Once saved always saved !!!

[Ed Edwards]

Joh 15:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
If a man abide not in me, he is cast
forth as a branch, and is withered,
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The one who does not abide in Jesus
is cast forth as* a branch.

Men do something with that branch. Does
Jesus do with his servants as man does with
a branch?

I like the discussion we had on in another venue
that was about the punishment in the
Bema (Judgement Seat) of Christ in heaven.
Evidently the wipping posts in heaven will
have so much blood flowing from naughty
Kristchins that 1/3 of the seas on
earth will turn to blood.

* 'as' denotes a similie - a comparison
The comparasion is an unproductive branch
being thrown down - the similie is NOT about
what men do with branches that they
throw down.

Life that ends is not 'Eternal Life'.

 

[Brice]

To throw a little twist in here. If you can lose your salvation, at what point does this happen? Denial of Christ? Then Peter lost his. Murder? Then David lost his. At what point does this happen? My feeling is it doesn't.

 

[Brice]

Oh yeah Ed. I always enjoy reading your posts. You are a humble man and Christ shines through you, even when I disagree with your post. God Bless.

 

[HankD]

What of the servant who was completely forgiven, then later has his forgiveness revoked in Matt 18:23-35

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

This is not loss of salvation but chastening.

HankD

 

[natters]

Hank, revoking of forgiveness, throwing into prison, and requiring one to pay their own debt of sin is "chastening"?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by natters:
And what happens to those who the one who does not bear fruit? He is cast off and is burned, unlike the others who are pruned to bring forth more fruit.

Again, you presume falsely that this is an analogy for losing salvation. It is not.

That doesn't really answer my question. Are you saying it's possible to be saved and go to heaven, but not have your debt of sin forgiven and dealt with by Christ? Why then did Christ even bother with the crucifixion?

You're clearly putting words in my mouth. Right now, at this very moment, you have unreprented sins on your heart. We all do. So according to you, we are therefore not saved.

Sorry, scripture doesn't agree with you. If selected verses do imply that salvation can be lost, then scripture as a whole is a lie, since scripture as a whole continually tells us that a person's salvific state is not contingent upon any work of man.

If we can lose salvation by what we do, then salvation is based on works, and scripture is a lie.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Like Ed said all parables are stories you are not to build sound doctrine on them.

Please natters and straightandnarrow please use scripture that doesn't have a parable in it. Since the parables have already been delt with !

2 Peter 2 is not a parable.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What of the servant who was completely forgiven, then later has his forgiveness revoked in Matt 18:23-35

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

This is not loss of salvation but chastening.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]LOSS OF FORGIVENESS FROM GOD = LOSS OF SALVATION

LOSS OF GRACE = LOSS OF SALVATION

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by natters:
And what happens to those who the one who does not bear fruit? He is cast off and is burned, unlike the others who are pruned to bring forth more fruit.

Again, you presume falsely that this is an analogy for losing salvation. It is not.

That doesn't really answer my question. Are you saying it's possible to be saved and go to heaven, but not have your debt of sin forgiven and dealt with by Christ? Why then did Christ even bother with the crucifixion?

You're clearly putting words in my mouth. Right now, at this very moment, you have unreprented sins on your heart. We all do. So according to you, we are therefore not saved.

Sorry, scripture doesn't agree with you. If selected verses do imply that salvation can be lost, then scripture as a whole is a lie, since scripture as a whole continually tells us that a person's salvific state is not contingent upon any work of man.

If we can lose salvation by what we do, then salvation is based on works, and scripture is a lie. </font>[/QUOTE]Salvation is by grace. However, we must be born again. If not, there is no salvation. Right? Being born again is accompanied by a noticeable change in our life. If later we decide we preferred the old sinful life and turn our back on God, we have lost our salvation. We can regain it, however, by repenting and returning to our former relationship with Christ (abiding in Him). This is what happened to the Prodigal Son.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

How do you interpret "endure until the end?"

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I agree with StraightAndNarrow.

Christ said, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." - Luke 13:24.

Please explain to me, what 'strive to enter in' speak of?

This verse is a matter discuss of salvation issue. No way that we able to ignore or avoid it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Being born again is accompanied by a noticeable change in our life.

Yes, but the change in one's life comes after salvation. It is not a requisite work of salvation, as I'm sure you'll agree.

If later we decide we preferred the old sinful life and turn our back on God, we have lost our salvation.

That's where you err. If we revert back to our sinful life, it doesn't mean we lose our salvation, it means we have ignored the responsibility that our saved lives require of us. If you are correct, and turing back to our sinful lives makes us unsaved, then the change in our lives is a requisite work of salvation, making salvation works based. Scripture says differently.

The Prodigal Son did not lose his salvation. He turned from the responsibility that being in his father's house called for. If the PS parable were an analogy of losing one's salvation, then the father would have kicked him out of his house sans his inhieritance.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

How do you interpret "endure until the end?"

I fail to see how this supports an ability to lose salvation.

Look at the whole chapter, especially the surrounding context: "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

In fact, this whole chapter appears to be talking about the soon-to-occur destruction of the temple.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Please explain to me, what 'strive to enter in' speak of?

Again, this verse has nothing to do with losing one's salvation.

Jesus is responding to the question "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" Folks had gotten the impression that Jesus was teaching salvation will be restrictive. But Jesus is clear from the start: "Make every effort (strive) to enter through the narrow door." The suggestion is that struggle and obstacles will be presented in an effort to get through the door. One commentator says "Access to God is not a wide-open, take-anyroute-you-want affair. He sets the route's ways and means. [So many] will try to enter and will not be able to. Such restrictiveness would not surprise this Jewish audience, since it was already taught that Israel was God's elect nation... Second Esdras 8:3 reads, 'Many are created, but few are saved.' The surprise in Jesus' reply is not that access may be limited, but who gains entry".

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What of the servant who was completely forgiven, then later has his forgiveness revoked in Matt 18:23-35

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

This is not loss of salvation but chastening.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]You took this out of context.

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The lord (Lord) had forgiven a huge debt (ten thousand tallents) owed to him by one of his servents. This was a debt the servent was never going to be able to repay. This stands for our sin debt to God. But then the servent refused to forgive a small debt owed to him by another servent (100 pence).

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him." Since he couldn't repay the debt this would be eternal torment (Hell).

Here again in the scriptures, we see someone who was forgiven (saved) who lost his salvation due to his refusal to change his life and demonstrate love to his fellow man as Jesus commanded us to do.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Natters: //Salvation is a conditional covenant, because we need to believe to enter
it. Belief is the condition by which we enter the covenant - otherwise,
why do we need to believe?//

Belief is a gift of God.
Belief is part of grace.
Belief is not a work of ours.

We are saved by works - the works of Jesus.
We are NOT saved by our own works.

If it were not as I've said here, our salvation
would not be everlasting.

 

[Ed Edwards]

StraightAndNarrow: //LOSS OF FORGIVENESS FROM GOD = LOSS OF SALVATION

LOSS OF GRACE = LOSS OF SALVATION //

Assuming that these equations are true, then the
Doctrine of the Security of the Believer Teaches:

Once you are saved by Jesus, You can never suffer LOSS of salvation.
Once you are saved by Jesus, You can never suffer LOSS of forgiviness from God.
Once you are saved by Jesus, You can never suffer LOSS of Grace from God.

Assuming that S&N's equations are true, then the
The Doctrine of OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved, must teach:

ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS FORGIVEN BY GOD
ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS GRACE FROM GOD

 

[Ed Edwards]

StraightAndNarrow:

//Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

//How do you interpret "endure until the end?//

Not the best question. Here is a better question.
We know (Cause Jesus said it)

//Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.//

What does Jesus do the one one who endures not unto the end?

Thadius Oxnard thinks when you die like that, you go into
heaven but get your back wupped. The first couple of thousand
years in heaven the main form of entertainment is the angeles wuppin'
folks and splattering blood on the streets of gold.
Unfortunately, Oxnard's heaven is just like the Catholic purgatory

Wolfhaven Vandergraff thinks that inverse Polish logic
dictates the following to be true also from what Jesus said:
He that endures not unto the end, the same shall not[/b] be saved.[/b]

Unfortunately, real logic is not like inverse Polish logic

Real logic says the additional statement, like other additional statements
must be proven independently.
OK bible scholars: what verse says that this statement is true?
(I say NONE, but others may find it):

He that endures not unto the end, the same shall not be saved.

In Thessolonika there was the teaching:
Poor Joshua, he was a real soul-winnin' Christian, but he didn't
endure to the end. Yes, he got sick and died before Jesus came back.
To bad, we won't be seeing him in heaven, he didn't endure to the end.

Fortunately, Bro. Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians especially chapters 4 & 5
for those who believed this way. Joshua endured to the end (of his life)
and was saved and will be glorified in Jesus at the general Resurrection before
the Tribulation Period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Christ said, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many,
I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." - Luke 13:24.

//Please explain to me, what 'strive to enter in' speak of? //

Consider a lost man named Chaser of Women (sorry, i'm influenced by
my Native American friends ). He hears the Gospel (Good News) that
we no longer have to suffer the consequences of our many sins,
the consequences are eternal death. So he donates $1200 to the church
and starts going to tuesday night door-to-door witnissing to get
others into the fold. But then one day Chaser of Women finds out
God expects us to be one women men and in marriage only. Well, true
to his name, Chaser of Women does not confess his sin (agree with God
that chasin' women is a sin), does not repent of his sin, and
does not quit chasin'. Chaser of Women had strived to enter into
the strait gate and was not able to enter.

BTW, this also explains a think or two about one of the Sower of Seeds
parable Jesus taught. In neither case does one fall from salvation.
One may get close to salvation and even fool the Church Treasurer, and
still not be saved. Jesus saves, not adherence to some set of rules.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Being born again is accompanied by a noticeable change in our life.
---
JohnV: //Yes, but the change in one's life comes after salvation.
It is not a requisite work of salvation, as I'm sure you'll agree.//

Amen, Brother JohnV - Preach it!

And the reverse is patently false: Just because a person
has a dramatic change in their life is not PROOF POSITIVE that
Jesus Saved them. They might just be getting old and going mello'

 

[HankD]

Hank, revoking of forgiveness, throwing into prison, and requiring one to pay their own debt of sin is "chastening"?

It is a parable teaching a lesson that after we are saved we should forgive one another because we have been forgiven:

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

KJV Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

The core teaching of the parable is that the forgiving is horizontal between people and if the forgiving is not forthcoming then the "torment" from above is temporary and endures until reconciliation is made.
Hell is forever there is not "til he should pay all" in that place.

I can remember at least one period of time in my life when I said hurtful retaliatory things to my wife and was in mental anguish until I made it right with her.

Believe what you will. When Jesus tells me that I shall never perish and that I have passed from death unto life I hear His voice and believe it and "know" that I have eternal life (not life on Sunday and then perhaps death again on Monday).

HankD

 

[Johnv]

Amen, preach it back to me!!!

We Christians often try to be fruit inspectors, when we should be fruit producers and fruit distributors:

A saved person can be known by their fruits.

However:

* A saved person will not always produce fruit (especially true, but not only true, when a person is backsliding, or if one is a baby christian).
* Fruit that is not to your taste, is good fruit nonetheless (I hate cantelope, but it's still good fruit).
* Fruit production is not always obvious.
* Lack of visible fruit does not mean the person isn't producing.
* Just because it doesn't look like fruit doesn't mean it's not fruit (need I bring up the tomato and cucumber).
* Fruit production sometimes requires a dormant stage.
* Sometimes, unsaved persons can produce fruit that is similar to a saved person.
* and most importantly, it's not our job to run the production line.