"Once Saved, Always Saved"

[DHK]

?Who said so?

Take a course in hermeutics. It is common sense in the interpretation of parables. Parables never teach doctrine. They only illustrate it. That is why much of the so-called doctrine you have taught on this thread is skewed. Let me give you a little history. Early believers never allegorized Scripture such as you have done.
Historically proven, the first one ever to allegorize the Scripture, to develop the allegorical method of interpretation was Origen. Origen was a heretic, even declared to be a hertic by the Catholic Church. Some have given him the title of the Father of Arianism.

But the person that popularized the allegorical method of interpretation was Augustine, another heretic, but the champion of the Catholic faith. Now you have taken the interpretive method of two heretics and applied their methodoly as your methodology of interpreting the Bible. Is it any wonder that you come up with "strange doctrine" which is totally unbiblical.

 

[kevin hobby]

Take a course in hermeutics. It is common sense in the interpretation of parables. Parables never teach doctrine. They only illustrate it. That is why much of the so-called doctrine you have taught on this thread is skewed. Let me give you a little history. Early believers never allegorized Scripture such as you have done.
Historically proven, the first one ever to allegorize the Scripture, to develop the allegorical method of interpretation was Origen. Origen was a heretic, even declared to be a hertic by the Catholic Church. Some have given him the title of the Father of Arianism.

But the person that popularized the allegorical method of interpretation was Augustine, another heretic, but the champion of the Catholic faith. Now you have taken the interpretive method of two heretics and applied their methodoly as your methodology of interpreting the Bible. Is it any wonder that you come up with "strange doctrine" which is totally unbiblical.

...My point exactly, man said so...

 

[DHK]

...My point exactly, man said so...

I am glad you agree. You have answered your own question. "Who said so?"
Origen and Augustine, two heretics, said that parables could teach doctrine, whereas Bible believers recognized that they didn't. So we know where you stand.

 

[kevin hobby]

I am glad you agree. You have answered your own question. "Who said so?"
Origen and Augustine, two heretics, said that parables could teach doctrine, whereas Bible believers recognized that they didn't. So we know where you stand.

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

"as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up"

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief"

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory"

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me"

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"

"all these things happened unto them for examples"

"for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life"

...I could go on and on...

 

[DHK]

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

"as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up"

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me"

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"

"all these things happened unto them for examples"

Correct. And all of these statements are based on doctrine previously taught in the Bible, and support statements already made. The do not teach "new doctrine," but illustrate that which has already been taught.

 

[kevin hobby]

Correct. And all of these statements are based on doctrine previously taught in the Bible, and support statements already made. The do not teach "new doctrine," but illustrate that which has already been taught.

?Where have I stated "new doctrine" unsupported by "statements already made" (whatever that means)?

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"
"comparing spiritual things with spiritual"

 

[Lyndie]

"So then all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26). They have been set on a shelf for a temporary period of time. He has promised to preserve a remnant unto Himself.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). It is impossibe to "receive and reject, to receive and reject, the blood of Christ. Once received, one is born into the family of God and cannot be "unborn". He cannot be disowned by God. The gift of eternal life cannot be suddenly turned into the gift of "temporal life," making Christ a liar.

Thus you have set forth a conjectural statement of your own that holds no water. It is an "if this should happen," that the Bible teaches will never happen. Stick to what the Bible teaches instead of what your human mind teaches. God knows more than you.

You even have an unbiblical view of marriage. When I got married I said my vows before God and man: "until death do us part." Divorce is not part of the equation. It is unbiblical in God's sight. In God's sight we are married forever. Marriage is forever; just as salvation is forever. If you make a mistake after that, it is not God's mistake it is yours. What is done, cannot be undone.

Mark 10:11-12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

The choice at the moment of salvation is receive or reject Christ. That is a one time offer. Once saved, one can never be lost again, no matter what sin he committed. Was David lost when he committed adultery and murder? If David had died before Nathan had reached him would he have gone to heaven? Believers still have free will after they are saved--the free will to do evil as well as good. If they do evil will they go to heaven, even if they have a heart attack and find not the time to repent?

First of all I was usung a divorce as an example, and yes, it may be unbiblical but so are alot of other things, such as what David did. But sin happens, since we still live on this earth. As far as David goes, NOWHERE does it say he stopped believing, which is important in the context of what you said. Of course as human beings we will sin. We still live in the flesh. But it becomes a whole different scenario if someone turns away from God and stops believing.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

First of all I was usung a divorce as an example, and yes, it may be unbiblical but so are alot of other things, such as what David did. But sin happens, since we still live on this earth. As far as David goes, NOWHERE does it say he stopped believing, which is important in the context of what you said. Of course as human beings we will sin. We still live in the flesh. But it becomes a whole different scenario if someone turns away from God and stops believing.

One who is saved will not 'stop believing in God.' That is an impossibility! God's Spirit seals His own and testifies of Christ to those that are His.

So one cannot stop believing in God who is saved.

 

[Lyndie]

But see, thats what I don't understand. Once saved, we are to represent Christ, who is sinless and perfect, so if in The Spirit we can't stop believing, then why can't we stop sinning under that same power?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

But see, thats what I don't understand. Once saved, we are to represent Christ, who is sinless and perfect, so if in The Spirit we can't stop believing, then why can't we stop sinning under that same power?

Because the flesh wars against the Spirit. Read Romans 7.

Paul stated that the evil that I would not, that I do.

 

[kevin hobby]

I am glad you agree. You have answered your own question. "Who said so?"
Origen and Augustine, two heretics, said that parables could teach doctrine, whereas Bible believers recognized that they didn't. So we know where you stand.

...Your short term memory must have lapsed for a moment. My question, "Who said so", was in relation to your statement, "Parables don't teach doctrine" (Didachē = teaching...Parables don't teach teaching), not, who "said that parables could teach doctrine"...

?Where does Scripture state what your stating?

"For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth"

 

[DHK]

...Your short term memory must have lapsed for a moment. My question, "Who said so", was in relation to your statement, "Parables don't teach doctrine" (Didachē = teaching...Parables don't teach teaching), not, who "said that parables could teach doctrine"...

?Where does Scripture state what your stating?

"For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth"

parabole par-ab-ol-ay'

from 3846; a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:--comparison, figure, parable, proverb. from Strong's

Etymologically the word "parable" (paraballo) signifies a placing of two or more objects
together, usually for the purpose of a comparison. In this widest sense of the term there is
practically no difference between parable and simile (see Thayer, Dictionary of New
Testament Greek, under the word). This is also what substantially some of Christ's parables
amount to, which consist of only one comparison and in a single verse (compare Mt
13:33,44-46). In the more usual and technical sense of the word, "parable" ordinarily signifies
an imaginary story, yet one that in its details could have actually transpired, the purpose of
the story being to illustrate and inculcate some higher spiritual truth (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

There you have reliable definitions.
They are not mine. One is from the Greek itself, defined by Strong's
The other is by a reputable Bible Encyclopedia.

Your question is "Says who"
I just answered it for you. I trust you will at least take their authority as greater than your own.

 

[kevin hobby]

parabole par-ab-ol-ay'


There you have reliable definitions.
They are not mine. One is from the Greek itself, defined by Strong's
The other is by a reputable Bible Encyclopedia.

Your question is "Says who"
I just answered it for you. I trust you will at least take their authority as greater than your own.

...None of this supports your position...

 

[kevin hobby]

Para: beside - Bole: to cast

...Let's start around Matthew 9. Christ's message had been continuously under attack by the religious leaders...

"As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil. And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel. But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils. And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people"

...This strong resistance had great sway over the people of Israel. Skip ahead three chapters and notice the point to which they have been brought...

"And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils"

..."Mēti outos estin o uios daueid" the negative "mē" is used instead of "ou". This question expects a "no" answer. This is the point to which the religious leaders had mislead Israel. The "ti" softens the "no" expectation (Possibly this is the son of David, but we really don't think so). Why is it that they leaned more toward the negative?...

...Then we have mention made of the religious leaders committing a sin which will not be forgiven them for two ages...

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [toutō tō aiōni...the present age], neither in the world to come [tō mellonti...the one about to be]"

...Notice what happened next...

The same day went Jesus out of the house (Israel), and sat by the sea side (Sea = Gentiles "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest ... are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues"). And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables"

...Here we have the first instance within Matthews Gospel of Christ speaking in parables. The religious leaders and consequently, much of Israel, had rejected the previously revealed truth, thus when further truth is cast along beside the previously revealed truth, they will not understand it...

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven [lit. 'the kingdom of the heavens'], but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

...Christ was sent, “only to the lost sheep of Israel”, preaching, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] is near”, as He “went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness”, “The scribes and the Pharisees” who “sit in Moses’ seat” “shut the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] in men’s faces” because they were constantly “looking for a reason to accuse Jesus” and to “to catch him in his words” saying things like, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy” and although “all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David”, “when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils” and eventually “the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus”...

...Israel was, at that time and remains, to this day, sick, because they did “not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes” and all of the curses outlined in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 were (and still are) upon them...

Isaiah 1
Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

...The healings which Christ preformed were signs to Israel, not only demonstrating that Christ was sent by God, as Nicodemus stated “we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him”, but to point to the fact that the whole nation could be healed of their sickness if the nation would repent, as is outlined in Deuteronomy 30...

Deuteronomy 30
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

...His message was rejected, His signs were rejected and "The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side"..."And he spake many things unto them in parables"...

 

[steaver]

...My point is, why not center this dialog around comparing Scripture with Scripture instead of what "the powers that be" might think...

Kevin, you are caught up in an illusion of the mind. I have a flesh and blood brother who is also.

This topic has been thoroughly examined here on this board in light of scripture and has failed miserably at every twist and turn. It is bogus!

I pray you come to know the truth of God's word and abandon this noise the devil has bewitched you with.

If I don't get to talk with you again soon, I want to say God bless you and I hope you shake this off and get real busy for Christ in sound doctrines.

I suspect you will not be with us here long, unless you abandon the 'salvation of the soul' nonsense by Watchman Nee and Arlen Chitwood.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[kevin hobby]

Kevin, you are caught up in an illusion of the mind. I have a flesh and blood brother who is also.

This topic has been thoroughly examined here on this board in light of scripture and has failed miserably at every twist and turn. It is bogus!

I pray you come to know the truth of God's word and abandon this noise the devil has bewitched you with.

If I don't get to talk with you again soon, I want to say God bless you and I hope you shake this off and get real busy for Christ in sound doctrines.

I suspect you will not be with us here long, unless you abandon the 'salvation of the soul' nonsense by Watchman Nee and Arlen Chitwood.

God bless! :thumbs:

...If you can show this to me with Scripture then please do it...

 

[steaver]

...If you can show this to me with Scripture then please do it...

I don't believe you can be shown. I believe your mind (by your own choosing) is set and firm. If you truly had doubts about this view of scripture then you could be persuaded. But i have went toe to toe with more than a couple Mellinnium Exclusionist and when they get backed up into a corner they refuse to answer tough questions that destroy the position. I have a brother caught up in this and his former pastor that I have sat down with for hours and at the end they came up short on answers, but refused to see it any other way. There was a few on here awhile back also who were sent packing with their tails dragging. This doctrine of demons has no value in the body of Christ. Answer that one question, what value does it have for me a Christian? If I believed it to be true, what would change in my life?

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[kevin hobby]

If I believed it to be true, what would change in my life?

...Well, for one thing your understanding of Scripture (all of the warnings directed to believers would make perfect sense) and of the eternal assurance which is your present possession, based solely upon the finished work of Christ...

"Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old."

 

[steaver]

...Well, for one thing your understanding of Scripture (all of the warnings directed to believers would make perfect sense) and of the eternal assurance which is your present possession, based solely upon the finished work of Christ...

they already make perfect sense to me and I have eternal assurance. I do not need "salvation of the soul" to cause me to behave in any other way then the scriptures command me to behave. So my question remains unanswered, how would my life change if i believed in this? I personally know the lives of my brother and his pastor who are dead set on this view and from what i observe they are not to awful concerned about their own possiblity of outer darkness (if you know what i mean).

Tell me how can I know for sure I will not be cast into outer darkness? What is the standard? Be holy as He is holy? I break one commandment and I am guilty of breaking the whole law. How many good deeds will assure me a position in the Mellinnium?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Colossians declares that Christ will present His saved ones before the Father... blameless. Nowhere is the child of God cast into outer darkness. The Mercy Eliminated proponents would have you believe that Christ will cast many of His away, but that is contrary to His Holy Word, contrary to His Holy nature, and contrary to His promise never to cast us away.

Mercy Eliminated/ Millenial Exclusion is a false doctrine.