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Once Saved, always saved
- Thread starter Emily
- Start date
If "the law" says "do this" that implies a choice, don't ya think? </font>[/QUOTE]it implies that we are responsible to God, it is something of a paradox that simply means that we are held accountable for what we do even if we are a slave to sin we will be judged as the sinner we are. unless God shows mercy on who He has chosen, then the others will be shown justice.
sorry but it is like this>>Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Michael Wrenn said:
I explain it the way Romans Chapter 2 does. Those who have not heard the Gospel will be judged on the use they make of the light they have.
The whole point of Romans 1-3 is that all men, with no exceptions, are under condemnation for sin.
What you are saying is that even though God hates idolatry, if an idolator is an especially good idolator, God will accept him. That is absurd and contradictory to the jealous nature of God revealed in Scripture.
Makes a lot more sense and is more in accord with God's mercy, love, and other attributes than with the belief that all those millions who never heard of Christ will burn in an eternal hell.
Another false premise. Those who go to hell do so because they are sinners, not because they never heard of Christ.
massdak adds:
if that was the case the gospel certainly would not be good news
Indeed. If that were true, ignorance would surely be bliss, and sending missionaries would condemn millions to hell.
I explain it the way Romans Chapter 2 does. Those who have not heard the Gospel will be judged on the use they make of the light they have.
The whole point of Romans 1-3 is that all men, with no exceptions, are under condemnation for sin.
What you are saying is that even though God hates idolatry, if an idolator is an especially good idolator, God will accept him. That is absurd and contradictory to the jealous nature of God revealed in Scripture.
Makes a lot more sense and is more in accord with God's mercy, love, and other attributes than with the belief that all those millions who never heard of Christ will burn in an eternal hell.
Another false premise. Those who go to hell do so because they are sinners, not because they never heard of Christ.
massdak adds:
if that was the case the gospel certainly would not be good news
Indeed. If that were true, ignorance would surely be bliss, and sending missionaries would condemn millions to hell.
I was told not to post anymore because I am not a Baptist, but.. I am thinking that in this particular thread, that I might be able to post since I originated it.
Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine that I have always been taught, so it is just me,reading my bible by myself without someone to teach it to me, is where I get the idea that it isnt in the bible.
As far as those scriptures referring to persecution, yes, I understand that... and those that persevere through that persecution will be the ones who are saved.. Sure if I am being persecuted and I denounce the name of Christ, I wont be saved.
I guess I can understand as well about how if you try to talk away from God, GOd will come and get you. AS of yet, whenever I have backslidden, I have always started to search again not long after. God isnt letting me walk away. There are times when I wish I didnt believe, but I cant NOT believe in Him. A lot of it is fear, but a lot of it is that I have always felt connected to God, even as a small child. I had "quiet times" and my "prayer closet" even before I knew it was biblical to do so.. so I guess I can understand not being able to walk away, in that I dont think I could ever walk away totally. The Holy Spirit would always be whispering to me, if you know what I mean.
Its kind of hard though, because I know so many people who appeared to be way more spiritually mature than I who have just fallen away, and its almost as though they hate God now. My old Youth Leader, who used to be an incredible inspiration to me, is no longer following the Lord. The last time I spoke with him, he was very very rude to me. It makes me really sad because he really did worship God with all his heart. If you met him now though, you would definately say he needed his soul saved.
I guess Im pretty undecided for right now.
Doesnt it say somewhere in the old testament that God divorced Israel or something like that? Wouldnt that be like giving up some of his people?
Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine that I have always been taught, so it is just me,reading my bible by myself without someone to teach it to me, is where I get the idea that it isnt in the bible.
As far as those scriptures referring to persecution, yes, I understand that... and those that persevere through that persecution will be the ones who are saved.. Sure if I am being persecuted and I denounce the name of Christ, I wont be saved.
I guess I can understand as well about how if you try to talk away from God, GOd will come and get you. AS of yet, whenever I have backslidden, I have always started to search again not long after. God isnt letting me walk away. There are times when I wish I didnt believe, but I cant NOT believe in Him. A lot of it is fear, but a lot of it is that I have always felt connected to God, even as a small child. I had "quiet times" and my "prayer closet" even before I knew it was biblical to do so.. so I guess I can understand not being able to walk away, in that I dont think I could ever walk away totally. The Holy Spirit would always be whispering to me, if you know what I mean.
Its kind of hard though, because I know so many people who appeared to be way more spiritually mature than I who have just fallen away, and its almost as though they hate God now. My old Youth Leader, who used to be an incredible inspiration to me, is no longer following the Lord. The last time I spoke with him, he was very very rude to me. It makes me really sad because he really did worship God with all his heart. If you met him now though, you would definately say he needed his soul saved.
I guess Im pretty undecided for right now.
Doesnt it say somewhere in the old testament that God divorced Israel or something like that? Wouldnt that be like giving up some of his people?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Ransom,
Your declaring it a false assertion does not make it so. Millions have believed it to be true; I mentioned some of them before--Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc.
You said, "What you are saying is that even though God hates idolatry, if an idolator is an especially good idolator, God will accept him. That is absurd and contradictory to the jealous nature of God revealed in Scripture."
That is NOT what I'm saying, and you know it; that is a gross mischaracterization. Further, you have apparently not understood the message of Romans 2.
Those who go to hell do so because they do not choose to follow the light that is in them; if they do choose to follow it, more will be forthcoming. As I said, God judges them based on the use they make of the light they have--that is the message of Romans 2.
Sending missionaries condemns no one to hell; their destiny still depends on the choices they make, as does ours.
God knows the heart, and He judges accordingly.
The differences between the two points of view being presented here are as clear as day and night--and Calvinism is the night, pitch black and foreboding.
Your declaring it a false assertion does not make it so. Millions have believed it to be true; I mentioned some of them before--Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc.
You said, "What you are saying is that even though God hates idolatry, if an idolator is an especially good idolator, God will accept him. That is absurd and contradictory to the jealous nature of God revealed in Scripture."
That is NOT what I'm saying, and you know it; that is a gross mischaracterization. Further, you have apparently not understood the message of Romans 2.
Those who go to hell do so because they do not choose to follow the light that is in them; if they do choose to follow it, more will be forthcoming. As I said, God judges them based on the use they make of the light they have--that is the message of Romans 2.
Sending missionaries condemns no one to hell; their destiny still depends on the choices they make, as does ours.
God knows the heart, and He judges accordingly.
The differences between the two points of view being presented here are as clear as day and night--and Calvinism is the night, pitch black and foreboding.
Michael Wrenn said:
Your declaring it a false assertion does not make it so.
Correct. It is a false assertion because the Bible does not teach it to be true.
Any mention of being in Christ or having Christ in us in the Scriptures refers to those who are in the Church, not to the lost.
Millions have believed it to be true; I mentioned some of them before--Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc.
This is the third time this week I have been told I ought to look to the Quakers, or the Sally Ann or what have you for my doctrine, and the second time by you. Why?
If the Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc. say that even the foulest heathen has "Christ in him," then they are wrong, because the Bible teaches no such thing. It is as simple as that. Yes, "millions" can be wrong, and often are.
That is NOT what I'm saying, and you know it; that is a gross mischaracterization.
Well, don't blame me if you can't express yourself clearly.
Further, you have apparently not understood the message of Romans 2.
The message of Romans 2 is the same as Romans 1 and 3: that all men are sinners and subject to condemnation. The only part that might be taken vaguely otherwise would be 2:14-16, which actually says nothing more than some pagans live upright lives - but even so, their thoughts will accuse them (v. 15).
Those who go to hell do so because they do not choose to follow the light that is in them
The Bible says the wages of sin (not insufficient light) is death; it also says that men will be judged according to their deeds (Rev. 20:11-15).
Not surprisingly, the Bible does not say anything about judging people according to whether they follow the "light that is in them."
Thus, I reject your interpretation of the last judgment, of Romans 2, John 1, and your rejection of eternal security on account of you being wrong.
Your declaring it a false assertion does not make it so.
Correct. It is a false assertion because the Bible does not teach it to be true.
Any mention of being in Christ or having Christ in us in the Scriptures refers to those who are in the Church, not to the lost.
Millions have believed it to be true; I mentioned some of them before--Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc.
This is the third time this week I have been told I ought to look to the Quakers, or the Sally Ann or what have you for my doctrine, and the second time by you. Why?
If the Quakers, Salvationists, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, etc. say that even the foulest heathen has "Christ in him," then they are wrong, because the Bible teaches no such thing. It is as simple as that. Yes, "millions" can be wrong, and often are.
That is NOT what I'm saying, and you know it; that is a gross mischaracterization.
Well, don't blame me if you can't express yourself clearly.
Further, you have apparently not understood the message of Romans 2.
The message of Romans 2 is the same as Romans 1 and 3: that all men are sinners and subject to condemnation. The only part that might be taken vaguely otherwise would be 2:14-16, which actually says nothing more than some pagans live upright lives - but even so, their thoughts will accuse them (v. 15).
Those who go to hell do so because they do not choose to follow the light that is in them
The Bible says the wages of sin (not insufficient light) is death; it also says that men will be judged according to their deeds (Rev. 20:11-15).
Not surprisingly, the Bible does not say anything about judging people according to whether they follow the "light that is in them."
Thus, I reject your interpretation of the last judgment, of Romans 2, John 1, and your rejection of eternal security on account of you being wrong.
Matthew 16:24
New Member
If OSAS is true and the people who fall away were never saved to begin with.
Then none of us here can say we are going to heaven because maybe we will fall away from the faith later down the road and are decieved right now. People will say "oh, I believe in OSAS and those people (us) were never saved to begin with"
Does not make sense to me.
Katy,
I am right there with ya and I wonder the same things you are.
I go to a IFB church if you are wondering.
I go back and forth with this one but usually I try not to spend too much time on it anymore because I know the Lord is faithful and if I endure to the end, I will saved which I am willing to do.
So really it is not that big of deal unless you are wanting to go back to your old ways 100% or are living sin right now and are trying to see what you can get away with and still be saved. Note: Editorial you.
Yes Katy God did divorce Israel. He made them like the Gentile and when Christ came to this earth, He came for His lost sheep (Israel) who was now Gentile. Because of this, it gave opportunity to born Gentile to receive of gift of Eternal life through His ultimate sacrifice.
The people of Israel didn't loose their place with God, He had to do somethings to get their hearts right. When the time came, those that were His were still His because they believed, but to the others He says, I never knew you.
IfbReformer
New Member
You are correct in asserting that the General Baptists did not hold to an eternal security position. This is because of the influences they had from Europeon Anabaptists who were highly arminian.
Thank God Particular Baptists rose up at nearly the same time in England following the salvation theology of Martin Luther and the other reformers. But I am sad to say that even the particular Baptists, under the influence of the reformers, who were still under some Catholic influence did not come completely away from works in this area.
While they believe the believers salvation was secure, it had to be in their opinion, accompinied by a holy life and much good works althought these works were not considered a part of justifacation in their position.
The reason they took such a position is that the Catholic Church accused those who taught Salvation by Faith alone were teaching that people could live anyway they wanted and their salvation had nothing to with their works.
The reformers, not wanting to sound like those who would encourage people to sin, and especially when the church was considered such a part of law and order, retorted back that works were still required as evidence of salvation, but not as part of justifacation.
I believe that the eternal security position of today finally rids the Gospel of all Catholic elements that even the reformers failed to remove.
We are saved by grace through faith alone. Our works do not merit, or even maintain or prove our salvation. They are done in love for Christ.
God rewards our works, not because he has to, but because he wants us to never believe that our works are some sort of payback for our salvation. It is a one way transaction - God to us - period.
IFBReformer
What I believe
I believe that all humans have a sin nature and we are destine to go to hell BUT, Jesus came and died on a cross for us, because he was the only one who was perfect, so He was the only one that could. Since He died and paid the ultimate sacrifice, we are free to receive that gift of salvation and go to heaven. It is an awesome thing that Christ did for us. Sometimes when I think about it, I tremble.
I believe the only way to salvation is repentance and asking for God's forgiveness and believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that "Jesus is Lord".
I believe that after that, God commands to be baptized and to join a church, and fulfill the great commission through that church, leading people to christ, taking care of the least of these, etc..
Here is where we may differ
I believe in 2 types of churches.
I believe that as soon as you are saved and Baptized, then you are a part of Christs "invisible universal church" which isnt ever said exactly in the bible, but it is highly suggested and implied, sort of like the trinity.. and you are a part of the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, etc..
Then their is the local church, which should be locally goverened and independent. They should practice the Lords supper and sharpen eachother, life eachother up, fellowship, etc..
I may have left something out.. but, I love to answer questions.
I believe that all humans have a sin nature and we are destine to go to hell BUT, Jesus came and died on a cross for us, because he was the only one who was perfect, so He was the only one that could. Since He died and paid the ultimate sacrifice, we are free to receive that gift of salvation and go to heaven. It is an awesome thing that Christ did for us. Sometimes when I think about it, I tremble.
I believe the only way to salvation is repentance and asking for God's forgiveness and believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that "Jesus is Lord".
I believe that after that, God commands to be baptized and to join a church, and fulfill the great commission through that church, leading people to christ, taking care of the least of these, etc..
Here is where we may differ
I believe in 2 types of churches.
I believe that as soon as you are saved and Baptized, then you are a part of Christs "invisible universal church" which isnt ever said exactly in the bible, but it is highly suggested and implied, sort of like the trinity.. and you are a part of the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, etc..
Then their is the local church, which should be locally goverened and independent. They should practice the Lords supper and sharpen eachother, life eachother up, fellowship, etc..
I may have left something out.. but, I love to answer questions.
timothy 1769
New Member
John 15:1-8 (KJV) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Romans 11:17-22 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:17-22 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Massdack..
I dont have a stand in that subject. That is one question that I cannot answer.
It doesnt seem fair at all that God would send someone to hell for not believe Christ died for their sins. It doesnt seem just, and it seems totally out of charecter of God to do that.
I cant imagine what it would be like to be born in a country where the gospel has never been preached, and then when I stand before God He tells me that He never knew me.. How could I have? How could he hold that against me?
It seems unfair and meanspirited and evil and all kinds of things..
On the other hand, the bible says that we perish for lack of knowledge, and the wages of SIN is death.. All have sinned, even the people who never heard of Christ, so in that case, they would be going to hell anyways.
I dont think its my call to answer this. I just know that as a Christian, God has called me to preach the gospel, so I will.
I think when we all get to heaven, we will have such a greater understanding of what our roles on earth were, and we will even have more understanding of the greatness of God.
I dont have a stand in that subject. That is one question that I cannot answer.
It doesnt seem fair at all that God would send someone to hell for not believe Christ died for their sins. It doesnt seem just, and it seems totally out of charecter of God to do that.
I cant imagine what it would be like to be born in a country where the gospel has never been preached, and then when I stand before God He tells me that He never knew me.. How could I have? How could he hold that against me?
It seems unfair and meanspirited and evil and all kinds of things..
On the other hand, the bible says that we perish for lack of knowledge, and the wages of SIN is death.. All have sinned, even the people who never heard of Christ, so in that case, they would be going to hell anyways.
I dont think its my call to answer this. I just know that as a Christian, God has called me to preach the gospel, so I will.
I think when we all get to heaven, we will have such a greater understanding of what our roles on earth were, and we will even have more understanding of the greatness of God.
Sorry.. I shoudl have previewed my post. It came out ALL Wrong..
It doesnt seem fair that God would send someone to hell who didnt believe Christ died for their sins, if they had never heard of Christ in the first place..
that is what I meant to say..
It is very fair that if you dont chose God that you would go to hell.
It doesnt seem fair that God would send someone to hell who didnt believe Christ died for their sins, if they had never heard of Christ in the first place..
that is what I meant to say..
It is very fair that if you dont chose God that you would go to hell.
timothy 1769
New Member
What would be fair is for all of us to be immediately condemned to hell for our sins. Those condemned to hell are not getting unfair treatment.
may i suggest that you do a search and look at some of the concerns regarding altar calls, this may help you understand somethings regarding human fairness vs. Gods Holy mercy and judgments. our lack of understanding of Gods views on mans accountability especially given our inability to live a sinless life, this may seem unfair in human terms.