Once saved always saved !!!

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you Bro. Phillip.

Most people like to argue about the
AS = always saved part.

Very few who argue such want to even talk
about the OS = once saved part.

Once saved by Jesus, a person stays saved by
Jesus.

For those of us in Christ:
We are saved to do good works; we are not
saved by our good works.

We were justified to do good works; we were not
justified by our good works.
We are sanctified to do good works; we
are not sanctified by our good works.
We will be glorified to do good works; we will
not be glorified by our good works.

 

[Roguelet]

Straightandnarrow said You really don't understand. Real Christians will continue to produce fruit. If they turn away from Him and act like everyone else they will be treated like the branch that doesn't produce fruit. It will be cast into the fire. What do you suppose the fire stands for? HELL.

You and natters do not understand what Jesus was saying in John 15. He was talking about those who were christians ( those who abided in him ) and those who were NOT christians ( those who did not abide in him )If you notice every time Jesus talks about those who abide in him they produce SOME kind of fruit even if it ain't much. You cannot be a christian and never be abiding in him, just the fact you have the Holy Spirit means you are abiding in him. PERIOD !

It is very simple if you take scripture to mean exactly what it says those who do not abide in Christ ( nonchristians ) will be tossed into the the fire. So you guys are right about the fire part but you are WRONG about who goes there.

 

[Roguelet]

Natters said However, the fact remains that scripture says the branch can be cut off of the vine and burned, the forgiven servant can have his forgiveness revoked, the sow that was washed can return to the mire, the one who is sanctified by the blood of Christ can later consider that blood unholy and receive the greater punishment, etc.

Ok I already delt with the branch and fire thing, that was easy. But i'm not sure where the forgiven servent he is talking about can be found ? Not sure where the sow one is either I do know that yes a pig is still a pig even if you clean it up, put perfume on it and treat it like a human. But once you let it outside it will go back to being a pig. Now maybe if you gave it a new heart and brain it would act different. That is the same with us. Luke 11:24 talks about the one who cleaned his house ( picture of works ) and he left and when he came back seven more demons came in and it was worse than it was before. You can try and clean up your life all you want but unless you have a new heart and new thoughts, meaning you have been " born again " you like the pig will go back to your olds ways. Again your example of a sow going back to its mire is a picture of someone who was NEVER SAVED

the one who is sanctified by the blood of Christ can later consider that blood unholy and receive the greater punishment,

Is no where in the bible either. where do you come up with this stuff

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Ok I already delt with the branch and fire thing, that was easy.

You did not explain how the branch was on the vine, i.e. attached to and growing through Christ. If they were never saved, they wouldn't have been Christ's branches in the first place. One cannot be "cut off" of something they were not attached to in the first place.

But i'm not sure where the forgiven servent he is talking about can be found ?

Matt 18:23-35

Not sure where the sow one is either

2 Pet 2:20-22

I do know that yes a pig is still a pig even if you clean it up, put perfume on it and treat it like a human. But once you let it outside it will go back to being a pig.
...
Again your example of a sow going back to its mire is a picture of someone who was NEVER SAVED

Who washed it, and what does that mean?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />the one who is sanctified by the blood of Christ can later consider that blood unholy and receive the greater punishment,

Is no where in the bible either. where do you come up with this stuff
</font>[/QUOTE]Heb 10:29-31

 

[HankD]

Naters asks:

I don't believe the Bible is wrong, or that God is a liar. Was he lying when he said the branch can be cut off the vine and burned? Was he lying when he talked of the servant who was completely forgiven having his forgiveness revoked?

naters are you refering to the John 15 passage? If so the term "cut off" is not used but the words "cast out".

The branch being cast out is presumably not part of the vine and never was so.

To those professing allegiance to Him in Matthew 7 He says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That is He says He never knew them not "I knew you once but not now".

Straightandnarrow said You really don't understand. Real Christians will continue to produce fruit. If they turn away from Him and act like everyone else they will be treated like the branch that doesn't produce fruit. It will be cast into the fire. What do you suppose the fire stands for? HELL.

Though I don't agree that the John 15 passage speaks of believers being "cut off", "fire" does not necessarily speak of the eternal damnation of hell-fire:

1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

HankD

 

[natters]

Originally posted by HankD:
naters are you refering to the John 15 passage? If so the term "cut off" is not used but the words "cast out".

The branch being cast out is presumably not part of the vine and never was so.

In this passage, Jesus is alone with the apostles. He said to them "I am the vine, ye are the branches" in the verse immediately prior. The concept is that branches that bear fruit are pruned to produce more fruit, but branches that don't bear fruit are removed and burnt.

To those professing allegiance to Him in Matthew 7 He says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That is He says He never knew them not "I knew you once but not now".

I believe this is a different group, those that only professed to be branches, but were not.

"fire" does not necessarily speak of the eternal damnation of hell-fire:

The fire in 1 Cor 3:13 is applied to all believers, it is a purging fire. The fire in John 15 is applied only to branches that are fruitless, not all the branches, and is a destroying fire.

 

[Roguelet]

Hank wrote

natters are you refering to the John 15 passage? If so the term "cut off" is not used but the words "cast out".

The branch being cast out is presumably not part of the vine and never was so.

Exactly Hank the verse never says that the one who DIDN'T abide was ever part of the branch. you can't take one verse out of the bible and build a doctrine on it.

I too agree that the word FIRE can mean and probably does mean REWARDS in fact that is what I forgot to write when I got back from church. Fire could mean Hell but more than likely speaking of rewards.

 

[Roguelet]

You forget natters that JUDAS was NEVER saved he was an example of all those who think they are saved or follow Christ for the wrong reasons but never KNEW him.

Read the verse again Jesus said " HE " ( not branches, dealing with people like JUDAS ) that didn't abide were not fruitless he said they NEVER abided PERIOD meaning they were never saved. Once a person is saved there will be some kind of fruit be it ever so small.

 

[natters]

What does "abide" mean? It means contiue to stay with.

I don't know if Judas was ever "saved" or not, nor does it matter to my point.

Read the verse again Jesus said " HE " ( not branches

Yes, branches. Read the passage again - branches are cast off and burned.

 

[Roguelet]

Ok after looking up again and doing a more thorough study it can only mean one thing and that is what Hank said.

I had asked my husband yesterday on the way to church what he thought John 15 meant and without studing it he suggested it meant the person who didn't abide wasn't saved since we know you can't lose your salvation.

But obviously this verse goes back to

1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Sorry for my misguiding post. My first thought was rewards but knowing Judas wasn't saved we thought Jesus may have been talking to those who were not saved that followed him.

Explain to me natters how you can lose your slavation please give some examples !

 

[natters]

No problem, Roguelet.

Originally posted by Roguelet:
I had asked my husband yesterday on the way to church what he thought John 15 meant and without studing it he suggested it meant the person who didn't abide wasn't saved since we know you can't lose your salvation.

With all due respect, that's the backwards approach. We shouldn't decide what we believe, then interpret scripture so that it fits our belief. If your husband didn't know that you can't lose your salvation, but rather was undecided either way, I wonder what he would have thought of the passage then.

But obviously this verse goes back to

1 Corinthians 3

As I mentioned to Hank, the fire in 1 Cor 3 is applied to ALL believers. It is a purging fire. The fire in John 15 in applied only to the unfruitful. It is a destroying fire (the fruitful are purged separately, verse 2).

My first thought was rewards but knowing Judas wasn't saved we thought Jesus may have been talking to those who were not saved that followed him.

Only the remaining 11 faithful apostles were with him when he was saying this to them.

Explain to me natters how you can lose your slavation please give some examples.

In the other thread, I just mentioned:

"How" can happen several ways. They can become again entangled in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20). They can give themselves over to temptation (Luke 8:13). They can be cut off due to unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10). They could be a new Christian put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6). He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15). He could desire to go back to how they were before salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39). They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14). They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35). They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ unholy (Heb 10:29). I think these sorts of things are intertwined, and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.

 

[Roguelet]

It's not a backward approach. I was in the car talking to my husband about the subject we read the bible and what it said and that is what my husband came up with. I should have studied it more, my first inclination was rewards like Hank mentioned. I know what the bible says about assurance of salvation and it all points to once saved always saved.

You have been shown to be wrong on every point you try to make in this thread and another one on the subject. but you keep trying to come back with something else which again has to be explained to you what the verse REALLY means.

I asked you to give me examples on HOW someone can lose their salvation and true to form of those who believe you can lose it CANNOT give me any examples.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
You have been shown to be wrong on every point you try to make in this thread and another one on the subject.

I have? I have had people disagree with me, and people tell me what they think those verses mean, but no-one has shown me to be wrong. One person tells the branch that was cast off was never saved to begin with. Another tells me they are saved, but being cast off and burned has to do with works and rewards. Another tells me it is about pruning unfruitful areas of our lives. Despite all this confusion, nobody is willing to directly discuss the fact that the branch is A. from the vine, and B. the man is the branch and cast off an burnt. Each of you accept A. or B., but nobody is accepting both A and B., but simply telling me "oh, it can't mean what it says, because I already believe something different". That doesn't wash with me.

I asked you to give me examples on HOW someone can lose their salvation and true to form of those who believe you can lose it CANNOT give me any examples.

Um, did you read the long list in my last post? Perhaps I misunderstand your question.

 

[Roguelet]

I just agreed with you that the branch is from the vine and I am sure most do agree on that fact.But there is no way Christ is going to send a Christian who isn't always " ABIDING ' in him to HELL !

That theoligy goes against what Christ did on the cross for us, we are saved by Grace not by Works so how can works " KEEP " us ? It can't ! your theoligy teaches a works based salvation, which is contrary to scripture.

 

[Roguelet]

"How" can happen several ways. They can become again entangled in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20). They can give themselves over to temptation (Luke 8:13). They can be cut off due to unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10). They could be a new Christian put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6). He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15). He could desire to go back to how they were before salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39). They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14). They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35). They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ unholy (Heb 10:29). I think these sorts of things are intertwined, and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.

So natters where are the verses to back up that these people can go to HELL ! These verses say nothing about HELL !

How can one be

UNBORN AGAIN
UNETERNAl LIFE
UNADOPTED
UNJUSTIFIED
UNSANTIFIED
UNFORGIVEN
UNRIGHTEOUS IF THEY HAVE JESUS'S RIGHTEOUSNESS
UNGLORIFIED
UNPOSITIONED IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS

Etc. Etc. Etc.

see where your theoligy is wrong. You cannot undue what Christ DID for you. there is nothing that YOU did to merit salvation and nothing you can do to unmerit it.
That is down right pride to say there is anything you can do to get to Heaven or earn Gods favor

JOHN 10:28
AND I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE ( Forever and ever ) AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN ( even himself ) PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND !
ROMANS 8:38-39

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
I just agreed with you that the branch is from the vine and I am sure most do agree on that fact.But there is no way Christ is going to send a Christian who isn't always " ABIDING ' in him to HELL !

See, you accept A but not B. Others are accepting B but not A.

That theoligy goes against what Christ did on the cross for us, we are saved by Grace not by Works so how can works " KEEP " us ? It can't ! your theoligy teaches a works based salvation, which is contrary to scripture.

I do not believe works keep us. Christ keeps us, his covenant keeps us.

So natters where are the verses to back up that these people can go to Hell !

Did you actually read the verses I posted, or just my summary? For example, for the one who hates his brother (1 John 3:15), you'd read "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

How can one be

UNBORN AGAIN

I don't think one is unborn again.

UNADOPTED

An adopted can later reject his parents and never be with them again. Does that make them "unadopted"? I don't know, sounds like semantics to me.

UNJUSTIFIED

I don't know.

UNSANTIFIED

Firstborn males were sanctified in the OT, but they could still turn away from God. As for NT, see 1 Thess 4:3 and Heb 10:29.

UNFORGIVEN

Again, see Matt 18:23-35.

UNRIGHTEOUS IF THEY HAVE JESUS'S RIGHTEOUSNESS

I don't know, but I would get they could be unrighteous again if they rejected Jesus.

UNGLORIFIED

We're not glorified yet.

UNPOSITIONED IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS

Ask Satan, he knows first hand it's possible.

You cannot undue what Christ DID for you. there is nothing that YOU did to merit salvation and nothing you can do to unmerit it.

But I still did something. I believed. That let me enter the covenant.

That is down right pride to say there is anything you can do to get to Heaven or earn Gods favor

Not even belief? Not even faith, which pleases God (Heb 11:6)?

JOHN 10:28
AND I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE ( Forever and ever ) AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN ( even himself ) PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND !

I've discussed "pluck" 3 or 4 times already.

 

[Roguelet]

Personally we have never heard someone say it meant going to Hell. forgive us for not being up on false doctrine.

Sorry but all your explainations are contradictory to everything you just said. You say you don't believe works keep us but that is EXACTLY what you are saying by saying those who do not abide in Christ get thrown into Hell. And all your other examples are all based on some kind of works.

You just contadicted yourself !

 

[natters]

Personally we have never heard someone say it meant going to Hell.

So 'Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him' is someone that is going to heaven?

You just contadicted yourself !

No, you misunderstand.

Do works keep you in a marriage? No. You remain in the marriage because the covenant remains, regardless of works. The covenant remains as long as the conditions of the covenant are not broken. Works were not the condition to enter the covenant of salvation, thus works are not what maintains the covenant of salvation.

 

[Roguelet]

Even your BELIEF came from God. He DREW you to himself JOHN 6:44.

He CHOSE you before you were ever born, before the foundations of the world. You had nothing to do with comming to Christ !

EPH 1:4, 2 THESS 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9, JOHN 15:19,

JOHN 15:16
YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU.

 

[Roguelet]

Natters you have to quit using marriage as your answer for everything. Humans are flawed, especially when it comes to relationships God isn't. Not sure who told you marriage examples are the bases for salvation and how we should live is way off.

After reading what you have written.I noticed you are way off on the covenants issue