"Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Cutter]

Earth to Butch5, earth to Butch5. You and I have already proven someone can believe and it does not mean they are saved. The Word has to take root! Something that has not taken place in the scripture you continue to reference.

 

[Bible-boy]

Matthew 18:12-13 ( KJV ) 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

The problem you are running into here is that you are not applying sound hermeneutics to your interpretation of the passage. This is a parable that Jesus spoke. He is talking about a shepherd man going to look for a lost sheep. The point Jesus was teaching his followers is that they ought to be like the shepherd, willing to leave the flock (the saved believers) in order to go out and to seek and save the lost (sinners). If you had included Mt.18:10-11, and 14 in your text quote that would have provided the full context of the passage making the meaning of the parable clear. However, you only quoted two verses out of context in this case in an attempt to prove an apparently misinformed presuposition.

 

[Butch5]

The problem you are running into here is that you are not applying sound hermeneutics to your interpretation of the passage. This is a parable that Jesus spoke. He is talking about a shepherd man going to look for a lost sheep. The point Jesus was teaching his followers is that they ought to be like the shepherd, willing to leave the flock (the saved believers) in order to go out and to seek and save the lost (sinners). If you had included Mt.18:10-11, and 14 in your text quote that would have provided the full context of the passage making the meaning of the parable clear. However, you only quoted two verses out of context in this case in an attempt to prove an apparently misinformed presuposition.

Is it your contention that the sheep cannot be lost?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus keeps all that the Father gives Him and not one of them is lost.

Judas was given to Jesus by the Father and he was lost.

 

[Butch5]

You are implying that Christ cannot find one of His that has wandered off!

Paul sinned quite often. In all his sinning, Paul never once said he lost his salvation.

How sad that one would preach a doctrine of fear of losing one's salvation when Christ, the good Shepherd is his or her keeper!

If you find it sad you must take that up with the Scriptures. I have not implied that Christ in not able. However man is able to turn from God.

 

[DHK]

Is it your contention that the sheep cannot be lost?

My contention (as well as others) is that you are trying to teach doctrine from a parable. Parables do not teach doctrine; they illustrate doctrine already previously established. But you are trying to introduce something new via a parable. That is not what parables are for and not hermeneutically correct. In this way you distort the teaching of Christ and your result is unsound Biblical teaching.

 

[DHK]

Judas was given to Jesus by the Father and he was lost.

Where does it say that the Father gave Judas to Jesus? I would like you to verify that with Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Earth to Butch5, earth to Butch5. You and I have already proven someone can believe and it does not mean they are saved. The Word has to take root! Something that has not taken place in the scripture you continue to reference.

You said,

If a man comes in the church and believes that the preacher is an honest man and believes that what he has preached is the truth, does that mean he is saved.

First, this question doesn't deal with the issue because this man went in and heard and believed what he heard. When Jesus says they believed it includes more than just hearing a preacher utter words, it means following, it means entrusting oneself to, just a those in John 6,

John 6:66-68 ( KJV ) 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

I guess these also didn't believe?

 

[Cutter]

You said,

If a man comes in the church and believes that the preacher is an honest man and believes that what he has preached is the truth, does that mean he is saved.

First, this question doesn't deal with the issue because this man went in and heard and believed what he heard. When Jesus says they believed it includes more than just hearing a preacher utter words, it means following, it means entrusting oneself to, just a those in John 6,

John 6:66-68 ( KJV ) 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

I guess these also didn't believe?

Even if these you speak of did believe they were not saved. No one was saved until after the work of the cross was complete.

 

[Butch5]

Where does it say that the Father gave Judas to Jesus? I would like you to verify that with Scripture.

Hi DHK,

Sure,


John 17:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Butch5]

Even if these you speak of did believe they were not saved. No one was saved until after the work of the cross was complete.

You are correct, it was not my contention that they were saved. I was showing that man can turn from Christ.

 

[Cutter]

Jesus also said in John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So please do not contend that Judas was saved. He was not for two reasons, he was a devil and no one was saved before the work of the cross.

 

[Cutter]

You are correct, it was not my contention that they were saved. I was showing that man can turn from Christ.

Why bother even bringing them up then? Surely you are not trying to compare a regenerated believer to someone that followed Christ around when He walked among men.

 

[Butch5]

My contention (as well as others) is that you are trying to teach doctrine from a parable. Parables do not teach doctrine; they illustrate doctrine already previously established. But you are trying to introduce something new via a parable. That is not what parables are for and not hermeneutically correct. In this way you distort the teaching of Christ and your result is unsound Biblical teaching.

I think you may have missed a post. I was not the one who brought up the parable. Standingfirm said,

StandingfirminChrist---Christ likens Himself in the Gospel of John as the Good Shepherd.

When one of the flock that belongs to the shepher wanders off, the shepherd goes and finds that one and brings it back into the fold.

Christ is the same way. He knows who is His. When those that are His wander off, He goes and get's 'em and restores them to the fold.

in support of OSAS. I was merely pointing where the verse says "if he finds it"

 

[Butch5]

Why bother even bringing them up then? Surely you are not trying to compare a regenerated believer to someone that followed Christ around when He walked among men.

You don't believe they were regeneated? If not why?

 

[Bible-boy]

Is it your contention that the sheep cannot be lost?

It is my contention that you are misusing the parable, by cherry picking the text you want, while ingoring the full context of the passage in order to support a misinformed presupposition. Read the full conext of the passage starting at 18:10-14.

It is clear that Jesus is using the example of a shepherd, something His followers would have been very familiar with, to teach a very specific point. That point being:

1. The Son of Man (Jesus Christ) has come to save that which is lost (Mt. 18:11). Here He is talking about His mission in leaving heaven at the Will of the Father to come here to save all of God's fallen creation.

2. He uses the parable of the shepherd and the lost sheep to illustrate the point that His followers ought to be busy about doing the same thing. He is telling them that they should be willing to leave the flock (the saved believers) behind and go out to seek and save (by proclaiming the Gospel) those that are lost sinners (Mt. 18:12-13).

3. This teaching also applies to sharing the Gospel with little children (Mt. 18:10, 14).

Plus in a broader conext the preceeding verses in Mt. 18:6-10 also make it clear God cares greatly for little children and as such one of our highest priorities as Christians is to protect them from all sorts of evil.

Now back to the point you are trying to make. One of the best quotes that I know regarding how we are to read, understand, and interpret the Scriptures come from Gordon Fee's How to Read the Bible for all it is Worth. Fee says:

You can never make the Scripture say what it never said in the first place.

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK,

Sure,


John 17:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

It doesn't serve the point you are trying to make. Why do you take Scripture out of context? The only reason that the son of perdition was given, was to fulfill prophecy and accomplish the will of God.

It was in God's will to use Pharaoh also to show forth God's almighty power to the nations round about.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus also said in John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So please do not contend that Judas was saved. He was not for two reasons, he was a devil and no one was saved before the work of the cross.

I didn't say Judas was saved, however he was given to Christ by the Father

 

[Butch5]

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

It doesn't serve the point you are trying to make. Why do you take Scripture out of context? The only reason that the son of perdition was given, was to fulfill prophecy and accomplish the will of God.

It was in God's will to use Pharaoh also to show forth God's almighty power to the nations round about.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

What is your point? The Scripture is not out of context. Judas was Given to Christ by the Father and he was lost.

 

[Cutter]

You don't believe they were regeneated? If not why?

The only thing that regenerates the heart and redeems fallen man is the Blood of Christ. When they were following Christ around He had not yet offered His blood as a sacrifice for their sin debt.