" that still anchor our biblical faith:
Solus Christus
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Sola Gratia
Soli Deo Gloria

So what say ye?

Are you saying that my attitude towards Halloween comes from some of my non Reformed authors and influences?

 

[preachinjesus]

Are you saying that my attitude towards Halloween comes from some of my non Reformed authors and influences?

This thread has nothing to do with you or your influences.

 

[InTheLight]

Are you saying that my attitude towards Halloween comes from some of my non Reformed authors and influences?

I don't know and don't care. Don't make this thread into a Calvinist/Non-Cal thread.

 

[JonC]

Wow Luke – I don’t think that I have seen a post that was entirely composed of unfounded assumptions until this one. Let me help.
Just because I disagree with the Reformation constituting a celebratory day does not mean that I object to others observing Reformation Day. I was surprised that you took my comments to be offering a cause for others not to celebrate the day. But here we go:

Well, you ought to do some research on the horrendous beliefs of the first Baptist, John Smythe.

False assumption – I have studied Smyth. Additionally, the assumption is not relevant because I do not celebrate “Smythe Day.”

They were far worse than the beliefs of Luther.

False assumption that when presented two bad options we should choose to honor the lesser of two evils. For example, in terms of Christian liberty and rejection of liturgy Smyth wins hands down. In terms of original sin I’d side closer to Luther. But I do not actually celebrate either man as a personal choice.

Furthermore, you ought to do a study on the beliefs of the Founding Fathers of America.

Do you refuse to celebrate independence day because they owned and worked and bought and sold slaves?

False assumption – I have studied the beliefs of the Founding Fathers of America – but I do not look to our Founding Fathers for spiritual guidance or doctrinal authority. So that is not my reason for refusing to celebrate independence day – I observe it as the “birth of our nation” (although I have to admit that that observation is really nothing more than cooking out). I should celebrate it more, I suppose, as the ideals that birthed our nation are ideals that I believe we should still hold for our nation.

 

[JonC]

Also - I am not "anti-reformation day." either. While it is an important event and did contribute to Christianity and generate a more clear and correct doctrine in several areas - I simply do not feel the need to celebrate the day (mostly as the Reformation concluded with much to be desired in terms of doctrine). But it certainly does not bother me if others celebrate the day.

 

[preachinjesus]

Also - I am not "anti-reformation day." either. While it is an important event and did contribute to Christianity and generate a more clear and correct doctrine in several areas - I simply do not feel the need to celebrate the day (mostly as the Reformation concluded with much to be desired in terms of doctrine). But it certainly does not bother me if others celebrate the day.

That's what I understood from your post. I completely appreciate your perspective and willingness to voice it. Just because we might disagree (over a relatively minor thing) doesn't mean anyone has reason to think you've not "read up" on stuff. Clearly you're informed.

I enjoy celebrating Reformation Day, but my activities to do so are limited to posting about it, telling people "Happy Reformation Day" and yelling at the local Roman Catholic Church as I drive by...well maybe not the last one.

 

[Luke2427]

Wow Luke – I don’t think that I have seen a post that was entirely composed of unfounded assumptions until this one. Let me help.
Just because I disagree with the Reformation constituting a celebratory day does not mean that I object to others observing Reformation Day. I was surprised that you took my comments to be offering a cause for others not to celebrate the day. But here we go:



False assumption – I have studied Smyth. Additionally, the assumption is not relevant because I do not celebrate “Smythe Day.”





False assumption that when presented two bad options we should choose to honor the lesser of two evils. For example, in terms of Christian liberty and rejection of liturgy Smyth wins hands down. In terms of original sin I’d side closer to Luther. But I do not actually celebrate either man as a personal choice.





False assumption – I have studied the beliefs of the Founding Fathers of America – but I do not look to our Founding Fathers for spiritual guidance or doctrinal authority. So that is not my reason for refusing to celebrate independence day – I observe it as the “birth of our nation” (although I have to admit that that observation is really nothing more than cooking out). I should celebrate it more, I suppose, as the ideals that birthed our nation are ideals that I believe we should still hold for our nation.

So you just don't celebrate anybody, right?

Romans 13:7- Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[JonC]

So you just don't celebrate anybody, right?

Romans 13:7- Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I actually tend not to. I do celebrate my son's birthday (tradition and he's still a child). But I tend to stick with Christmas and Easter (Resurrection Sunday for the PC). Oh, and my anniversary - while not a "person" it is remembering an event that I really don't need to forget if I know what's best for me.

"Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due, custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

I render to them, as men, the honor that I believe is appropriate.

But I doubt that this passage refers to paying tribute to Luther, although I actually do respect the man and his teachings (for a large part, anyway). I actually doubt that the Reformers felt that honor was due them (especially Luther, he doesn't strike me as that kinda fella) - and the reason that I stand in awe of the Reformation is not because of the Reformers themselves but instead that I view God's hand not only in the Reformation but in the work leading up to the Reformation (e.g., Wycliff) and following the Reformation (e.g., the Radical Reformation or Second Front). Observing Reformation Day is not my custom, the custom of my church, or dictated by my conscience. Were I Lutheran, perhaps I'd feel differently. If you feel that you need to observe the day then go ahead - it does not bother me one bit.

Perhaps you would get more of a reaction on this board if you applied Romans 13:7 in a more biblical way and context (perhaps to our own leaders - i.e., the President of the United States and his administration). That'd be a good (although probably painful) discussion.

 

[Salty]

... Oh, and my anniversary - while not a "person" it is remembering an event that I really don't need to forget if I know what's best for me. ...

Well, it appears at least have common sense! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JonC]

Well, it appears at least have common sense! :smilewinkgrin:

Nah…survival instinct :wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

I actually tend not to. I do celebrate my son's birthday (tradition and he's still a child). But I tend to stick with Christmas and Easter (Resurrection Sunday for the PC). Oh, and my anniversary - while not a "person" it is remembering an event that I really don't need to forget if I know what's best for me.

"Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due, custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

I render to them, as men, the honor that I believe is appropriate.

The level that is appropriate for a man who put his life on the line every day for decades to beat back the darkness of Romanism, Popery and Priestcraft is a great deal higher than you seem to be willing to face.

It is common place to enjoy the direct access to God, assurance of salvatoin by grace and not by works today- BECAUSE OF GOD'S HAND ON THAT MAN.

I think you're a nice guy. But I have to tell you. I think its trashy.