"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

[BobRyan]

In Lloyd's endless quest to say that "he can read" he posts something like this (ten times)

Rom 3:24; Pres Pass Ptcp; Being justified freely by his grace through Jesus’ redemption.

..

Ok fine - QOUTE the statement that I MAKE that SHOWS me to differ with this COMMON GROUND!

In other words SHOW that you are DOING SOMETHING!

Let me guess -- you have NOTHING to SHOW?

How "unnexpected"

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Let's stop the rabbit trail run and hide tactic. Let's talk one Bible verse. You pick it.

Of course, in agreeing to this, you throw away your only tool. RUNNING!

Perhaps you want one of the Hebrew warnings! I'd love to eat you up there. Yeah! Let's stick with the Book of Hebrews and use no quote from any other book.

Ok. It's only a pipe dream for me. Why you agree to anything that prevents you from running away from the truth.

Well, thanks for the admission of errancy.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Ok fine - QOUTE the statement that I MAKE that SHOWS me to differ with this COMMON GROUND!

COMMON GROUND I assume to be the Bible! But it could also be the truth of the lexical evidences - same end conclusion tho.

Why would you hang onto a known system that contradicts the Bible?

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

More cut and paste. Where is the example of one who is successful? Roman 3:19 (CONTEXT) shows that all will be condemned.

Again, you contradict Bible and go blissfully pasting more error.
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

I am so convinced that your wrong view of Rom 2 is wrong that I went looking through scholarly journals. Guess what! I found some good stuff for you.

Consider the following.

The Jews looked down on the Gentiles partly because they did not have the revelation of God’s will in the Mosaic Law. But, as Paul pointed out, there are moral Gentiles who do by nature things required by the Law. Such persons show that the Law is not to be found only on tablets of stone and included in the writings of Moses; it is also inscribed in their hearts and is reflected in their actions, consciences, and thoughts. The Law given to Israel is in reality only a specific statement of God’s moral and spiritual requirements for everyone. Moral Gentiles by their actions show that the requirements (lit., “the work”) of the Law are written on their hearts. This is confirmed by their consciences, the faculty within human beings that evaluates their actions, along with their thoughts that either accuse or excuse them of sin. This is why Paul called such Gentiles a law for themselves (v. 14).[1]

Verse 15 continues the thought of the preceding verse. The fact of conscience even among Gentiles indicates the existence of law and a measure of revelation from God. The article is used to call special attention to the modifier. Paul, therefore, has established his case for a ground of judgment of the Gentiles. The judgment will be deferred until the day of judgment according to vs. 16. The judgment will be based on such revelation as God has given the Gentiles.[fn2] The Jew to whom more light was given will be subject to the greater condemnation.[fm3]

The third witness to God and His judgments was that of the conscience which accuses or excuses one concerning right and wrong. Even before written revelation condemned sin, the Gentiles possessed this inner monitor of the soul which convicted them of sin (Rom 2:14–15). Therefore through creation, tradition, and the voice of conscience the Gentiles knew of God and His ways, and any turning from this truth left them without excuse.[fn4]

Romans 2:13 is not an explanation of how to be justified, but a standard to which none will attain, as evidenced by Paul’s argument in 3:1–20. He rejects this interpretation of 2:13 as “hypothetical” without adequate reason.[fn5]

Case was closed. Note that this is just the final words at the gravesight.
Lloyd

[fn1] Walvoord, J. F. 1983-c1985. The Bible knowledge commentary: An exposition of the scriptures (Ro 2:14). Victor Books: Wheaton, IL
pfn2] John F. Walvoord, “Law in the Epistle to the Romans Part 1,” BSac 94:373 (Jan 37): 26.
[fn3] Lewis Sperry Chafer. “Part 3: Biblical Theism The Attributes of God (Concluded),” BSac 96:381 (Jan 39): 11.
[fn4] Charles Henry Murphy, “God and the Gentiles Part 1,” BSac 109:436 (Oct 52): 367.
[fn5] Robert Oliver, Review of D. B. Garlington, “The Obedience of Faith in the Letter to the Romans. Part II: The Obedience of Faith and Judgment by Works,” Westminster Theological Journal 53 1991, 47–72 in JOTGES 4:2 (Aut 91): 86.


P.S. This comes from the Theological Journal Library CD version 5. I found 696 occurences of Rom 2:14 in 250 years of Journals.

P.S.S. I did it in WORD and saved it for future cut and paste. Whee!!!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ascund:
[QB] Hey Bob

Let's stop the rabbit trail run and hide tactic.

Let's talk one Bible verse. You pick it.

Ok - Matt 18.

Do you want me to repost that?

I have already posted the "eternal life future" post and you seem to have agreed to what was posted (albeit with a lot of complaining)

So I "guess" we are ok on that part.

I am happy to do something with Roamns 2 since you love to avoid it -- but that does not seem right for the OP subject title of this thread.

Just let me know if you need to see the text of MAtt 18 "again".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

You don't have any points. A bunch of verses yanked out of context and strung together aren't a credible argument for anything.

I just blew your Rom 2 argument clear into tombstone territory.

All you can do is run to another verse.

But why not. You never had the truth to begin with.

Run Bob Run
See Bob run.

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Those who deny OSAS deny God. I love it. Look at your unanswered stuff here God-denier.


God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.

Everywhere you turn in God's Word, you see God's power, His faithfulness, and His protective love.

You would sacrifice all of this for your Christ-denying human-centered self-righteous obedience

Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ascund:

I am so convinced that your wrong view of Rom 2 is wrong that I went looking through scholarly journals.

Good idea. But remember you have to actually "exegete" the actual TEXT that is so displeasing to you to make progress. Just piling opinion on text-devoid-opinion wont work.

And the Romans 2 point does not actually address the issue of "Falling from Grace" or "Forgiveness revoked" so I am not sure how you are working your view of OSAS such that you need to deny Romans 2 in the process.

If you can find a way to drag Romans 2 in (by claiming that we don't DO anything to be lost for example -- as an argument for OSAS) then I am happy to re-post the TEXT of ROMANS 2 "again".

Lloyd

Consider the following.

The Jews looked down on the Gentiles partly because they did not have the revelation of God’s will in the Mosaic Law.

Yeah - this is the part we all agree to -

But, as Paul pointed out, there are moral Gentiles who do by nature things required by the Law. [fn1]

Actually he says MORE Than that. He says that "ACCORDING TO HIS GOSPEL" God will JUDGE as the Romans 2 chapter shows -- and that there are Gentiles WITHOUT access to scripture that in fact are showing the New Covenant promise of the "Works of the Law written on the heart".

As Paul points out in the last half of Romans 2 regarding the gentiles. That WORK done ON THE HEART - is done ONLY by the Holy Spirit for "HE is a Jew who is one INWARDLY and circumcision is that which is done on the HEART by the Holy Spirit".

Such persons show that the Law is not to be found only on tablets of stone and included in the writings of Moses; it is also inscribed in their hearts and is reflected in their actions, consciences, and thoughts. [fn1]

Yep! That would be the New Covenant!

The Law given to Israel is in reality only a specific statement of God’s moral and spiritual requirements for everyone.

Moral Gentiles by their actions show that the requirements (lit., “the work”) of the Law are written on their hearts. This is confirmed by their consciences, the faculty within human beings that evaluates their actions, along with their thoughts that either accuse or excuse them of sin. This is why Paul called such Gentiles a law for themselves (v. 14).[1]

Verse 15 continues the thought of the preceding verse. The fact of conscience even among Gentiles indicates the existence of law and a measure of revelation from God. The article is used to call special attention to the modifier. Paul, therefore, has established his case for a ground of judgment of the Gentiles. The judgment will be deferred until the day of judgment according to vs. 16. The judgment will be based on such revelation as God has given the Gentiles.[fn2]


[fn1] Walvoord, J. F. 1983-c1985. The Bible knowledge commentary: An exposition of the scriptures (Ro 2:14). Victor Books: Wheaton, IL

[fn2] John F. Walvoord, “Law in the Epistle to the Romans Part 1,” BSac 94:373 (Jan 37): 26.
[fn3] Lewis Sperry Chafer. “Part 3: Biblical Theism The Attributes of God (Concluded),” BSac 96:381 (Jan 39): 11.

P.S. This comes from the Theological Journal Library CD version 5. I found 696 occurences of Rom 2:14 in 250 years of Journals.

This is perfect. Please validate that the summary quote I have given is in fact aligned with the sources correctly.

I need this as insert into my comments on Romans 2.

Many thanks!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ascund:
[QB]
You don't have any points. A bunch of verses yanked out of...

<obligatory rant delete... nothing of substance left in the post>

Well there is another thought-devoid post to toss aside.

Why do you do that Lloyd?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ascund:

Those who deny OSAS deny God. I love it. Look at your unanswered stuff here God-denier.


God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).


God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).

#1. WE have not reached glorification. This is "admitted" to EVEN by Calvinists - who are typically in the dark on almost every thing else.

Col 3:1-4 makes the point clearly -- and your reference to Romans 8 is NOT a QUOTE but a SPIN attached to a text! (So nothing to respond to).

#2. Your reference to John 10 IS ALSO not a quote but rather a spin - based on a snippet.

(So nothing to respond to as you make NO attempt to actually QUOTE a block of text from John 10 and then DO SOMETHING with what IT SAYS)

Get it?

As long as you "do more of the same" you are not actually making your point.

Try following my example (I give the ENTIRE CHAPTER) in some cases showing how the whole thing fits together. Your NON-QUOTE but SPIN snippets are hardly making a point at all.

Pick a few and then make your stand there AS IF you think you had a case.

In the meant time the "forgiveness revoked example" that goes on and on for blocks at a time in MAtt 18 will be our "focus".

Enjoy!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

==========================================================

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.


Is God our Master? –

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Colossians 4:1
[ Fellow Workers ] Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.


Was Christ wrong to cast the People of God in the role of “servants”??
Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Colossians 4:7
As to all my affairs, Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful servant and fellow bond-servant in the Lord, will bring you information.
1 Timothy 4:6
[ A Good Minister's Discipline ] In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
2 Timothy 2:24
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2 Timothy 2:23-25 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)
Titus 1:1
[ Salutation ] Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
James 1:1
[ Testing Your Faith ] James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2 Peter 1:1
[ Growth in Christian Virtue ] Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
Jude 1:1
[ The Warnings of History to the Ungodly ] Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:1
[ The Revelation of Jesus Christ ] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John

Revelation 6:11
And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Revelation 15:3
And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, " Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty;Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
Revelation 15:2-4 (in Context) Revelation 15 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Revelation 22:3
There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Revelation 22:6
And he said to me, " These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

Revelation 22:9
But he said to me, "Do not do that I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."

What is the “Kingdom of Heaven” mentioned in Matt 18:23? Is it really the “Gospel”?

"Kingdom of heaven" is a specific reference to the Gospel. (Notice that in MAtt 3:2 and 4:17 Christ and John are both preaching about the Kingdom of heaven.) In fact it is called "The Gospel of the Kingdom" Matt 4:23 the same chapter that we find Christ taking up the message of John the Baptizer - Matt 4:17 from Matt 3:2.

In the Gospel of Matthew it is that same "Gospel of the kingdom" that has to be preached into all the world AND THEN shall the end come Matt 24.

In ALL of Matt - the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" refers to the Gospel, to heaven, to eternal spiritual reality in God's kingdom.

Christ speaks of "entering the Kingdom" of heaven is future (at the 2nd coming) Matt 5:20 7:21 but in a sense it is also at the point of conversion - Matt 23:13.
So then "forgiveness" in the "Kingdom of heaven" is "granted by our great King" whom we serve. (As Paul points out his own servanthood to Christ - repeatedly).

It is out of that Gospel-based forgiveness first given to us that we forgive others.

This is the ONLY basis for our goodness to others in "the kingdom of heaven" because we are not "naturally good" as sinful humans apart from the new birth and Christ dwelling IN us by faith.

 

[ascund]

But Bob

Good idea. But remember you have to actually "exegete" the actual TEXT that is so displeasing to you to make progress. Just piling opinion on text-devoid-opinion wont work.

You do this all the time. Look at your last strings of violent abuse of scripture. At least I've repeatedly blasted your error on Rom 2 and many others.

You should at least try to "exegete" one of God's promises. Earlier you boasted big things in this area. Put up!

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

You botched context - yet again! Don't you get tired of this abuse of God's Word? Regarding Matt 18: 21-35 (Luke 19:11-27) consider this.

The parable shows the initial forgiveness that every believer has “in Christ.” The master of the parable forgave the servant a multi-billion debt. This illustrates the believer’s initial and positional forgiveness. The Bible is clear that at the moment we believe in Christ, we are totally forgiven in terms of our position as eternal children of God.
__In Christ we have…the forgiveness of sins (Col 1:14).
__God has forgiven you ALL trespasses (Col 2:13-14).

But positional forgiveness does not mean that we always are in fellowship with God. The disobedient servant received temporal punishment for his failure to forgive another servant. Forgiven people need forgiveness in order to remain in fellowship with God.

The NSNS heresy ignores context – again! Jesus presented this parable as a response to Peter’s question regarding the number of times that he should forgive a brother. Jesus links His temporal present forgiveness of the believer’s confessional requests with the forgiveness of others.
This does not make the eternal forgiveness of sins and destiny conditional upon fickle human capacity to forgive others. God’s word teaches that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God (Rom 8:39). Although nothing can sever God’s child from this so great love, sin inhibits fellowship. Sin “vitiates” service. Thus, the confession of sin is crucial to the close walk of fellowship with Jesus.

God’s forgiveness of sins begun in past salvation is not dependent upon the present confession of sins. But God’s present salvation forgiveness of sins is dependent upon the believer’s forgiveness of others. Jesus is serious about loving our enemies.

Please note that past salvation determines eternal destiny while present salvation is the measure of a believer’s victory over the power of sin.

UR wrong again - as always!

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally botched by BobRyan:
#1. WE have not reached glorification. This is "admitted" to EVEN by Calvinists - who are typically in the dark on almost every thing else.

You messed up Roman 8 - again. Don't you ever get tired of ignoring context?

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? … 37 in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Salvation is described using tenses. Past salvation happened at the moment of faith (also called justification) when the believer was delivered from the penalty of sin. Present salvation is current deliverance from the power of sin. Future salvation will be deliverance from the every aspect of sin at the final resurrection.

The underlying grammar of the verbs is quite revealing. First, the word “persuaded” is in the Greek Perfect Tense. The basic explanation of this tense is that it denotes an action that was brought to completion and whose effects are felt in the present. Blass, Debrunner & Funk describe it as the combination of the present and aorist “in that it denotes the continuance of completed action.” Because of the idea of a completed action, it is often used to express great theological truths. Paul’s persuasion is certain and eternal!

Next, the words “things present” are also from a Greek Perfect Tense verb. But this Greek verb customarily takes the Perfect Tense showing that the past act of a certain standing is overcome by the vividness of the present reality. The present standing is one of security. Finally, the words shall be able are a future tense verb. Paul rejects any and every option that could be put forth to separate us from God. Paul is completely persuaded in three tenses: the perfect past, the perfect present, and the certain future.

Romans 6 focuses on our past showing our union with the crucified Christ. Romans 7 focuses on our present showing our present struggle against sin while we are trusting in Christ. Romans 8 focuses on our certain yet future glorification with Christ. Chapter 8 begins with God’s declaration of “no condemnation for believers and ends with Paul’s picture of the plan of redemption as an unbreakable chain.

This chain extends into the timeless past from before the foundation of the world to God’s sovereign election based on His divine foreknowledge (Rom 8:29, 2 Thes 2:13, 1 Pet 1:2). It also extends into the timeless future of eternity to our imperishable, undefiled and unfading inheritance (1 Pet 1:5) and glorification (Rom 8:30). God’s power MILITANTLY keeps the reservation (1 Pet 1:5). The ends of this unbreakable chain are firmly anchored in God. So are the links in between.

Although context and scripture should adequately declare the eternal security of future glorification, note that ALL of the verbs in Rom 8:30 are aorist (past tense) verbs: predestinated, called, justified, & glorified. So unbreakable is the chain that the last link of in the chain is presented as grammatically certain as the other historic links in the chain. The future act of glorification is so certain that it is viewed as an accomplished historic fact!

The NSN view cleverly tries to find a loophole in Paul’s comprehensive list by redefining the natural flow of the context. They think they have found it in the fact that Paul does not specifically mention how individual believers themselves might be able to do what no outside force can do. The NSNS message is that salvation is a breakable chain. Although both ends are securely attached, the center links must be held together by human faithfulness and endurance.
But scripture is clear that believers are God’s possessions. Eph 1:14 clearly says that believers are God’s purchased possession. God’s Spirit even puts the mark of ownership on every believer (Eph 1:13). Acts 20:28 also declares that Christ purchased His Church with His own blood. How is it that the possession can unbuy itself? How is it that the possession can slip away from its owner? Does the NSNS view really think that God isn’t aware of His possessions such that apostasy would remove it? If so, then the NSNS heresy has a blasphemous view of God.
Jesus, the Great Shepherd, knows all that are His (John 10). The weakest sheep in the fold is perfectly kept by the Good Shepherd. If the sheep runs away, then the Good Shepherd brings it back (Luke 15:4-6)! A sheep cannot even lose itself in spite of itself. Does the NSNS view really think that a sheep can wantonly get away from Jesus? If so, then the NSNS heresy has a blasphemous view of Jesus.

The Spirit seals every believer with His mark (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30) which are the seals of the majestic omnipotent God. Who does the NSNS view think can undo God’s seal? But every NSNS Sadvocate freely claims that we fickle humans can go toe to toe with the Creator of the Universe and break His seal of ownership through apostasy, backsliding and willful sin. It is the clear teaching of scripture that no one on/under earth or in heaven (except Jesus that is) was able to break any of God’s seals (Rev 5:3). OSAS affirms that the Spirit’s seal is good until the Day of Redemption (Eph 4:30).

The NSNS view clearly teaches a faulty view of salvation. Salvation has two parallel paths: justification and sanctification. Both need to be acknowledged. It is one of the gravest theological errors to confuse or conflate these two paths.

First, salvation is by faith alone. At that moment a sinner: is transformed into a new creature, receives Christ’s righteousness, is translated into the Kingdom of Christ, is sealed and indwelled by the Holy Spirit, is adopted into God’s Family and is seated at God’s right hand. Jesus is our High Priest, Surety and Mediator of the New Covenant. Whenever the devil might like to accuse us, Jesus is also our Advocate and Judge (a very biased courtroom in our favor). If we should ever think about leaving the faith and wandering like a stupid sheep, Jesus our Shepherd finds us and brings us back. God is so faithful to His covenantal promises that we cannot leave the new covenant provisions even if we willfully apostatize.

Second, at the moment of faith (justification) the believer also begins the sanctification process and enters into warfare with the flesh, the world, and the devil. The method of warfare is spiritual – not fleshly. The only provision for victory in this three-fold conflict is a simple confidence in God’s power. Faith overcomes the world (1 John 5:4) and has overcome the world (1 John 4:4). The doctrine of rewards is a needed counterpart to the doctrine of grace. God is a Rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Heb 11:6). Good works are an expression of faith - not the basis of either faith or salvation.

The NSNS view greatly errors by making works (measured negatively by the presence of sin) a standard of salvation (measured negatively by the denial of salvation). Often times the measure of good works is a denial of sin. Sin is then made to be the litmus test for salvation. The NSNS confusion of basic biblical concepts is rather hideous. The biblical view of good works is that they are a part of the normal Christian growth process of sanctification leading to rewards. Good works have nothing to do with salvation.

The chapter began with “no condemnation” and ends by declaring “no separation.” In between is the unbreakable chain. Where in here is there room in the contextual thought flow for such nonsense that one could lose their eternal security?

I'm pitching a shutout!
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Jey Bob

Here is another botched exegesis. You simply cannot make a cavalier dismissal of a text you don't like. Where's the beef?

John 10:28-30

God uses the most powerful Greek constructs to emphasize the impossibility of about getting out (or even thinking about getting out) of His hands.

The NSNS view emphasizes the wrong thing. The NSNS view is driven by their philosophy to force this text to agree with their system rather than using this text as the basis of a biblical system. Their approach is to use only a part of the passage and ignore the total context. The NSNS view chooses to emphasize

__the present tense verbs of hearing and knowing in verse 27a,
__eternal life never ceases; but we might not apprehend it in verse 28a,
__no one is able to steal (snatch) from God verses 28c & 29.

If this is all we had, they would have a strong case. Any combination of the above three arguments can be found in any typical NSNS writing. Any of the above three arguments is rather persuasive especially when considered in isolation.

But I have never yet read an NSNS article that fully integrates the fact that believers “shall never perish.” I’ve read articles where this fact is mentioned in passing as they rush to one of the other three arguments. Their explanations are variations of letting context explain context. This sounds really good for it is an accepted hermeneutic guideline. However, the choice of context destroys the harmonization principle provided in the introduction. The NSNS view takes sanctification verses out of context and forces them into a description of justification. This is an unholy application of letting context explain context. It is diabolically deceptive. But it works with untold millions of biblically ignorant Christians.

For example, they could say:
There is another side to the coin of salvation. There also appear to be warnings that Christians can fall from the grace of God. The NSNS view errs in making sanctification primary “for salvation’s sake.” We have eternal life now only as a promise or hope. Eternal life is made contingent on works of dependability and faithfulness.

Each of these representative NSNS responses deceptively confuses sanctification issues with justification. There is no other side to the coin of salvation; but sanctification is a parallel and distinct concept. Robertson is right because he addresses justification. Endurance to the end is an unrelated sanctification issue. Eternal life is secure in our position in Christ by faith; dependability and faithfulness lead to heavenly rewards – not a heaven/hell destiny decision.
The NSNS view teaches that we must prove ourselves worthy of Christ’s Cross and God’s family love before He will officially change our promised eternal life into the official confirmation at the end of life. How horrible! No one is able to do this perfectly!

Instead of this deception that forces the believer’s eyes to sanctification issues, we should look at the force of the security of our position in Christ; we shall never perish! Verse 27 has description applicable only to believers. They hear, believe and follow Jesus. He knows them. These verses are present tense not because they are dealing with justification but because they are dealing with sanctification. They are general descriptions applicable to all believers – even the sinning ones (which is all of us).

Verse 28 discusses eternal life. As soon as Jesus shifts to this topic, His words change in nature and force. But we have to be able to read and understand more than the first month of beginning Greek to understand this.


Grammar: The double negative with subjunctive.
The NSNS view shows a blatant disregard for proper Greek exegesis. This is due, in part, from using scripture to support preset dogmatic views rather than using scripture to shape dogmatic views.

Although there is ample wiggle room for the present tense there is more in the context that needs to be mentioned. Only those with less than first year Greek stop this investigation with the present tense. Most Arminians fail to mention ou me; apoloontai (they shall never perish). This phrase uses a double negative and the aorist subjunctive which means that when they are used together it is the most emphatic denial that the Greek can use.

First, the double negative ou me is used to highlight or underscore the impossibility of the stated action occurring.

“The combination of the double negative occurs 96 times. With the light that the papyri have thrown upon this doubling of the negatives we can now say unreservedly that the negatives were doubled for the purpose of stating denials or prohibitions emphatically. … people used the doubling of negatives for making categorical and emphatic denials.” The double negative stresses the total absence of what it negates.

Second, while the simple present mood denotes reality the simple subjunctive mood denotes a step away from reality into probability. While the negative of the present denies reality, the negative of the subjunctive denies even a step away from reality. Together, the double negative with the aorist subjunctive has the force of a categorical and emphatic denial. Wallace says that ou me with the subjunctive “rules out even the idea as being a possibility.”

The Greek language is doing everything possible to make a categorical timeless denial that one can get out of Jesus’ hand. Not only can one never again perish, you can’t even think about it! How much clearer does it have to be!!

If you look at the total context, you’ll not be deceived by partial explanations. Greek knowledge can really help differentiate between right and wrong – if one’s personal dogma does not interfere.

It's a shutout for certain - but I can't figure out a good analogy. We are way past football or basketball scores!

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Well there is another thought-devoid post to toss aside.

Why do you do that Lloyd?[/quote}

Well I figure since you do it so often, you might like discussing on this level. Just trying to look you in the eye. How low do I have to go?

Ok. I'll stand up. You'll have to come up to my level. Haven't you noticed the detailed exegesis my last posts have been??

Everything you write, I have an answer from CONTEXT.

Lloyd

 

[Briguy]

Hey Guys, don't lose your Christ-like behavior whether debating over the very words of God. No one can win in this type of exchange. I fear no one else is going to jump back into this because of how the last bunch of posts have went.

Bob, I think Matt. 18 has been pretty well discussed and certainly it has not proven anything in terms of placing doubt in OSAS. You want it to say certain things really bad but it just doesn't. Look at the ending of the story, the person stays in prison until he pays the last of his debt. He has a whole family of people that would pay down that debt and get him out. We can't get out of hell, right? so this punishment just cannot be Hell. Perhaps Lloyd's argument makes more sense for that point anyway. I told you pages ago that when I read the story I see The sevant as not being saved. I believe sevant in this case just means all people, not a saved person. If the servant was saved once how did he build up such a great debt again? No the reason the amount is so great is that it is the initial debt that we all have. Why palsce a number on the debt at all? God did when he wrote it so it has to be thought about. Also, in this parable the debt is cleared and the way is straight for the servant to go forth in a righteous life. The servant does not accept this removel of his debt. The proof is that he went right out that very moment and did not do the same as was done for him. Loving others is the greatest proof we have of being In Christ, or justified by God. By loving others we show the world we belong to God. Notice in the story, it is another person that goes and tells the King what happened. God God need others to tell Him of our sin and deeds? No, He doesn't so the story messes that up also. You see, the meat here is to love others and show God by that love. It is also that a price was paid so that we would be free to love others and we need to accept that payment and then show the love to others. I think with many parables we try to dig so deep we miss the obvious.

bob, move on to some other verses, one at a time, in context of course with the verses around it. If you and Lloyd keep posting the length and depth that you have it excludes me and my tiny mind, and probably many others as well.

In Christ, who first loved us,
Brian

 

[ascund]

Hey Briguy

Nice suggestion! Let's see if BobRyan reacts with a genuine exchange!

I personally do not like large insensitive cut and paste posts.

Lloyd

 

[Briguy]

I mad several typo's on my post above and cannot fix them now. sorry about that. "God God" should read "Does God". Whether in the first line should be "while". The point I was making is that is seems like it is easy in the spirit of the debate to let the debate rule actions instead of letting Christ rule actions. It is almost like some folks forget that the debate is over God's doctrine and love thy neighbor is a huge part of the very doctrine we debate.

Lloyd, I also hope that Bob or mman would accept our challange. for the most part this has been a fun and informative thread. In the last couple pages the "fun" seemed to leave somewhat but hopefully it will return as Bob and/or mman and/or bmerr, takes our challange.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[ascund]

Greetings

The Greek language is rather specific in the support of OSAS. Greek does this positively through the Perfect Tense and negatively through its emphatic denials.

A. Verses that use the Greek Perfect Tense.

“The Greek Perfect Tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action” (Machen, New Testament Greek for Beginners, p187).

“The perfect tense is the tense of complete action. Its basal significance is the progress of an act or state to a point of culmination and the existence of its finished results. That is, it views action as a finished product. … It implies a process, but views that process as having reached its consummation and existing in a finished state” (Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p200).

We must notice that the Greek Perfect Tense has no implications that the continued action of a past result will cease. The English words that are used to translate the Greek Perfect in the following passages are bolded. These words carry the idea of a continued, completed, consummated, unending state.

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. This certifies that once one is born of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!

“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven” John 3:27. This certifies that once God has given salvation, then the results of this giving continue unendingly!

“he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” John 5:24. This verifies that the act of passing from death to life continues unendingly!

“And we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ” John 6:69. This confirms that the position of believing continues for ever!

“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” John 10:39. This corroborates the result of being given by God continues eternally!

So just before Jesus died he cried out “It is finished!” John 19:30. This shows that Christ’s accomplishments on the cross endure forever and they don’t need to be lost and reapplied.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God” Romans 5:1,2. This verifies that our access to God endures unendingly. It also confirms that our standing in grace continues eternally!

“For he who has died has been freed [justified] from sin” Romans 6:7. This validates that our freedom from sin (justification) continues without abatement!

“To the church of God which is at Corinth to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus” 1 Corinthians 1:2. This shows that sanctification never ceases!

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” Ephesians 2:4,5. This declares that the result of salvation is eternally unending!

“For by grace you have been saved through faith” Ephesians 2:8. This emphasizes that salvation is once for all!

“That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints . . .” Ephesians 3:17. This shows that our salvation is eternally rooted and grounded!

“Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies . . .” Colossians 3:12. This shows that our being loved by God will continue unendingly!

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works” Titus 3:8. The ace of believing continues on forever.

“By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” Hebrews 10:10. This verse has two ways of emphasizing eternal security. First, the Greek perfect affirms that our sanctification is an eternal process. Second, the author ends the verse with a “once for all” phrase to further underscore the certainty of the statement.

“to an inheritance incorruptible an undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you” 1 Peter 1:4. Not only does God make the reservation, but he never cancels it either!

“having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever” 1 Peter 1:23. The act of being born again continues unendingly!

“To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ” Jude 2. This insists that our sanctification continues unendingly and that we are preserved in Christ unfalteringly forever!


B. The double negative is used to highlight or underscore the impossibility of the stated action occurring. “The combination of the double negative occurs 96 times. With the light that the papyri have thrown upon this doubling of the negatives we can now say unreservedly that the negatives were doubled for the purpose of stating denials or prohibitions emphatically. … people used the doubling of negatives for making categorical and emphatic denials” Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p266,267.

“I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never [never] hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never [never] thirst” John 6:35.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never [never] perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand” John 10:28.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never [never] die” John 11:36.

“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no [no] more” Hebrews 8:12.

For Jesus himself said, “I will never [never] leave you nor [never] forsake you” Hebrews 13:5.


There is no counterpoint to the Greek Perfect Tense. No theologian knowledgeable of Greek should be a proponent against the “once saved – always saved” eternal life!

A little bit of Greek goes a long way!
Lloyd