Once saved, always saved??

[Craigbythesea]

Brother Russ,

Please forgive me for the attitude that I displayed toward you in the SDA thread. I thought that I was dealing with a half-baked potato, but now I see that I am dealing with a man who truly loves the word of God and knows it well.

You are correct, I meant to refer to John 4:14, not 4:13. "Whosoever DRINKS (aorist punctilliar one time event) this water will NEVER THIRST."

If one could fall from grace, then this stateement by Jesus would be incorrect because the fallen person would again thirst for God's Spirit.

It is my view that once a person falls from grace, he will never again thirst for God’s Spirit, and that he is beyond redemption.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB, 1995)

Craig and DKH
You both missed the part about John 5:24 which is most definitive. "Has crossed over (metabebeeken) is PERFECT TENSE just like "it is written." The PERFECT tense signifies once for all time completed action which stands in the past, present and future. Shame on you, Craig, for not pointing this out -- no dessert tonight.

24. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

24. Amen amen lego humin hoti ho ton logon mou akouon kai pisteuon to Pempsanti me echei zoen aionion kai eis krisin ouk erchetai, alla metabebeken ek tou thanatou eis ten zoen.

The Greek word metabebeken is a present-perfect verb in the indicative mood and therefore signifies past action that is either continuing into to present or past action that with consequences in the present. The future is never in view in the Greek present-perfect tense.

We have a very similar tense in English—the English present-perfect. For example, in the sentence, “I have been saved,” we have the English present-perfect tense signifying that I was saved in the past and that I am saved in the present.” Apart from theology, and looking only at the English construction, this sentence says absolutely nothing about my being saved in the future. We have precisely the same situation in the Greek New Testament—the future is not in view unless your theology says it is.

When the believer professes faith in Christ in the NOW, God reaches to the end of time and pronounces upon him the VERDICT of the final judgment, which is EVERLASTING LIFE. It would be sily for God to do that if He did not really meant it and would change his verdict.

This is merely your interpretation, and a non-historic one at that. There are very many verses in the Bible that refute this point of view, including the passage in Heb. 6 quoted above.

Your resPonse abouT 1 Cor 6:19,20 is also weak. You portray a puny and weak mortal man overpowering the HOly Spirit and grabbing God's property out of God's hand. Once the body is bought, owned AND INDWELT by God -- why would God allow us to steal HIS PROPERTY?

No, I portray a Christian with a free will to choose this day, and every day, whom he will serve.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
Craig
This thread is not abaout "once saved, always faithful." It is about "once saved, always saved."

Your dialog about those who fell in the wilderness in 1 Cor 10 assumes incorrectly that they lost their salvation. The Bible does not say that! They had been covered by the blood of the Passover Lamb, they had been baptized in the Red Sea and they had been given rules for sanctificed living at Sinai.

They sinned, they were severely punished, and they died -- including Moses himself!!! Do you actually think that only Joshua and Caleb were truly God's children??? Poor Moses -- what a waste!

Brother Russ,

The Bible does say that of the original 600,000 adults, only Joshua and Caleb crossed the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Apparently we didn’t take the same typology classes in graduate school.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So do you think Canaan is a type of heaven?

Will there be an Ai in heaven?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is not an ongoing process and could never be. It is a logical impossibility.

Why are you arguing with God? Or don't you believe that John 5:24 is His inspired word?
</font>[/QUOTE]I don't argue with God at all. And yes His Word is inspired. Let me post the WEB translation for you:

John 5:24 "Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

There are two things I want you to notice.
#1. The one who believes "has passed" from death into life. It is a done deal. The transaction is made. It was made at the point of salvation. The believer crosses the bridge from death to life, once he trusts Christ as His Saviour, and there is never any turning back, at least not as far as his salvation is concerned.

#2. What was done? What did he receive? It was "eternal life." As I mentioned before, eternal is only eternal when it cannot end, stop, cease, be lost, etc. Eternal is everlasting. If one could lose eternal life, it wouldn't (by definition of the word) be eternal, would it? I have never had someone who believes they can lose their salvation clearly answer this argument to me yet. How can eternal stop being eternal and still be eternal at the same time. Jesus said "I give unto you eternal life." Was He a liar if there remained any hint of losing it?
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

So do you think Canaan is a type of heaven?

NO.

Will there be an Ai in heaven?

No.

I thought you said that you have taken some Bible courses!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I misunderstood your post. I though you implied above that only Joshua and Caleb stayed saved until the promised land, equating it with heaven.

What did I do to deserve your venom?

 

[Craigbythesea]

#1. The one who believes "has passed" from death into life. It is a done deal. The transaction is made. It was made at the point of salvation. The believer crosses the bridge from death to life, once he trusts Christ as His Saviour, and there is never any turning back, at least not as far as his salvation is concerned.

As I have already explained, what he have here in both Greek and English is the present-perfect tense. No one who is familiar with either Greek of English Grammar could hold to such a ridiculous interpretation as you are presenting here.

 

[Craigbythesea]

#2. What was done? What did he receive? It was "eternal life." As I mentioned before, eternal is only eternal when it cannot end, stop, cease, be lost, etc. Eternal is everlasting. If one could lose eternal life, it wouldn't (by definition of the word) be eternal, would it? I have never had someone who believes they can lose their salvation clearly answer this argument to me yet. How can eternal stop being eternal and still be eternal at the same time. Jesus said "I give unto you eternal life." Was He a liar if there remained any hint of losing it?

Compare the Syriac translation of zoen aionion.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I misunderstood your post. I though you implied above that only Joshua and Caleb stayed saved until the promised land, equating it with heaven.

Dear friend, you are still misunderstanding my post. May I suggest that you do some typological studies on the Jordan River and the Promised Land, and try not to read into my posts what is not there?

What did I do to deserve your venom?

I am sorry if you were offended by my sarcasm.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

In my view, "Crossing the Jordan" is typical of a Christian life, not of wilderness wandering, but of walking in fellowship and communion with the Lord. Possibly the idea of the "victorious Christian life" where there are still setbacks and defeats, but the joy of living the kind of Christian life that God desires for us - indeed, the "Promised Land" here on earth.

I think this is born out by studying the various "rests" in Hebrews 3-7.

Just becasue someone disagrees with you does not mean they are idiots, or that they have not studied.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> #2. What was done? What did he receive? It was "eternal life." As I mentioned before, eternal is only eternal when it cannot end, stop, cease, be lost, etc. Eternal is everlasting. If one could lose eternal life, it wouldn't (by definition of the word) be eternal, would it? I have never had someone who believes they can lose their salvation clearly answer this argument to me yet. How can eternal stop being eternal and still be eternal at the same time. Jesus said "I give unto you eternal life." Was He a liar if there remained any hint of losing it?

Compare the Syriac translation of zoen aionion. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know Syriac, nor do I care to. It won't answer the question that I have put to you. It is quite simple. Words have meanings. Eternal means eternal.
DHK

 

[Charles Meadows]

Craig,

"The future is never in view in the Greek present-perfect tense."

What is a present-perfect tense??????

 

[Artimaeus]

According to the doctrine of temporary security there will be people in Hell who were at one time "saved". My question is, "What were those people saved from?" It is a ridiculous joke for them to have said, "I am saved." while they were on earth and then end up in Hell.

 

[natters]

Artimaeus, the answer should be obvious. While they were saved, they were saved from hell. If they had died while saved, they would have gone to heaven.

Salvation is a "new testament", a "new covenant". Covenants are intact only while both parties are faithful to the requirements of the covenant.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by natters:
Artimaeus, the answer should be obvious. While they were saved, they were saved from hell. If they had died while saved, they would have gone to heaven.

Salvation is a "new testament", a "new covenant". Covenants are intact only while both parties are faithful to the requirements of the covenant.

The only covenants that God made are with Israel, which ultimately will be fulfilled when Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation, "and so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26). We are partakers of the blessings of that covenant, which is explained in more detail in Jeremiah 31.
An interesting aspect of God's covenants is that they are not typical of man's covenants. They are always one-sided. The only covenant, if it is to be referred to one, is that which takes place at salvation. It is all one-sided. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved." This is God's "covenant" where God does everything, and man does nothing. There are no two parties agreeing to anything. Salvation is not by works. Salvation is the free gift of God. Man does not have to work for it. He does not pay part of the purchase price. He simply receives this gift by faith. The covenant is not a covenant, then, in the true sense of the word. It is a promise on God's part to impart salvation to all that believe on Christ, and to give to them eternal life. His covenant was made with the nation of Israel which has yet to be fulfilled.
DHK

 

[natters]

DHK said "The only covenants that God made are with Israel"

Not true. He made a covenant with all who believe in Jesus, who is the mediator of the new and better covenant.

DHK said "An interesting aspect of God's covenants is that they are not typical of man's covenants. They are always one-sided."

Not true. God's covenants were sometimes one-sided (e.g. Gen 9:9-11, the covenant made with man and beast to never again destroy all living things by flood), but usually they are two-sided (e.g. Gen 17:10-11, circumcision).

DHK said "The only covenant, if it is to be referred to one, is that which takes place at salvation. It is all one-sided. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved." This is God's "covenant" where God does everything, and man does nothing."

Man does NOT do nothing. Man repents, man believes, man has faith. It is two-sided.

DHK said "Salvation is not by works. Salvation is the free gift of God. Man does not have to work for it. He does not pay part of the purchase price. He simply receives this gift by faith."

True.

DHK said "The covenant is not a covenant, then, in the true sense of the word."

The entire "New Covenant" ("New Testament"), by its very existence, disagrees. It IS a true covenant in the true sense of the word. It's not called the "New Testament" for no reason. Not only is it a covenant, it is a better one (Heb 7:22)

 

[Russ Kelly]

Craig
I am not a half-baked nut case. I am a 59 year old former pastor with a Ph.D. in Theology with minors in Biblical Greek, Chinese Mandarin and Church History.

Since you are not equating Canaan with heaven, then you have confused all of us with your point that only Joshua and Calem entered and 600,000 died. Remember--- the 600,000 included Moses!!! My point about 1 Cor 10 is that those who physically died were not necessarily fallen from grace.

You miss the point about the PERFECT TENSE in the Greek. Regardless of what tense is being used, it still means a TOTALLY COMPLETED ACTION!!! If I have been totally, completely saved in the past --and-- If I am still totally completely saved in the present ----then logic dictates taht I will remain so in the future, or else the past and present were not complete.

I suppose you have the same explanation for the perfect- present of "have been saved" in Ephesians 2:8 and the perfect of "has perfected forever" in Hebrews 10:14.

I have enjoyed the dialog, but am spending too much time here away from my family. I will restrict myself to one thread at a time. God bless you and everybody else in this thread.

 

[Craigbythesea]

If I have been totally, completely saved in the past --and-- If I am still totally completely saved in the present ----then logic dictates taht I will remain so in the future, or else the past and present were not complete.

Brother Russ,

The temperature in my freezer has reached a temperature below zero (present-perfect tense, completed action), but if I unplug the freezer, the temperature will NOT remain so cold in the future. Therefore your logic is not sound.

 

[citizenofheaven]

Col 2:11 -
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

In this verse, the Bible likens salvation to circumcision. How do you get uncircumcised

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by citizenofheaven:
Col 2:11 -
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

In this verse, the Bible likens salvation to circumcision. How do you get uncircumcised

1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.