On the banks of the river

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Clint, et. al.

Perhaps it would be good to start a thread on the historic role of women in the branches of Baptist churches. I think it would be eddifying to discover the variant thought on this subject. Thoughts?

Jeff.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Agreed, Mr. Weaver. I will post on the new thread soon. - Clint

 

[tyndale1946]

I found a landmark church about 10 miles from my place and will check it out later.

You know what they say curiousity killed the cat... I've been an Old Baptist all my life and have to take a look. Have you ever been to a landmark church for a look see?

Also went to a Primitive Baptist club and gave an invite to those who want to come over and listen and contribute. We shall wait and see... Brother Glen

 

[rlvaughn]

Hey guys (and gals), I have finally made it back from Missouri (with a little excursion up into Iowa & Nebraska just to say I've been there). On the scared issue concerning planes, it's that I'm afraid of heights; although flying in a plane doesn't really scare me. I was just being a little facetious I guess (didn't want you to think I would drive instead of fly solely because I'm poor).

Clint AND Margie, if flattery helps with the interest in Baptist history, here goes again. Bro. Clint, you should point out to us which one is your wife and which is your stepdaughter, since they both look so young!

I quickly read over the multitude of posts since I've been gone, and can't really begin to address them. But let me say this - I am considered (and would consider myself) a Landmark Baptist, if I am allowed to define what I mean by the adjective (which I'll try to come back later and do). Right now I need some sleep! But I will say, that many Primitive Baptists and Landmark Baptists agree in principle (or theory) regarding the origin and history of the church of Jesus Christ. But understand that "Landmark" is an adjective that really only pertains to ecclesiology and actually tells nothing else beyond that concerning the church to which it is applied. It is mostly used in application to refer to missionary Baptists, since the common usage of the term arose within the Southern Baptist Convention in the mid-1800's.

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Robert

Welcome back. There are several items in the Baptist History and in the music ministry folders, I think you will find interesting. When you catch your breath, jump back into the conversation.

Jeff

 

[rlvaughn]

There are so many new posts on the Baptist History forum that my head is swimming (or is it from the sleep deprivation? ). It is good to see the great increase in activity here in the area of Baptist History. I think Clint Kritzer is at least partially responsible for the increase. Thanks, Clint!

First, here are two links of old posts that address the infant/household baptism issue. Maybe these will prove helpful. They are: Household Baptisms and Infant Baptism.

Now, I want to touch on some questions raised by Clint in an earlier post. Quotation marks represents his statements or questions. "I had read on another thread involving our Brother Robert that he subscribes to an assertion that the Baptist faith is traceable to the New Testament. Of course, as a believer that the Baptist faith is a New Testament faith I find this very exciting...I simply am just trying to tie his theory to the facts I already possess." Let me first say that I agree with your statement that I believe the Baptist faith is traceable to the New Testament. But this does not necessarily mean I think it is historically demonstrable. I personally divide between historical issues and theological issues. My belief that the church of Jesus Christ was instituted by Him and has continued to the present day is based on my interpretation of certain Biblical passages rather than my interpretation of history. My main interest is history is curiosity, and the interest in old ways, old times, etc. [I love to hear my Dad explain how they used to do things; how his father did things; how his grandfather did things ]. Conversely, this is not to say that history plays no part in the way I think about these issues. For example, some Landmark brethren believe in a historically demonstrable chain link and also build a very detailed doctrinal list of what it takes to constitute a true church. Yet with facts presentably available to us, it cannot be demonstrated that churches have existed through the ages that have held all of these doctrines. The logical conclusion is that these people actually "unchurch" themselves. Ultimately our Baptist faith is traceable to the New Testament based on and to the extent that we employ the New Testament as our rule of faith and practice. "In stating that Thomas Helwys is not the author of original Baptist doctrine, do you see him as the author of the 'modern' Baptist movement? Did he leave England with the knowledge of the Baptist faith or did he discover it in Holland?" It is my opinion that Helwys and Smyth 'discovered' the Baptist faith from the Continental Anabaptists. The ecclesiology of the English Baptists is not that of English Separatism, but of the Continental Anabaptists. It has also been posited by some historians (Estep, for example) that even the soteriological terminology of the 1644 London Baptist Confession was influenced by the Continental Anabaptists. "Further, does this affect the 'traditional' view of the relationship that we have with the Mennonites or were they Baptistically influenced by an already established faith or, indeed, was their belief system already an established practice." This is cloaked in much more historical darkness, but I do indeed believe they were influenced by already established practice; and do not believe that they arose 'out of thin air'. But here my thinking is much more influenced by my theology than by a clear historical demonstration of their origins. "I expect, sir, that you face many critics in the theory that you support..." Yes, from both directions. "This also brings up another point. By your assertions, we are not by definition Separatist Protestants. Am I correct in this assumption?" Yes, you are correct in your assumption. I do not consider the Baptist faith to be 'Protestant', but preceding it. Those I generally consider are the church traditions that descended from the Reformation line of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox. As such I would also not categorize Mennonites/Amish etc. as Protestants. "...I am having trouble coming up with synonyms for 'assertion' and 'theory'." Be assured, this does not bother me in the least. And, finally, to be sure I speak clearly, when I speak of the Baptist faith, I speak of a theological identity, not the name on church signs or in church constitutions.

On Brother Jeff's quote from Landmark Independent Baptist Church in Archer, FL. I do not personally know Bro. Wilson, but would say that he is well respected and that his site is a good representation of what is believed by the Sovereign Grace version of Landmark Baptists. I would also recommend this site as a good source of historic Baptist writings. The American Baptist Association web site could give you a taste of a highly-modified-Calvinistic and associational flavor of Landmark Baptists.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Mr. Vaughn -
How good to have you back with us safe. I have been collecting a little data for Mr. Weaver's post on Baptist women, but first I wanted to tell you thank you for posting so promptly on my question of Baptist origins. Also, how much I appreciate you citing me singularly for sparking our discussions, but it takes two (in this case, a half dozen) to make a conversation.
This leads me to the topic of this entry, why I use "Mister" in our discussions. If you've read our entries since your departure, you will see that I slip into informality more and more as time goes on. I used the title of "Mister" when we began our discussions because I feel it kept an air of respectability for all of you even had there been a dispute. It's sort of the equivalent of a congressman saying "my distinguished colleague" before a serious beratement, I suppose. I felt it necessary for keeping a distinguished ambience to our thread. As I had mentioned in a previous entry, I had seen many less than respectable, Christian conversations in progress on this board and I did not want a thread that I started disintegrating to a mud-slinging match.
Also, the BB profiles a bare boned to say the least but one item I had not revealed is that the last five years of my high school education occured at Fork Union Military Academy, here in my hometown, where we addressed our peers, at least in class, with a title and surname. It's an old habit but I do not get many complaints. Often, older women from northern states will complain that the term "ma'am" makes them sound old but I explain I address little girls in the same manner. It's as natural as tipping my hat.
In fact, addressing a junior attender of my church by "Miss" or "Mister" saves me the trouble of having to remember their first name. (That's just TERRIBLE, ain't it?)
So, Brother Vaughn, I have explained myself. I did not know you men from Adam when we began this but I have grown in this short time to feel a true brotherhood. I will still slip in and out of "mister" and "brother" but the implication will always be "friend".
Speaking of which, I never thanked Mr. Weaver for stepping up to the plate when someone jumped onto our last thread and attacked the Southern Baptist heritage. I see that he has not been back and I think he was looking to pick a fight. I appreciate Brother Jeff's immediate response to the fellows implications. You may notice, I did not use "Mister" when addressing him. Thanks, Jeff.

I thank God for Brother Robert's safe return

- Clint

One other note, Brother Robert. I have found a local Southern Baptist church in the nearby town of Columbia, VA which tried initiating feetwashing and I am obtaining permission from a near-90-year-old witness of the practice to e-mail her phone number to you.

 

[tyndale1946]

I to welcome Brother Robert back and if you see me not joining in on the conversation on Southern Baptist, it is because I might stick my West Coast foot in my mouth.

I find a lot of people on other sites attacking what you believe and really don't understand what they believe, if this makes any sense.

I yearn to hear the truths as they are in Christ Jesus. Brother Jeff and you have been posting some doctrinally sound hymns of praise and I sure enjoy that. More doctrinally sound hymns as preaching is needed in the church today.

I would like to see a post on the early churches and what were they like. I would like to trace the river from the day of Pentecost to the establishment of the early churches... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Clint

Thanks for the kind words. As for stepping up to the plate; the fellow missed the point, IMO. I usually refrain from commenting on issues relating to another denomination, unless it out of curiosity, or to defend my own.

As for the titles thing, I don't care what you call me as long as its not late for supper.

Jeff

 

[tyndale1946]

Just a note: I started a Hymns and Hymn Story post in the Music Ministry Section. Come visit and leave the hymns you love and the story behind it. I'm like the rest of you brethren many places but I also check here daily... Brother Glen

 

[rlvaughn]

bump