Once saved, always saved??

[Marcia]

11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5.11-13

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Jn 5.24

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by natters:
dianetavegia said "I do not believe someone who is REALLY saved could 'unbeliever'" and later Godsend said "What about the parable of the sower and the seeds?"

Here's my answer to both:

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

The first group hear but do not believe and are not saved.
The second group receive the word and believe it for a while, but fall away.
The third group believe and stay saved, but are choked by worldliness and are unfruitful (leading no one else to Christ).
The fourth group believe and stay saved, and bring forth more fruit, their seed producing many others (leading more to Christ).

First look at Luke 8:11
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
(KJV)

Look also at Matthew 13:23
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hearth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
(KJV)

It seem to me that only on the good ground does the seed bring forth fruit. This fruit is eternal life.

The other hearers heard the Word of God but did not allow this to become eternal life because the did not understand it. They allowed other things to keep them from trusting Christ for eternal life.

 

[Blazin4Christ]

it says in the Bible no man can pluck us out of his hand, therefore it can't be taken from us, and if God wanted to take away our salvation, he wouldn't, because he PROMISED it, and he won't go back on a promise

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
When someone comes to me & says you can lose your salvation, I always ask, "well, exactly which sin will cause this?" They never answer.

Amen, Sister GrannyGumbo -- Preach it!

Everybody and their Preacher Boy has a "Plan
of Salvation" which tells how to be saved.
I have yet (and I am 60) to see a
"Plan of unsalvation".

But I love to praise Jesus in 17th Century talk:

Praise Iesus, the Christ

 

[GODzThunder]

here is a question, why do people believe you can lose your salvation? This doctrine is a scare tactic in essence. If you do not live in the fullest light then you will die and burn in hell no matter who you call Lord and no matter what type of experience you live.

Sad really, no one knows when death will occour so basically in the Christian life with the belief of loss of salvation you are living a gamble. We are sinful creatures and cannot avoid sin, though I wish we could. There is a large chance that we will die in the middle of a sinful act. Then we would burn in heaven. No one really has a chance at heaven if this doctrine is true

 

[MTA]

(Heb 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

(Heb 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

(Heb 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Hebrew writer is showing the absurdity of the idea that anyone could loose their salvation. It is impossible to be saved, fall away, then be saved again. Couple these verses with John 10:24-30 and you have a complete OSAS argument that is right from the Word of God.

 

[natters]

MTA, no, the writer of Hebrews doesn't say it's impossible to loose salvation, but that once it is lost it is impossible to restore it.

GODzThunder, committing a sin doesn't break the covenant.

Blazin4Christ, God doesn't want to take away our salvation (he will always be faithful to the covenant), and no one can pluck us out of his hand (no one else can break the covenant on our behalf). But we can break the covenant on our own.

Terry_Herrington, John 3:16 says whosoever believeth on him will have eternal life, but the parable of the sower has some (the second group) that believe for a while (their belief ended, their requirements of the covenant were no longer being met), but fall away. One cannot fall away from where they never were.

 

[MTA]

According to Albert Barnes, Barnes' Notes, "It is the same as supposing a case which in fact might never occur:" You might say, "had the child fallen into the river, he would have drowned, or if the ocean overflows the continent, everyone will perish." Those are all suppositions of what could happen, but not that they ever would happen.

It is impossible to fall away. We can grow cold, and lose the joy of our salvation (Psalm 51:12), but we can never lose the gift of grace (unmerited favor) that Christ imputes to us through repentance and faith. Once we have been saved, we become new creatures in Christ Jesus (2Cor 5:17). We are adopted by God and we are joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:14-17). We belong to Him and He is able to keep what he has purchased through His own blood.(John 10:28)

If salvation was contingient on our ability to keep it, we would all be destined to die lost and undone before God. You cannot believe God for life and salvation in one breath and deny that gift with the next breath. If you have ever truly been saved, you are still. The question those who believe they can lose their salvation should be asking is, Have I truly been saved in the first place?

 

[natters]

MTA said "It is impossible to fall away."

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1 Tim 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

2 Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If it was impossible to turn away, why does scripture repeatedly warn against falling away?

MTA said "If salvation was contingient on our ability to keep it"

It is not contingient on our ability to keep it. Our responsibility is not to keep our salvation, but to keep our side of the covenant, which is to believe and remain faithful and endure. If we do that, God will keep our salvation.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Hee is my list of best texts
ETERNAL SECURITY: ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED

John 1:12, 13 already sons; man cannot “out-will” God’s will
John 3:7 born again ONCE, not over and over and over
John 4:13, 14 one drink, then “never thirst” again for salvation
John 5:24 [has passed over: Greek perfect tense]
Rom 6:4 we are already dead, buried and raised with Christ
Rom 8:28-39
Rom 11:29 God cannot and will not change his mind or our calling
2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30 already received seal of Spirit as first-prof of salvation
2 Cor 5:17 already a new creation
Gal 3:26-29 already children; already Abraham’s seed
Eph 1:3 already received spritual blessings of our inheritance
Eph 2:8-10 have been saved already [Greek perfect tense]
Col 2:10 already complete in Christ (Greek perfect tense]
Col 3:3,4 already hid with Christ in heaven — very secure!!!
Heb 10:14 already perfect in Christ [Greek perfect tense]
Heb 10:19, 20 already entering intot he presense of God because perfect by faith
1 Peter 1:23 born by Word of Spirit which cannot be correupted
Note: The Greek perfect tense refers to past, present and future.
Russ Kelly, Ph.D.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Holy Bible has many great pictures of our
salvation. I only find one that seems to make
sense to be undone.

SAVED - unsaved seems to make sense

We are redeemed (bought back from slavery)
-- "sold back into slavery" does NOT compute

adopted into the family of God
-- "unadopted" does NOT compute

part of the Bride of Christ
-- "divorce" does NOT compute

gift of God
-- "gift return" does not compute

a new nature
-- "denatured" does NOT compute

part of the body of Christ
-- "disenbody" does NOT compute

 

[GODzThunder]

Ed good points indeed

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Yes Ed, good points!

 

[Trotter]

Anyone who wants to argue against eternal security will do so, and they will use the exact texts that Natters is pulling up.

It boils down to the question of whether you think God is big enough to hang on to us.

In CHrist,
Trotter

 

[Alcott]

If it's true you cannot lose your salvation, then is there any point in teaching that? If there are no means by which salvation can be lost, then it cannot be lost by believing it can be lost. But if a person believes he can lose salvation, and that motivation is what keeps him attending the worship assembly, being generous, looking with romantic eyes at no woman but his own wife, et al... has his belief hurt him or helped him?

And it should not be surprising how many Baptists are divorced, how many use profanity daily, how many drink but just try to keep it from their fellow Baptists. If they [we] follow that belief about it being impossible to lose our salvation, that is the result in many of those who hold it.

 

[Trotter]

Alcott,

The problem is that many who believe you can lose your salvation are trying to earn their salvation without ever trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ, without ever actually believing that He is who He is.

I mean, if you're going to have to work to keep it, wouldn't it follow that you could just cut out the middle man and do it yourself? If God can't hold on to you, why bother with Him since you are doing it yourself?

And where is the peace of God? How can one have any peace if he/she can never know that they are safe in Christ? So I guess Jesus was lying when He spoke of giving His peace, huh?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Craigbythesea]

The doctrine of once saved, always saved is almost exclusively a post-reformation doctrine. The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers very clearly taught conditional rather than eternal security. In the 5th century we find the first teaching suggesting the doctrine of eternal security, but not the doctrine as it is taught today in most Baptist churches.

Today, the large majority of Bible scholars still reject the doctrine of once saved, always saved. The primary exceptions are those of the Reformed and Baptist denominations, as well as most Calvary Chapel churches and the churches that have sprung up out of that movement. The Roman Catholic Church, all of the Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) Churches, the Lutheran Churches, the Methodist Churches, the Anglican Churches, the Nazarene Church, the Assemblies of God, the Church of God of Cleveland Tennessee, the Church of God in Christ, the Apostolic Faith Church, and most other denominations all teach conditional security.

The doctrine of eternal security as it is typically taught today has its roots in the teachings of John Calvin and his views regarding the sovereignty of God. Prior to John Calvin, the verses that are now understood to teach eternal security were understood very differently. And since the new interpretations are at variance with the Greek New Testament, Greek grammars written by Baptists who believe in eternal security have been theologically skewed to make these new interpretations plausible.

But even so, there are many passages in the New Testament that trouble some of those who believe in eternal security. Zane Hodges, for example, teaches that Matt. 25:30

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

is not describing hell, but a suburb of heaven where sinful born again Christians will end up. Joey Faust teaches that sinful born again Christians will end up in heaven, but only after being tormented for 1000 years (the millennium for the wicked). Others who teach once saved, always saved, but find many problem passages in the Bible, have distorted the Scriptures in other ways to accommodate their beliefs.

The doctrine of falling from grace is commonly known as “apostasy,” and Naves Topical Bible lists many verses that teach it. Be sure to look up the many additional verses that you will find by looking up the headings that are cross-referenced in italic type.

Apostasy
Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12
Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13
Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10
Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22
Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17
Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3
See Antichris

Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6
See Backsliders; Reprobacy

Instances of:
Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14
Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18
Amaziah
2Ch_25:14
Joh_6:66
Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18
Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20
Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15
See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel

 

[Alcott]

And where is the peace of God? How can one have any peace if he/she can never know that they are safe in Christ? So I guess Jesus was lying when He spoke of giving His peace, huh?

Matthew 10:34 -- Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I guess Jesus was lying when He spoke of bringing a sword, huh?

 

[DHK]

God is love. He loved us enough to send His Son to die for our sins (John 3:16).
But God does not love us because of who WE are; but because of who HE is. God is love. Therein lies eternal security. For God never changes; He is immutable. His love for us will never change; neither will his promises.
He doesn't love us according to our worth, or because we are worthy of His love. We are not worthy of His love. We receive it by faith. And his love is given by grace. If love were given according to worth, then worth could change. It can self-depreciate. We could lose our salvation. But God is love, and that love can never be lost since God never changes.
DHK

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Alcott:
If it's true you cannot lose your salvation, then is there any point in teaching that?

I prefer to teach
the truth. Fact is, that most of the New
Testament is about being faithful to the
call to salvation. Read the book somtime.

For example, consider the reason to teach
eschatology found in 2 Peter 3:17-18 (HSCB):
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have
been forewarned, be on your guard, so
that you are not led away by the error of
the immoral and fall from your own stability.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and
to the day of eternity. Amen.