Once saved, always saved?

I never doubt His power. I doubt yours. I do rejoice in Him, I simply do not become puffed up. I rejoice in His promises and know I will not be put to shame.For I know I speak truth and you have not been able to refute that but simply reject it . And since you reject the true doctrine of the faith, the Dogma only fully preserved in those faithful to Him of the Catholic Church, how can you be in His hands? How can you be in His hands when you deny esteem of the saints , His real presents, baptism by water as a necessary part of salvation, applied in its three acceptable forms? How can you be in His hands when you do not believe in His established priesthood in the order of Melchizedek ? How can you be in hands when you reject His mother as the mother of all in Him (the Mother to the Head and not the body? How is that???) How can you be in His hands when you have no Rites and do not uphold the last supper as the daily sacrifice to be presented upon God's altar? How can you be in His hands when you have no altar, not even upon your heart which has no faith in the truths I mentioned which I can and have repeatedly and absolutely supported with scripture.? Upon His hand? How ?When you deny what the scriptures clearly support? Even venial and mortal sin I have pointed out with scripture and you deny that in your denomination. No Hank , to be in His hands is to to believe the truth, not ones own idea of WHAT TRUTH IS. You have nothing to say concerning Truth only that you reject it . If you are proud of that then for sure your boast is not in Christ but in pride, which is spawned by the father of lies . You deny the obvious. To each man his own. My lot is upon the hand of God....... I stand, unmoved by people's heresy and apostasy.

 

Blessings LW.

 

I am and I thank Christ- God's Mercy and His grace given me. Be Blessed Hank.

 

You are mistaken about “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit”. Jesus warned the Pharisees that they were in danger of committing the Unpardonable Sin ... surely you do not claim that the Pharisees had “tasted the gifts of the Holy Spirit” and abandoned them, as you describe of Judas.

However, your walls of text indicate that you are not in a listening mode, but merely waiting to speak. So I will leave you to it.

 

What? Who mentioned Pharisees ? Surely not I. And no , not only Pharisees can blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
What makes you say I am not in a listening mode? This is a baptist board, all one can do , who is not baptist is listen to the claims in here and then respond. My walls of text address miles of false doctrine . It is not my fault that I have to address so much false information with my walls. But first , without a doubt I have to listen to the discussions in here. I obviously read thoroughly what people say in here. Who is not in a listening mode? It is clear it is the baptist in here , who forgo truth for personal appeasement .

 

Jesus mentioned Pharisees. It occurs in the context surrounding Matthew 12:31 ...

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."​

... which is where the phrase "unforgivable sin" and "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" come from. If one wishes to understand a biblical phrase, one must look to more than just the one verse; one must read the context surrounding that verse.

The Pharisees in Matthew 12 are the only people that JESUS warned about the sin of Blasphemy of the Spirit which would not be forgiven. It might be enlightening to see what they were doing to prompt such a warning.

 

Well that is false. Clearly in other parts of scripture it is worded in other ways , blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is also mortal sin or as worded in scripture sin that leads to death ,a mortal blow obviously. Is there a difference? You do know men have an extensive vocabulary and there are multiple ways to say the same thing. Death of the soul is death of the soul no matter how you turn it. And Pharisees are not the only ones that can happen to. For you to say that, is to say that only Pharisees are in hell and are the only ones to go to hell. Hell is reserved for just that, the unforgivable sin.

 

What Christ is clearly stating in the verse you posted (atpollard) is......Pharisees too , can go to hell, unbeknownst to them. Christ was giving them the 411 on the do's and don'ts of heaven. They, being self righteous thought they were above reproach and immune to such a fate. Christ is like 'yeah right! as if.'

 

"ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED"

This is a generally misused and misunderstood phrase. As commonly applied ... 'one can say a prayer, live a reprobate life thereafter, and still go to heaven' ... it is completely false. As a pithy version of "Perseverance of the Saints", it is true. Here is an explanation of Perseverance of the Saints by R.C. Sproul:

Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.

We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.

True Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.
—R.C. Sproul

I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.

We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.

The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.

I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been preserved. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.
​

 

Unless a "sin that leads to death" (1 John 5:16) means exactly what it says ... that the sin results in their literal death.

[1 John 5:16-18 NIV] 16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. 18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.​

In which case, the difference between a sin not leading to death and a sin leading to death is whether or not there remains time to repent or God has already called them to Judgement.

 

[Matthew 12:22-37 NLT]
22 Then a demon-possessed man, who was blind and couldn't speak, was brought to Jesus. He healed the man so that he could both speak and see. 23 The crowd was amazed and asked, "Could it be that Jesus is the Son of David, the Messiah?"

24 But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, "No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons."

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and replied, "Any kingdom divided by civil war is doomed. A town or family splintered by feuding will fall apart. 26 And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is divided and fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive. 27 And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said. 28 But if I am casting out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you. 29 For who is powerful enough to enter the house of a strong man like Satan and plunder his goods? Only someone even stronger--someone who could tie him up and then plunder his house.

30 "Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me.

31 "So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

33 "A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. 34 You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. 35 A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. 36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you."​

1. Jesus cast out a Demon by the power of the Holy Spirit (Mat 12:22)
2. The Pharisees ascribed the work of God (the Spirit) to Satan (Mat 12:24)
3. Jesus refutes their logic and warns that blasphemy (speaking against God) against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven (Mat 12:31-32)
4. Jesus condemns the Pharisees as a brood of snakes (snakes being symbols of Satan and sin from Genesis) and declares them "evil men".

How CERTAIN are you that "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" (the only unforgivable sin) has nothing to do with what the Pharisees were doing in Matthew 12?

 

Ah, I think I already addressed this....." you should pray and God will give them life". It would seem I am still right . If God can only give life to those in venial sin, and not mortal sin ,it is clear mortal sin is death, otherwise one could pray for that kind of sin and God could give such a one in it -life as He does one in venial sin. The (life) is forgiveness. Hence why Christ came (I am the way the Truth and the LIFE) . He came to forgive sin and take it away. If life (forgiveness) cannot be given concerning the sin which leads to death of the soul, (that is what the leading to death means) it is the unforgivable sin. The sinful act is first in thought which manifest by action- done in the flesh (as all actions are) and leads to death of the soul.

atpollard said:In which case, the difference between a sin not leading to death and a sin leading to death is whether or not there remains time to repent or God has already called them to Judgement.

No it is clear it is on earth. Not after one departs. And quite frankly I am surprised you would assert such a claim considering what Baptist believe and all ,concerning what you say about what you perceive as praying for the dead. If time is up you have left the earth. It is about ones actions which are so grievous that a believer is not required to sacrifice for you and do penance on your behalf. Your actions in the flesh have lead to death of the soul. After all, a man reaps what he does according to his actions while in the flesh. Time is all we have to get things right , the rest is the result of that with its end in eternal peace or eternal damnation.

 

Mortal sin is seen by those who have the spirit of discernment. Those who are given the Holy Spirit obviously recognize the difference between Mortal and Venial sin. God is instructing the faithful , that when recognized know this, it is the one that has not put out the light of the soul that is forgivable. Christ told us how to see this light too:Luke 11:34
Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your vision is clear, your whole body also is full of light. But when it is poor, your body is full of darkness.

The anointed of God can distinguish between venial and mortal sin in a person. Thanks Be To God!

 

I never said that Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with what the Pharisees were doing , are doing , will do.But rejected YOUR claim that Christ was only addressing the Pharisees concerning it. Obviously the Pharisees were guilty of that and my point is so are many other people with different titles and stations on earth. Hell is obviously reserved for the unforgivable sin is my point.

 

All sins are "mortal" and will eventually lead to death and damnation apart from Christ. There are only sins which we may yet repent of (because we are still among the living) and sins it is too late to repent of (because we are physically dead).

[Exo 10:17 NASB] 17 "Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and make supplication to the LORD your God, that He would only remove this death from me."
[Deu 21:22 NASB] 22 "If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,
[Deu 24:16 NASB] 16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for [their] sons, nor shall sons be put to death for [their] fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
[1Ki 18:9 NASB] 9 He said, "What sin have I committed, that you are giving your servant into the hand of Ahab to put me to death?
[Rom 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
[Rom 6:16, 23 NASB] 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? ... 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[Rom 7:13 NASB] 13 Therefore did that which is good become [a cause of] death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
[Rom 8:2 NASB] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
[1Co 15:56 NASB] 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
[Jas 1:15 NASB] 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.​

There are no "venial" sins. The sin that leads to physical death is one that a Holy God has already Perfectly judged ... there is no higher court to appeal to. It is only BEFORE judgement is passed that one can petition the Judge for mercy.

Everyone starts out "spiritually dead", so everyone is born guilty of "mortal sin" as you appear to define it.

[Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB]
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

 

Ananias and Sapphira apparently committed this sin:See Acts Chapter 5.

 

Possession is not Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is habitation of the soul by demons . Vulnerable people unknowingly open themselves up to this. It is not conscious , deliberate sin, but naivete. The demon or demons enter in hopes of keeping a pliable , moldable soul from receiving the Makers hand fully. These type of people can be easily persuaded to the truth as well, and remain. Devils recognize their flexibility- that if under the right conditions they will too, easily receive solid truth. In an attempt to prevent that ,they make habitation in order to prevent reconciliation. Possessed persons once freed, stay on the straight and narrow.

Those who are evil and are governed by evil spirits are willing participants to the works of the devil. It is not the same as unwilling possession, and those people can not be brought to the light. Those people know truth and choose darkness. It may be difficult for a Child of God to wrap his head around , but it is a sad truth. It has to do with personal glory and power akin to its father satan... it is equal to his desire to be god (self ruled). They can actual function and that is because of the willingness to engage in evil.

Concerning the type of possession in which demons can be cast out -only a pliable soul exhibits raving madness and uncontrollable behavior and rage.The demons do this in order to prevent people from seeking to save that soul in their possession Also , to instill fear of devils as oppose to faith in God's power. The possessed person has fight and is why the members of his flesh are attacked so viciously. He is simply a naive victim not fully party to evil and its outcome.

Now powerful people who have demons, the influence of devils and function in positions of power are a whole different ball of wax. Never the less their end is always tragic .They always die a terrible death , the weight of their crimes always comes down on their heads and they dwell in hell for eternity.

Lastly, Christ gives His servants the Spirit of discernment, and they know in Christ ,what soul is possessed and not submissive to, and accepting the control of the demons and those of which are party to evil willingly.

WOW! atpollard, you went out of the wheel of discussion didn't you? I am now awaiting the kitchen sink LOL!

 

Obviously atpollard I said there is more than one way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Hence ,why you responded and sought to correct me stating there is only one way and it was what the Pharisees did.

 

Obviously not all sins are Mortal ones because scripture says so. All sin is unrighteousness, but as scripture says there is sin that does not lead to death of the soul. That is the sin believers can pray about , because scripture says so. But the sin which leads to death that we see (WITH OUR EYES) someone committing , we are not required to pray for that sin because GOD OBVIOUSLY SAID LIFE CAN ONLY BE GIVEN TO ONE COMMITTING A VENIAL SIN. Obviously the prayer of a righteous man is to great avail and can save a soul. We are after all not like Cain, we are our brother's keeper.

 

You do not get it, our prayers give life and revives the soul of one in venial sin. That is why our prayer is effective. Light brings forth light not darkness. Through prayer we can touch a soul that still has light within , it is like breathing upon a flame, when you do so it becomes bigger and brighter, burning away the dross and gives greater sight to the recipient. We are all co-workers for God's kingdom our labor is for each other. Each of us holds a piece of God within us in order to encourage faith in the other. That light is Love because God is Love!

Time for me to have some fun. Took this from one of the concubine denominational sects.