Once Saved Always Saved part2

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1392796#post1392796

HP: That is pure conjecture without the least bit of reasonable support. There is simply no end to the desperate attempts to support ones presupposition of OSAS.

Amy: Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

These were unsaved people. They were "uncircumcised in heart" because they had resisted the Holy Spirit.

Uncircumcised in heart = unsaved.

It is the Holy Spirit that convicts, and resisting Him results in being UNSAVED.

HP: Here was the point you made.

Amy: Resisting the Holy Spirit that Stephen was talking about is in regard to salvation. Quenching the Spirit in the context that Paul was speaking about has nothing to do with salvation.

HP: You have said or produced nothing that shows that the verse in 1Thess 5:19 speaking of ‘quenching the Spirit’ has “nothing to do with salvation” as you claim. You simple are starting from the unsupported presupposition of OSAS and reasoning in a circle, assuming without proof that your presupposition is correct. Again you simply cannot have the text speaking of salvation, not do to any evidence in the passage itself, but rather because to do so would do damage to your presupposition of OSAS.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

HP:

Amy is right. Surely you have read the sermon Stephen preached. Are you suggesting he was not preaching the Gospel to those Jews? lol

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks RB. It's good to see you again! Hope you're well.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RB: Amy is right. Surely you have read the sermon Stephen preached. Are you suggesting he was not preaching the Gospel to those Jews?

HP:Amy’s point was:

Amy: “Quenching the Spirit in the context that Paul was speaking about has nothing to do with salvation.”

My point is that there is absolutely nothing in ‘that’ passage (1Thess 5:19) that would indicate that salvation is not being addressed. If you think there is, show us from the context of the passage in question, i.e., again, 1Thess 5:19, that salvation is not being addressed. Just because some could resist the Holy Spirit in Acts that were unsaved, does not mandate or imply that believers cannot resist and or quench the Spirit in any other passage. If you believe otherwise, support your reasoning with the evidence.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1392796#post1392796

HP: That is pure conjecture without the least bit of reasonable support. There is simply no end to the desperate attempts to support ones presupposition of OSAS.


HP: Here was the point you made.


HP: You have said or produced nothing that shows that the verse in 1Thess 5:19 speaking of ‘quenching the Spirit’ has “nothing to do with salvation” as you claim. You simple are starting from the unsupported presupposition of OSAS and reasoning in a circle, assuming without proof that your presupposition is correct. Again you simply cannot have the text speaking of salvation, not do to any evidence in the passage itself, but rather because to do so would do damage to your presupposition of OSAS.

HP, if you will put things into the context that they were written, you will clearly see that Stephen was referring to salvation, whereas Paul was referring to the gifts of the Spirit. We are talking about 2 different subjects here.
It is you who continues to bring in your presuppositions that one can lose their salvation that is messing up your interpretation. I am simply reading the text in context.


Stephen was speaking to "uncircumcised in heart" Jews. He is speaking to unsaved Jews, who were unsaved because they had resisted the Spirit. It is so clear.

Paul is speaking to saved people. He is not saying they can quench the Spirit and lose their salvation. He is speaking about spiritual gifts, not salvation. Context rules.


"Resisting" the Spirit in the Acts text and "quenching" the Spirit in 1 Thess. are two different things which are determined by the context of each passage.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, if you will put things into the context that they were written, you will clearly see that Stephen was referring to salvation, ....

HP: Your context rules merely beg the question. You assume without proof that because Paul is speaking to believers, the context must be gifts not salvation. You are reasoning in a circle from an unsupported presupposition of OSAS. That is not reasoning from the context Amy, neither does the context prove or establish your point in the least. One thing and one thing alone establishes your position, your presupposition of OSAS, again assumed by begging the question, assuming something to be true without clear evidence.

 

[DHK]

HP:Amy’s point was:

My point is that there is absolutely nothing in ‘that’ passage (1Thess 5:19) that would indicate that salvation is not being addressed. If you think there is, show us from the context of the passage in question, i.e., again, 1Thess 5:19, that salvation is not being addressed. Just because some could resist the Holy Spirit in Acts that were unsaved, does not mandate or imply that believers cannot resist and or quench the Spirit in any other passage. If you believe otherwise, support your reasoning with the evidence.

Context, HP, context!

1 Thessalonians 5:16-22 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

None of the above admonitions, including that which is written in verse 19, have anything to do with salvation. They all speak of the Christian life, and how we are to act. We are to pray without ceasing. That has nothing to do with an unbeliever; nothing to do with salvation. Neither do any of the other admonitions. None of this has anything to do with salvation.
How can you say that it does?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Your context rules merely beg the question. You assume without proof that because Paul is speaking to believers, the context must be gifts not salvation. You are reasoning in a circle from an unsupported presupposition of OSAS. That is not reasoning from the context Amy, neither does the context prove or establish your point in the least. One thing and one thing alone establishes your position, your presupposition of OSAS, again assumed by begging the question, assuming something to be true without clear evidence.

The clear evidence is the context.

I cannot explain it any better than I already have. Perhaps you would like to to give it a try rather than just saying that I am wrong?

Please HP, give us your interpretation of these 2 passages.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Context, HP, context!...

None of the above admonitions, including that which is written in verse 19, have anything to do with salvation.

HP: Why DHK? I can tell you why you say what you do, because of your unproven presupposition of OSAS. That is not using the context to decide anything. That is allowing a presupposition to determine how you interpret the passage. You are doing precisely what Amy is doing, i.e., reasoning in a circle and begging the question. You are assuming without proof that because OSAS is true, and this passage is speaking to believers, salvation cannot be at stake. That again is not allowing the passage to be intrpreted by context, but rather it is allowing the presupposition of OSAS to determine and limit the meaning. So much for context.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy, I believe post #4 makes my point clearly.

 

[DHK]

HP: Why DHK? I can tell you why you say what you do, because of your unproven presupposition of OSAS.

Why would Paul write: "Pray without ceasing," to an unbeliever? Why would he have written any of those admonitions to an unbeliever? The whole epistle was written to believers and about the Christian life. But specifically I want to know how "Pray without ceasing," applies to the unbeliever. Please answer.
There is no presupposition here; only context.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I believe post #4 makes my point clearly.

Your post #4 does nothing but say that I am wrong.

You have failed to prove that a believer can lose his salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Why would Paul write: "Pray without ceasing," to an unbeliever?

HP: No one said he would.

DHK: Why would he have written any of those admonitions to an unbeliever?

HP: No one said that he would.

DHK: The whole epistle was written to believers and about the Christian life.

HP: Yes, but verse five is a warning to believers not to quench the Spirit. There is nothing that states or implies that if one does one will not in the end they will not find themselves to have made shipwreck of the faith if it is persisted in. To ‘quench’ bears the meaning of to extinguish, to put out as one would put out a flame, to destroy, to check or to stifle as to eliminate the effectiveness of the Spirit. A warning not to quench would not be a warning not to extinguish the flame of the Holy Spirit in our lives. No one having extinguished the Spirit in their lives can have any certain hope of eternal life. Ro 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. " Note the condition "if so be."

DHK: But specifically I want to know how "Pray without ceasing," applies to the unbeliever. Please answer.
There is no presupposition here; only context.

HP: I answered that above.

It is not context in any way shape or form that denies that a believer is not in danger of extinguishing the Holy Spirit in their lives. There is nothing in this passage that takes away from that clear possibility given in a warning to the believers being addressed. The only thing that limits such a possibility is the presupposition of OSAS you and Amy apply to the text without the slightest shred of evidence from the text itself that would limit such a possibility.

 

[Amy.G]

I am a simple minded person. When Jesus said "I will never leave you nor forsake you", I ask myself, "do I believe this?"

My answer is "yes, I believe that Jesus will NEVER leave me nor forsake me".

The alternative is to say that I don't believe Jesus' words. I'm just not willing to go there.

 

[DHK]

HP: Yes, but verse five is a warning to believers not to quench the Spirit. There is nothing that states or implies that if one does one will not in the end they will not find themselves to have made shipwreck of the faith if it is persisted in. To ‘quench’ bears the meaning of to extinguish, to put out as one would put out a flame, to destroy, to check or to stifle as to eliminate the effectiveness of the Spirit. A warning not to quench would not be a warning not to extinguish the flame of the Holy Spirit in our lives. No one having extinguished the Spirit in their lives can have any certain hope of eternal life. Ro 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. " Note the condition "if so be."

Romans 8 is not in 1 Thes. Note the context again. If one doesn't pray without ceasing he doesn't lose his salvation.
If one quenches the Holy Spirit, he likewise does not lose his salvation. Go down the entire list of verses that way. In no verse, if the admonition is disobeyed does the believer lose their salvation. Why would the Lord make an exception for verse 19. He doesn't.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit never departs from the believer. This is not what the verse is speaking about. It is speaking of the working of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is at work in another person or even an entire church, as in a revival, it is possible to quench the fire, the revival, the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in those individual lives by the way that you live by being a stumblingblock rather than a steppingstone. If your sin grieves the Holy Spirit it will also quench the Holy Spirit's working.

Go to Eph.4, where Paul says not to grieve the Holy Spirit:
Ephesians 4:30-32 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
--Immediately after this verse he gives different ways in which the Holy Spirit may be grieved:

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

The same is true for quenching the Holy Spirit. Don't let its light go out; don't extinguish it by your sin. It has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Note the context again. If one doesn't pray without ceasing he doesn't lose his salvation.

HP: No one said he did.

DHK: If one quenches the Holy Spirit, he likewise does not lose his salvation.

HP: First, no one is speaking of ‘loosing ones salvation in this world’ as I have addressed many times before. That is your term not mine. I would say that in this life we simply have no basis for our assurance that we will be found in Him in the last day if we have quenched the Spirit and have not been renewed via repentance and faith. It could be said in Scriptural terms that one makes shipwreck of their faith. It is not lost until there is no hope. Unless the Holy Spirit is withdrawn to the point of absolutely no longer influencing the spirit of man, hope is still available. This is clearly represented in scripture as a possibility. Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

In this passage we again do not see a shred of evidence that at one time they did not have faith. It specifically says that they did not like to ‘retain’ God in their knowledge, and that God have given them up. Notice that the had “left” and “changed” not that they were born that way or were that way from birth. It even goes so far as to say “when they knew God.” In verse 19 it says that “Ro 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.” Notice that God was at one time manifest in them. Is God manifest 'in' a nonsaved individual? I thought unsaved person was dead and had no ability to comprehend spiritual things. Here these individuals had God 'manifest in them' due to their 'knowledge of God.' Certainly they were far from being dead at one time. I see this passage as depicting one that has know the way of righteousness, but has turned from that way, grieving away the Holy Spirit, quenching the Spirit that they one had, much like the passage in 1 Thess. Here is the end of that spoken of.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
We as believers in 1Thess 5:19 are warned carefully NOT to grieve away the Holy Spirit. Again, there is not the slightest indication that in the end such grieving away will not end with the destruction of the faith one might have had at one time, just as in Romans 1 indicates happened to some.

DHK:Go down the entire list of verses that way. In no verse, if the admonition is disobeyed does the believer lose their salvation. Why would the Lord make an exception for verse 19. He doesn't.

HP: Oh yes but He does expressly speak of that possibility. Nothing again in the context would offer evidence to the contrary. Just because God gives some admonitions in a passage that may or may not cause one to make shipwreck of the faith, does not necessitate by context or anything else that something else mentioned in the same passage could in fact be a cause to make faith shipwreck, and in the end be lost. There simply is no justification for the conclusion you are making. Context in no wise places any such limitations.

DHK: The indwelling of the Holy Spirit never departs from the believer.

HP: That again is begging the question. There is no reason the Holy Spirit would have to leave IF one does not grieve or quench him away, but the clear possibility does exist and we are warned concerning it.

DHK: If your sin grieves the Holy Spirit it will also quench the Holy Spirit's working.

HP: In the believers life as well as the non believer. If the Holy Spirit is no longer working in ones life, it is absolutely impossible for them to please God and as such are without hope. Without Me ye can do nothing, certainly not continue a life in the Spirit, without which no one will in the end be saved.

DHK: The same is true for quenching the Holy Spirit. Don't let its light go out; don't extinguish it by your sin. It has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

HP: You are making a distinction where there is none. There is only one indwelling Holy Spirit to quench. When one quenches the Holy Spirit one is in danger of eliminating the Holy Spirit’s indwelling witness in their life. When one quenches the Holy Spirit, i.e. in the end causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw Himself via their continued refusal to be listen and obey, one is in danger of shutting out the indwelling Holy Spirit’s influence upon our lives. Once that is done, we can do nothing. That is precisely how one makes shipwreck of their faith and in the end has the possibility of being lost eternally in spite of any hope they once enjoyed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: I am a simple minded person.

HP: It is good to be humble, but I certainly do not believe you are simple minded. :thumbs:

Amy: When Jesus said "I will never leave you nor forsake you", I ask myself, "do I believe this?"

My answer is "yes, I believe that Jesus will NEVER leave me nor forsake me".

The alternative is to say that I don't believe Jesus' words. I'm just not willing to go there.

HP: Amy, I can only share with you what I believe to be the truth as presented in the passages I set forth. I believe one can and should consider an alternate interpretation. God is setting forth His faithfulness. He is not going to withdraw Himself in an arbitrary manner. He is faithful! Just the same, that promise I believe is conditional in this sense, that we, by grieving Him, by quenching Him, are saying in essence, I no longer desire your influence in my life. I no longer desire for you to influence my life. I no longer am willing to live in obedience to the influences of the Spirit. God is not in reality leaving us, we are leaving Him.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: It is good to be humble, but I certainly do not believe you are simple minded. :thumbs:



HP: Amy, I can only share with you what I believe to be the truth as presented in the passages I set forth. I believe one can and should consider an alternate interpretation. God is setting forth His faithfulness. He is not going to withdraw Himself in an arbitrary manner. He is faithful! Just the same, that promise I believe is conditional in this sense, that we, by grieving Him, by quenching Him, are saying in essence, I no longer desire your influence in my life. I no longer desire for you to influence my life. I no longer am willing to live in obedience to the influences of the Spirit. God is not in reality leaving us, we are leaving Him.

I think it is conditional too. Jesus' promise to never leave or forsake us is conditioned upon when the end of "never" is.

See, even if I (hypothetically speaking) were to "leave" Him, He has promised to never leave me. My unfaithfulness does not make void His faithfulness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: See, even if I (hypothetically speaking) were to "leave" Him, He has promised to never leave me. My unfaithfulness does not make void His faithfulness.

HP: I would remind you of the following passage that has been faithfully set before this list by Bob Ryan and others numerous times.
Ro 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Grieving away the Holy Spirit, quenching the Holy Spirit and doing despite His influence upon us, places one in jeopardy of the ‘possibility’ of not being spared, even as the verses above warn us is indeed within the realm of possibility.

Certainly if we remain and abide in the vine in obedience, there is no need to walk in doubt or fear.

As for never leaving us, this verse comes to mind. In a sense this might be true....again in a sense. Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Certainly not where I desire to make my bed, although God appears to be in some sense with those there.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I would remind you of the following passage that has been faithfully set before this list by Bob Ryan and others numerous times.

Ro 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Here Paul is talking about the Jews, as a whole, and Gentiles, as a whole.
Those Jews (speaking of all Jews) that did not cling to the vine (Christ) would be broken off. This is not saying that they were saved and then cut off. There were Jews that never put their faith in Christ. These are the ones (out of the whole of the Jews) that will be burned (go to hell)

The same is true of Gentiles (as a whole), not speaking of individuals. Anyone who does not put their faith in Christ (the vine) will be cut off. This person will not be saved, but will be cut off from the saved Gentiles who cling to the vine.

Paul is telling the Gentile church that God will give the same judgment to them as He did to the Jews.


You want so badly to believe that God will take away from you what He has freely given. I just don't understand why.