"Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Linda64]

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Well the Bible speaks of those who left. Also, there is no mention of OSAS in church history until the time of John Calvin. Are we to understand that the church was wrong on this for 1500 years until calvin came along?

Tell us about those who left.

BTW, OSAS is another word used to describe what John 3:16-17 says.
John 3:16-17 was written BEFORE John Calvin.

BTW, I'm NOT Calvinist but Arminianist

So if you have a plan of un-salvation, then explain:
un-election
un-chosen

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Butch, this 'conversion' of yours is a temprary thing, if, before you really believed 'OSAS', because to have believed is to for ever believe!

 

[Butch5]

John 3:16-17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
16 For God so loued the worlde, that hee hath giuen his onely begotten Sonne, that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into the world, that he should condemne the world, but that the world through him might be saued.

I define OSAS as what ever the phrase "whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life" means. Note that verse 17 clearly says that 'saved' pertains to this phrase. So once Jesus saves you, you stay saved. Now you and I know that if believing on/in/trusting Jesus leads to salvation then NOT believing on/in/trusting Jesus would mean we would be UNSAVED. But if we 'should not perish but have everlasting life' then we would never be unsaved so we cannot stop believing. The meaning of John 3:16 does not allow for STOPPING believing. Doesn't have to be another verse (though I might find a few) that says 'the saved person won't stop believing' -- the definition JOHN 3:16 precludes it.

everlasting - starring point but no end
When can you check on 'everlasting'? At the two ends: the start (when you first believed) and the end - which never happens. People can't know the last day of salvation, the end of 'everlasting'.

Here we go, the three types of salvation

THEN (if you are saved) SALVATION
Justification Salvation
Jesus justification saves
Requires that the person believe (cooperate with Jesus, not a work of self)

NOW SALVATION
Sanctification Salvation
Jesus sanctification saves
Requires that the person cooperate with Jesus, not a work)

THEN SALVATION
Glorification Salvation
Jesus glorification saves
I guess you have to cooperate & let Jesus give you that new body, not a work of self

We are saved by WORKS - the works of Jesus NOT the works of ourself.

BTW, if you really do have a PLAN OF UN-SALVATION, please tell me how it works it gets you:

un-born-again
un-adopted into the family of God
un-born into the family of God
un-redeemed
un-justified
un-sanctified
un-glorified (for our Dearly Departed saints)
un-covered by the Blood
un-listed in the book of salvation
un-listed in the book of live
taken out of the strong hands of God
un-churched
divorced from the Bride of Christ
Body-of-Christ-ectomy (removal from the Body of Christ)
chipped off the Rock of my Salvation

Personal Salvation must be important to the Lord, He gave His life for it and there are so many word pictures of in the pages of the Holy Bible.

Salvation that isn't eternal AIN'T Salvation at all. Might be a feel-um good, eh?

Cute, but your logic on John 3:16 fails. The word believes in John 3:16 in the Greek is a present tense word not a one time deal as is intimate in your description. John 3:16 is more accurately translated the "whosoever is believing in Him",

John 3:16 ( YLT ) 16for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

This believing is present tense, it means the one believing right now. It is not, oh I believed last year so I am good for eternity. We must keep believing. Also notice that it says the one believing right now may not perish and may have eternal life. As long as one keeps believing then one shall not perish.

Also notice where this eternal life is it is in His son, so if you are not in the Son you do not have life. And there are many Scriptures that warn against turning away.

Also all of your un"s are unnecessary because if one is not "in Christ" then they have no salvation, eteranl life and shall perish

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"BTW, I'm NOT Calvinist but Arminianist"

GE:
You really are confusing -- me, things, others, I must conclude, you, are confused to be able to confuse all else.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

:thumbs: Amen, Sister Linda64
-- You can Cut & Paste Scripture with the Best of 'em
-- RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

 

[Butch5]

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes for those who continue in belief.
Also the Hebrews verse should red "who are being sanctified," either way it doesn't matter because if one turns away from Christ they are no longer being sanctified. Therefore they are no longer "in Christ" and are not perfected for ever.

Linda you will fin many verses like this, however they apply to believers. What needs to be proven is whether or not a person can believe at some point and then not believe.

Are the names of the lost written in the Book of Life?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Butch:
"John 3:16 ( YLT ) 16for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

GE:
Hi Butch, how do you read? You should not forget to notice "for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during;
and:
"For God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believingin Him may not perish, but may have life age-during!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Butch:
"if one turns away from Christ they are no longer being sanctified."

GE
If this happen to someone having been sanctified ... O certainly, they are exactly thereby - by having turned away from Christ - as by fire tested, purged, in order that they even further sanctified, shall remain in Christ, if to live their being tested through, to return to Christ their Salvation; or, even if to die in being Christ's, for Him to keep safe in his hand from the grabbing fingers of the murderer from the beginning. You can trust Jesus; you may trust in Jesus, for He is the faithful, even when we are unfaithful. O make Christ your comfort!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Edwards:
"BTW, I'm NOT Calvinist but Arminianist"

GE:
You really are confusing -- me, things, others, I must conclude, you, are confused to be able to confuse all else.

Calvin confuses me (I guess it is the German?)
but Arminius doesn't. Therefore & IMHO, Arminius is right.

Once :jesus: saves; :jesus: Always keeps you spiritually Saved or physically DEAD. (but the nice thing about Everlasting Life, it does NOT END when you physically die.

 

[Butch5]

Tell us about those who left.

BTW, OSAS is another word used to describe what John 3:16-17 says.
John 3:16-17 was written BEFORE John Calvin.

BTW, I'm NOT Calvinist but Arminianist

So if you have a plan of un-salvation, then explain:
un-election
un-chosen

un salvation = turning from Christ

Here are a few, if you need more let me know there are plenty.

1 Chron. 28:9
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
(KJV)

1 Tim 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

II Th 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(KJV)
Matt 24:9-13
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.
12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. (NASB)

Luke 22:31-32
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(KJV)

Rom 11:17-22
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(KJV)

1 Cor 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(KJV)


Hebrews 3:12 ( YLT ) 12See, brethren, lest there shall be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in the falling away from the living God,

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Butch:

"What needs to be proven is whether or not a person can believe at some point and then not believe."

GE:

Which is the easiest thing of all to prove! For how seldom if ever do we - God's children actually believe? How often more, rather, do we not believe, are we ashamed of Jesus Christ, are we his traitors. I you were looking for the faith of the saints, there is no saint of this earth I believe who would ever invite you, come, have a look at me!

 

[Butch5]

Calvin confuses me (I guess it is the German?)
but Arminius doesn't. Therefore & IMHO, Arminius is right.

Once :jesus: saves; :jesus: Always keeps you spiritually Saved or physically DEAD. (but the nice thing about Everlasting Life, it does NOT END when you physically die.

Wh ydo you physically die if you have everlasting life?

 

[Linda64]

Yes for those who continue in belief.
Also the Hebrews verse should red "who are being sanctified," either way it doesn't matter because if one turns away from Christ they are no longer being sanctified. Therefore they are no longer "in Christ" and are not perfected for ever.

Linda you will fin many verses like this, however they apply to believers. What needs to be proven is whether or not a person can believe at some point and then not believe.

Are the names of the lost written in the Book of Life?

Since you are the one who believes that a person can stop believing...can get "out of Christ", the ball is in your court. If a person can lose their salvation, then Christ died in vain and His blood wasn't sufficient to wash away all sin.

Everybody's name is written in the book of Life...but only the saved are written in the "Lamb's Book of Life"

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The names of the lost will be blotted out of the Book of Life at death.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

All the saved are overcomers because they are "in Christ".

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Butch:
"un salvation = turning from Christ"

GE
Simply, untrue! What miserable, hopeless misconception! Your attention is focussed on the wrong person in the contract of Salvation! See Jesus! See Jesus who followed man after in his turning away from Him ALL THE WAY to the cross and through the cross, to carry him in his arms, into eternal life through the raising of this rebel-child of His "in Him", and "with Him" through resurrection from the dead. That is the Gospel - Good News - of redemption through and in Jesus Christ --- for you and me, man, sinners! He came not to heal the healthy, but to save sinners. The first condition for you to be saved is to the sinner you are, Butch; like I first of all have to be me, who is no better than a child of the devil. Or Christ cannot save me.

 

[TaliOrlando]

Jesus also said in John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So please do not contend that Judas was saved. He was not for two reasons, he was a devil and no one was saved before the work of the cross.

Then how were the old testament believers saved? Just asking, always curious about that. As far as I understand they were saved because they believed that their Savious would come, they had faith that he would do his work.

 

[Ed Edwards]

My Eschatology points toward Security Salvation in Messiah Yeshua:

----------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

I've underlined a command to comfort each
other with these things. I personally don't see how
we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
we ask you" in verse 1 and
the falling away comes first.
The second is the only mention of the first
in the rest of the chapter.

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Again, there is no mention of 'departing the faith' but there is
a mention (Thes 2:1) of a 'gathering into Christ'.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invasion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
-----------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

Wh ydo you physically die if you have everlasting life?

I do not know the Answer to your Question. But everything I know about Messiah Yeshua, His blood shed for me, and His Witness of God the Father leads me to Trust completely in Messiah Yeshua and God the Father. If Jesus says we have everlasting life, then we have everlasting life (aka: OSAS) even if we Physically Die.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishnesse vnto him: neither can hee knowe them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Ed Edwards]

OSAS is NOT about the perfidy of Mankind;

OSAS is ALL ABOUT the fidelity of Messiah Yeshua
and the eternal fidelity of Father God.

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Defilnitions:
fidelity - faithfulness, true repetition of sound (electronics)
perfidy - opposite of fidelity
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[Ed Edwards]

I was Saved by Messiah Yeshua in April 1952 (56 Years and one month for those sitting in the dark with a light-powered calculator) -- I was saved then (everlasting life) as much as I'm saved now (everlasting life).

(people who are saved by themselves can wonder away, jump away, fall away, rescend away, etc.)

I am being Saved by Messiah Yeshua daily (including today: 23 May 2008) -- I am just as saved today as I was 56 years ago.

I am gonna be Saved by Messiah Yeshua when I return with Him to pick up the Living Saints or if Messiah YEshua comes to gets before I die - I won't even have to know physical death. Everlasting Life means 'should not perish' and 'be saved' and OSAS.

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Hashem be Praised!

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