Once Saved Always Saved part2

[DHK]

HP: You are making a distinction where there is none. There is only one indwelling Holy Spirit to quench.

Words have meanings. You want to ignore those meanings and lump them all into one pool and say they all mean the same thing. Sorry, God uses different words for different purposes, something you will have to live with, and something you will have to study out and find out why?

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The quenching of the Holy Spirit.
The grieving of the Holy Spirit.
The filling of the Holy Spirit.
The illumination of the Holy Spirit.
The guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The conviction of the Holy Spirit.
The intercession of the Holy Spirit.

And still there are others.
Do they all mean the same? Do all these ministries just mean the same thing? Is that what you would have us to believe?
Indwelling, quenching, and grieving all mean the same thing in your theology? You have much to learn in the area of pneumatology.

 

[Amy.G]

As for never leaving us, this verse comes to mind. In a sense this might be true....again in a sense. Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Certainly not where I desire to make my bed, although God appears to be in some sense with those there.

Are you saying that when Jesus said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" that He meant He would be right there with you in hell??????? Talk about eisegesis!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Are you saying that when Jesus said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" that He meant He would be right there with you in hell??????? Talk about eisegesis!

HP: Maybe you do not believe God is Omnipresent? I was just quoting a Scripture. You tell us what it means.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Maybe you do not believe God is Omnipresent? I was just quoting a Scripture. You tell us what it means.

Yeah, that's it. I don't believe God is omnipresent.

I'm sure you know that by all of my posts over the past 2 1/2 years. Double

Psalm 139:8 is a comforting verse which clearly portrays God's omnipresence. It means that no matter what happens to me or where I go that God will also be there with me. Hell in this verse refers to the grave, not the lake of fire. So even if I'm dead and buried, God is still with me. Of course it is David that is speaking in this verse and has to be put into OT context. This verse is also referring to a person who is saved. You do think David was saved, don't you? Jesus did not contradict this. He will never leave us, He will be with us always, just as David said.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Howdy

Heavenly ,Do you seek to understand the security of the believer and this is why you post on this subject? Or are you refuting it for the benefit of............? Reason I ask is that we should build others"the body of Christ" through the teaching of Gods word so is there a reason why?? I just want to know your motive and if there is a spiritual benefit for this discussion. Thx

 

[DHK]

Heavenly ,Do you seek to understand the security of the believer and this is why you post on this subject? Or are you refuting it for the benefit of............? Reason I ask is that we should build others"the body of Christ" through the teaching of Gods word so is there a reason why?? I just want to know your motive and if there is a spiritual benefit for this discussion. Thx

This is a good question Jedi. I'd like to see HP's response to it also.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This thread does not need to be derailed by those on a personal witch hunt or those desiring to follow such a hunt. Present your views of OSAS or refute the statements of others would be my advice if you desire interaction from others. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

This thread does not need to be derailed by those on a personal witch hunt or those desiring to follow such a hunt. Present your views of OSAS or refute the statements of others would be my advice if you desire interaction from others.

A simple question doesn't need to be dodged, only answered.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"A simple question doesn't need to be dodged, only answered." Amen!:type: Psst. DHK I think we stepped on some toes.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Excuse me.

Whilst myself as securist as Baptists for 11 years. I thought unconditional security salvation doctrine is biblical, because of what the Baptist churches believe.

But, when I read many passages, these show me there are plenty of conitional with warnings.

For example - in Exodus 32:32- "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.."

Moses asked God, if He doesn't forgive people's sins, then ask Him to removed Moses' name from the book of Life.

Then, God said to Moses - Exodus 32:33 - "And the Lord said unto Moses, 'Wheresoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

God told Moses clearly, if they sinned against Him, He would removed people's name from the book of life.

This is not the proof of OSAS doctrine.

Even,

in Rev. 3:5 tells us, if anyone overcome them, Christ would not remove person's name away from the book of life. OR, if a person fail to overcome them in the lifetime, then Christ have the right to removed person's name away from the book of life.

Rev. 3:5 tells the same with Exo. 32:32-33.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: This is not the proof of OSAS doctrine.

HP: You always bring a lot of sound Scriptural ideas to the table. :thumbs:

 

[Dr. Timo]

Whoever lives and believes in me shall NEVER die!!! Believest thou this?:applause::thumbs::jesus:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Whoever lives and believes in me shall NEVER die!!! Believest thou this?:applause::thumbs::jesus:

I shant believest in Dr. Timo for there be only one mediator betwixed man and God; the man Christ Jesus. For sooth it is so.

 

[Lysimachus]

I shant believest in Dr. Timo for there be only one mediator betwixed man and God; the man Christ Jesus. For sooth it is so.

But "believing" is a BIG PACKAGE! How do you prove that you believe in Jesus?

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

To assume that all you must do is "believe" in the "mind" is to make mockery of the word of God.

Hebrews 10:38,39 -- "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

The scripture can't get any plainer. By definition, and the simplistic wording of God's sacred writ, a saved man can "draw back" to perdition. But by faith, we "CHOOSE" to not be among those that draw back.

God never takes away the will. He never makes us robots.

There is no "Once Saved Always Saved".

Regarding the widows that neglected their duties in order to marry, take notice:

1 Tim. 5:12 -- "Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." -- unequivocal evidence that it is possible to throw off your first faith. In order to have damnation because you threw off your first faith, logic demands that you once had to have been saved.

Now this is not to be meant that the moment you cast off your faith you are damned. The underlying implication is--you have now JUMPED on the road TOWARD damnation. And if you stay on that wrong road, it will eventually lead you to damnation. But you have to GET UP, turn around, and move forward in the right direction again! But it takes your will!

Ezekiel 33:18,19 - "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if [Notice the conditional element "if"] the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby."

Those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" would actually be in more danger of losing their salvation than those who believe that salvation is a daily decision, because this calls for effort to be put forth to cling to Christ.

He will not let go of us, but we can let go of Him. The rope of salvation is always there, but we just need to hang on to the rope. We must exercise our will to grab onto the rope that Christ throws out for us. Then, we must put forth effort to hang on for dear life. From there, we will get towed to shore [heaven].

I have been saved. I am being saved. And I SHALL be saved! Salvation is a daily process.

We must keep our eyes FIXED on Jesus! Remember Peter when he was walking on the water? He took his eyes off of Jesus and began to sink. He cried out for "HELP!". Jesus came and rescued him.

The same lesson can be taught in the allegory of Pilgrims Progress.

Christian chose to be saved, and he began his journey toward the Celestial City. On the way, he ignored counsel and fell into the Slough of Despond. At that very moment, his life was at peril. But what did he do? He cried for "HELP!" Mr. Help came and pulled him out.

Now, at that moment, what would have happened if Christian had not called out for "help"? Help would have not come. He would have sank in the slough, and lost salvation. But because he made human effort, from his own will, the Lord delivered him by coming to his aid.

Matthew 7:7,8 - "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Christ knocks on the door of your heart. But we must open the door to let Him in. We can also chase Jesus out if we so choose, but He will continue to work on our hearts to let him in again.

Once we fall "off the path", and we "continue in our course toward perdition", there is no getting back on the path unless WE CHOOSE from our own will power to get back on the path. God will not force you to do anything against your will.

I believe the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine has the potential to cause many to make shipwreck of faith.

It has the tendency to deceive many people, causing millions of them to cherish a false sense of security in Christ. It creates a sense of laziness..."Oh, I'm saved, so no matter what I do, I'm sealed!"

 

[steaver]

Hebrews 10:38,39 -- "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

The scripture can't get any plainer. By definition, and the simplistic wording of God's sacred writ, a saved man can "draw back" to perdition. But by faith, we "CHOOSE" to not be among those that draw back.

Changing what the writer just said does not give your position much credibility. You took what the writer said and twisted it into your own presuppositions. Hebrews 10 is a SOLID OSAS doctrine and I am surprised you would bring it up as if it declares OSAS false.

WE are NOT of THEM who draw back unto PERDITION. OSAS.

Praise God for His power to keep that which He has purchased forever!

BTW, good to have you here and I want you to know Lysimachus, you are safe and secure in the arms of Jesus! Don't worry about losing your eternal life, you see, this is why it is called "eternal". God Bless! See ya with Jesus some day.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

1 Tim. 5:12 -- "Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." -- unequivocal evidence that it is possible to throw off your first faith. In order to have damnation because you threw off your first faith, logic demands that you once had to have been saved.

Now this is not to be meant that the moment you cast off your faith you are damned. The underlying implication is--you have now JUMPED on the road TOWARD damnation. And if you stay on that wrong road, it will eventually lead you to damnation. But you have to GET UP, turn around, and move forward in the right direction again! But it takes your will!

Wow! You sure had to do some fancy defining as not to contradict Hebrews 6. Why all the interjection? Why not just let the scripture speak of marriage and widows as it does and let it go. Presuppositions will cause all kinds of misunderstandings when studying God's word.

The scripture says she has cast of her faith and then you say, no no, this means you have only begun to cast off your first faith. You see how you must make up stuff just to make the scripture speak of your presuppositions?

Find scripture that actually speaks of eternal salvation and make your case. Let these passages that has nothing to do with salvation alone. Please!

Here is one...

Hbr 7:25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

You see? I don't have to make anything up. This is OSAS.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Ezekiel 33:18,19 - "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if [Notice the conditional element "if"] the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby."

Those who believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" would actually be in more danger of losing their salvation than those who believe that salvation is a daily decision, because this calls for effort to be put forth to cling to Christ.

Do you see anything about born of God, regeneration, Holy Spirit indwellment, eternal life? Again, find some scripture that relates to the topic of OSAS.

Here is another...

Tts 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

WOW! I don't need to explain this passge! Kinda makes the passage in Ezekiel look contradictive, but the bible does not contradict itself anywhere, so I guess each passage needs to be kept within it's context and viewed in light of the NT revelation.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

He will not let go of us, but we can let go of Him. The rope of salvation is always there, but we just need to hang on to the rope. We must exercise our will to grab onto the rope that Christ throws out for us. Then, we must put forth effort to hang on for dear life. From there, we will get towed to shore [heaven].

Relax brother (I think, not sure about that name of yours) . There's no rope, no hanging on to do. God has given you the Holy Spirit. God has made you a new creature. God is faithful and will make sure ALL of His children get home safe!

1Th 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

There I go again, giving scripture that needs no fanciful disclaimers.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

The same lesson can be taught in the allegory of Pilgrims Progress.

Christian chose to be saved, and he began his journey toward the Celestial City. On the way, he ignored counsel and fell into the Slough of Despond. At that very moment, his life was at peril. But what did he do? He cried for "HELP!" Mr. Help came and pulled him out.

Now, at that moment, what would have happened if Christian had not called out for "help"? Help would have not come. He would have sank in the slough, and lost salvation. But because he made human effort, from his own will, the Lord delivered him by coming to his aid.

I guess he had to believe Mr. Help would pull him out of his mistake. That would be faith alone saving him.

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

What! Another passage needing no disclaimers! "Not of Yourselves" How do you say you must HOLD ON TO THAT ROPE!?

Not of yourself brother, not of yourself.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Christ knocks on the door of your heart. But we must open the door to let Him in. We can also chase Jesus out if we so choose, but He will continue to work on our hearts to let him in again.

No no, if it is possible for Him to leave, then He cannot come back...

Hbr 6:4For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

You can't have your theology both ways. If you believe one can lose the Holy Spirit after once having received the Holy Spirit, then this can only happen once and there can be no second chance.

:jesus: