"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

Greetings

How can Jesus do this and yet be the Surety of the Covenant (Heb 7:22)? Your suggestion contradicts the clear teaching of scripture.

Unless you think Jesus is a deficient Surety. Or perhaps you think Jesus is bankrupt. Or perhaps you think Jesus is an unwilling Surety.

What ever reason you pick, you have unwittingly denied the Jesus you claim to worship. No wonder you choose your ID as you did.

Lloyd

 

Hey bmerr

I think you have some facts mixed up.

Gen 15 shows that Abraham believed God and it was counted (imputed) to him for righteousness. This is James 2:23.

Gen 22 is the passage where Abraham demonstrated his faith. This is James 2:21.

Again, you show continued lack of understanding justification by faith that produces sanctified works of obedience. Justification is before God; sanctification is before men.

James was using Abraham as an example of producing works before others. If you pay attention to context, then everything else comes together in the right way.

Lloyd

 

The bible does not have any person judged eternally damned while still living in this time of Grace. "Eternal punishment" awaits the unbeliever. It has not yet been declared "eternal" until death, really not until the Great White Throne Judgment. I was not walking around "eternally punished" before I was saved. I was headed to that judgment but then believed and was born again and then declared "eternally saved".

God Bless!

 

Thanks Stever, that was good.

mman, your argument was very good and did make me think a lot since I saw it yesterday. Steaver said it better then I was going to so I will let it go at that. Again, it was the best argument I have seen to refute eternal being eternal.

DT said: ""In other words, God wanted to see actual obedience and waited for that to declare that Abraham in fact feared Him.""

DT, You are reading the scripture without thinking through what is going on in the story and who God is. We know that God knows the future. He knew what Abraham would do from the moment He conceived the world. God knows all, He knows how many or how few hairs you have on your head. You can't read scripture and ignore the obvious. Do you really believe that God did not know until that moment that Abraham would kill Issac for him? If you do then you and I do not believe in the same God. The God of the Bible is omnipotentent, omnipresent, etc... I wish I could make you see that we can't surprize God by our actions, He knows our heart and He does the justifying, He sees all including the future. That is proven by the fact the future is layed out in Revelations already. When you read the account of Abraham one must have this fact in mind. One thing that is happening is that an angel is the go between in the the account that is written. Perhaps this angel did not know what Abraham would do, but God surely did or He is not God. Or maybe the scripture is written the way it is to emphasize the importance of our actions. Why? because actions are how we show the lost our love for God and our faith in Christ's forgiveness. Actions should always follow Faith because we have had a heart inehancement. When actions don't follow it is a good "sign" that the faith is not real but it is not a certainty because we have an enemy who wants us to be luke warm, so this enemy messes with the believers to cool them off, not to lose their gift of eternal life but to cool the witness so no one gets saved because of them. We will fail in our faith, Peter did. we will doubt in our faith, Thomas did. We may get angry and lose Christian friends, Paul did. We may get beat up and lose heart for a time, Job did. Ponder what I said for awhile. Thanks for reading.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Ultimately, what we have is a promise of eternal life. Yes, there is a sense in which that eternal life begins on this earth, as several passages point out, yet there are other passages that make it clear that we have a hope or promise of eternal life. The converse is true with the unsaved, they have a promise of eternal destruction. Yet, while on this earth, they, in one sense, are already abiding in death (I Jn 3:14 and others).

Let's look at a few passages:

Matt 25:46, And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

At the judgment, the righteous will go INTO eternal life while the wicked will go INTO eternal punishment.

Once there, it is eternal.

Mark 10:30, "who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life."

Notice, the eternal life is in the age to come.

Titus 1:2, "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began"

We don't have eternal life but the "hope" of eternal life.

I John 2:24-25, Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us--eternal life.

Here is a conditional, IF/THEN statement with a promise of eternal life.

James points out, James 1:14-15 "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

James is talking to Christians. The unsaved are already dead. Only those with life can sin so as to die.

If there were any doubt as to what James was talking about, he addresses it again at the close of the book, James 5:19-20 "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Here is a Christian brother caught up in sin and who has wandered from the truth and is bound for death. His final sentence will be eternal death, unless someone brings him back, then his sentence at judgment will be eternal life.

It's no wonder that Paul said, "for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

 

Either you have been given the gift of eternal life or you remain lost. Which is it? Can you explain what it means to be born again? Does the Scripture say that you are given eternal life at your rebirth?

God Bless!

 

If this were the correct interpretation, then somebody would get God's glory for saving the man eternally. Eternal Salvation belongs to Christ alone!

You said "his final sentence will be eternal death". Where is that stated in the passage? Do not go beyond what is written and things will become more clear.

God Bless!

 

Briguy,

Also as a follow up to the previous post, consider Rom 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

If you live according to the flesh, you will die. Even though you are not eternally dead yet, you will be if you continue. The converse is also true, if you live according to the Spirit, you will live. Even though you are not eternally alive yet, you will be if you continue.

Paul also restates this in Gal 6:7-8, "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

We will reap 'eternal life' if we don't give up doing good. What if we DO give up? He plainly tells us, don't be deceived, if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption.

When can we reap eternal life? The instant we sow to the Spirit? No, that's not what this verse teaches. It plainly tells us we will reap "in due season" and only if we don't give up.

Another clear passage is II Pet 2:20-22, For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

This one needs no explainations. It truly requires help to misunderstand this plain teaching.

Is is possible to escape the defilements of the world through knowing Jesus and later become even more entangled than you were to begin with?

If OSAS were true, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for this statement to be true: "it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them".

That old sow that was washed clean is back in the mud, even dirtier than before it was washed.

You see, I think OSAS is a logical conclusion of "saved by faith (belief) only". Therefore, folks want to hold on to OSAS at all cost, or their entire belief system will crumble.

That is exactly what happened to a friend of mine. He was baptist and believe in OSAS. Then certain passages didn't seem to fit. He did not continue to rationalize and force them to fit, but he started an all out personal study on the subject. No one was influencing him in his study, it was a personal study, only using the bible. He came up with over 100 verses that refuted OSAS. He showed the list to his "pastor" and after the "pastor" had time to study the list, he would not discuss it with my friend. Through his own personal study of the bible, he changed what he believed on this subject. That lead to further studies on other topics.

I've seen it on this board and so have you. People want to win the argument at all costs, regardless of what the truth is. You don't seem to be that way. Thanks.

 

If this were the correct interpretation, then somebody would get God's glory for saving the man eternally. Eternal Salvation belongs to Christ alone!

You said "his final sentence will be eternal death". Where is that stated in the passage? Do not go beyond what is written and things will become more clear.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I can only think of two choices:

1) Eternal death
2) Physical death

Since it cannot be talking about Physical death, it must be talking about eternal death.

Surely you don't think he is talking about physical death, do you?

 

Either you have been given the gift of eternal life or you remain lost. Which is it? Can you explain what it means to be born again? Does the Scripture say that you are given eternal life at your rebirth?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]You are given the promise of eternal life, but it is conditional, you will reap (eternal life) if you faint not (Gal 6:7-8).

 

There is no such thing as a conditional gift.
"The gift of God is eternal life" (Rom.6:23).
I have never put any conditions on the gifts that I have bestowed upon my children.
My Heavenly Father is greater than I. He would never take back or put conditions on a gift. Otherwise the gift would no longer be a gift. It is a contradiction of terms. You cannot have a conditional gift. Then it becomes a work to be earned, and Jesus becomes a liar.
Eternal has the meaning of eternal. Once taken away or stopped it no longer is eternal; it is temporary. Again Jesus becomes a liar. How can one delight in inferring that Christ is a liar. Does he not mean what he says. The gift of God is eternal life. Does it not mean what it says?
DHK

 

Yes, it is a gift, a gift that will be given. You are absolutely right, once given, it is unconditional and will never be revoked.

Rom 2:5-8 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Clearly, he will give eternal life on judgment day.

Yes, it is a gift that is not earned, but not given until "the day" of God's judgment.

 

Why can't it be physical death?

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthyily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." (1 Cor 11:29-31)

Are these brothers also in eternal punishment? Noticed they were "judged" by God. Their eternal status as children was not in question. They were judged with chastisement from God for doing wrong and some were even put to sleep. Teach those brothers who are in error the right ways of God and you will cover a multitude of sins and could even save a soul from death.

God Bless!

 

These words are actually correct. Two things must be clarified though. 1) What is the gift ? 2) When is it given?

Jesus said..."If thou knewest the gift of God , and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ." (John 4:10)

You cannot deny that the gift of God is living water .

It does not say " a " gift, it says " the " gift a God. Perfectly distinguished as something very important and singled out by Jesus Christ as "the gift" among all gifts.

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.
He that believeth on me , as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ". (John 7:37-38).

As you can see, this happens upon belief, not at a later judgment.

Now thank God that John explains what this means otherwise folks would attempt to explain it away as something that occurs at a future judgment, after death or something...

He goes on... "( But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should recieve: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified .) (John 7:39)

You cannot deny that the living water that Jesus spoke of was the Holy Ghost .

..." the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". (Romans 6:23)

Jesus Christ our Lord has said that the gift of God is living water .

Jesus Christ our Lord said that the living water is the Holy Ghost .

Jesus Christ our Lord said that those who believe will recieve the gift of God . The gift of God is living water. Living water is the Holy Spirit. The gift of God is eternal life. Eternal life is through Jesus Christ our Lord who gives us the Holy Spirit which is the living water. The living water is the eternal life because it is of Jesus Christ who is Eternal life.

Once given, it is as you said, unconditional and will never be revoked.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

" Now " not later!

"For ye have not recieved the spirit of bondage again to fear ; but ye have recieved the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father."

No fear having the Spirit of Christ . I bet you do not have any fear of actually losing your salvation even though you cannot reconcile the scriptures against that notion.

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

" Are " not "will be".

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life ". (John 4:14)

Living water =everlasting life

Living water is given upon belief

Living water is the gift of God.

Living water is the Holy Ghost

Living water is eternal life.


Do you have this living water mman?

God Bless!

 

With that kind of logic available, it is a wonder there aren't more believers. Just by reading it you can feel the truth of it.

 

mman,

Amen. I agree all what you saying of verses.

I am baptist.

I used to believe in security salvation for many years, because of what baptist believes.

Over 90% of independent baptist churches teaching on security salvation in America today.

Whilst myself was a young Christian in early 1990's, I thought baptist churches preaching and teaching the truths from the Bible. During in that period, I do not really knowledge deep in God's Word. I still learning God's Word throughout my young Christian life.

At first, I was used to believe in pretrib rapture. Because pretribulation depends on security salvation so heavily. One day, my friends showed me of 2 Thess. 2:1-3. That passage caused me left pretrib camp. Also, they showed me of Matt. 24:29-31 too.

I realized Rev. 13:7, 10 telling us, that the Antichrist will persecute against Christians. Rev. 13:9-18 telling us a serious warning of conditional. If any person worship or receive the mark of beast, will cast away into everlasting fire.

Can a Christian be deceived? Yes, according in Matthew 24:24.

Possible for a Christian to worship or receive the mark of beast, to be deceived, go to everlasting fire.

Rev. 14:9-11 tell the same as Rev. 13:9-18.

In 1992, I believed two things that a Christian could lose salvation - worship or receive the mark; or take God's Word away, so, take person's name out of the book(Rev. 22:19).

Later in 2000. I studied on Matthew chapter 24 and 25 about second coming. Matthew 25:26-30 is the mostly disturb me for a long time. I realized, that many baptist pastors do not preaching on Matt. 25:26-30 to the congregation.

Funny, I notice some baptist pastors did teaching or preaching to people about talents of Matthew 25. But, they skipped verse 30. Why?

Matt. 25:30 tells us very clear, that a lazy servant will be cast away into outer darkness is eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:26-30 do not support security salvation or unconditional salvation.

In year 2003, I finally decided left security salvation camp, rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

There are so much overwhelming evidences in the Bible telling us of condition salvation with warnings.

Revelation chapter 2 and 3 talk LOT about conditional with warnings. No way that we can afford to ignore them. We must take heed what Christ saying, and obey His word.

Later this week, I will post more to discuss on verses on conditional salvation with warnings.

mman, KEEP IT UP!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Just quickly, There are a couple things on james 5: 19 and 20. I was looking for a deep answer on these verses when the answer was right there. The audience of James, a jewish man were other jewish folks, many but not all of whom were saved. V. 19 and 20 simply say what they say. If there was any of his audience that were not saved the others had an obligation to try and convert him and save his soul from death. The rendering of the the verse can be tricky to read. If you err from the truth it does not mean you had the truth it means you do not have the truth. In other words "when it comes to the truth you my friend are in error". There are some other aspects to this but I believe that is enough to get rid of these verses as proof against OSAS.

In Christ,
Brian

 

You admit the rendering of these verses can be tricky. Are you basically saying, "These verses don't really mean what they say?"

Take a closer look.

James 5:7 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord... 8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand...11 we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.


12But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation. 13Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.


19My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

How would it be possible to bring back a sinner? Bring back to what? The truth from which they wandered.

The "among you" is certainly among the christians. Yes, they were jewish christian. James addressed the book to spiritual Israel, or the twelve tribes that were scattered abroad.

Later in verse 12 of chapter 1, he says, "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."

What happens if he doesn't remain steadfast? If he does, what is his reward? He is talking to Christians.

James time and time again refers to his brothers and "any among you".

Even if you say many were saved but not all, that does not help your cause. Just think about that for a second. James did not limit his statement to the unsaved, but to anyone among you.

He says "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders". How could the anyone only apply to the "unsaved"? Do you really think he meant, "My non brothers who are unsaved, if anyone of you unsaved Jews wanders from the truth, and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Brings back to what, if his original condition was an unsaved Jew?

Read all of James and try to fit, unsaved Jew, where ever he is talking to them, and see how that fits. Then, go back, and insert Christian, and see how that fits.

Without any agendas, forget all you know about the bible and read the book of James. What is James trying to tell us? James does not contradict any other book. What you read will be in perfect harmony with the rest of scripture.

 

mman, I see the problem now. I am not sure what interpretation you are reading but maybe the writers had an agenda. The verses read very different in the KJV.

James 5:
[17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
[18] And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
[19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
[20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

These verses are telling us that our prayer, as saved people of God, are powerful. James, who wrote his whole book on the importance of deeds brings home the point in the end by the ultimate result of our works, people getting saved.

Brethern, is a generic term and certainly James would have considered those of his heritage as his brethren. My pastor will say "Beloved" while addressing us (the congregation) and then say if you don't know Christ you nee to turn to Him (or something like that - just trying to make a point) He understands that in any group of people in a church, some may not be saved, James understood this as well. Therefore Brethern, as he used it, encompasses the group as a whole. I believe that would satisfy your need to insert Christian for Brethren. Sometimes which Bible we look at can make all the difference. Your version may be a paraphrase, like the NIV, which can lead to trouble in verses like these. Thanks for your good, thought provoking posts. I will tell you another thing I learned just for fun. Some earlier versions have translated the verse so that the one who did the converting "saved his own" soul from death. Not the one converted but the one doing the converting. That opens a whole different can of worms. The bottom line is that this verse by far is not the iron clad case against OSAS that you thought or believe it to be. I am enjoying this. To make it fair lets do one verse at a time back and forth. You give me another iron clad verse and I will melt it(he he) and then I will give you a verse from my perspective (which will stump you) and so on. I will let you go first. Remember, one verse at a time. Thanks!

In Christ, the anchor of my soul,
Brian