Once Saved Always Saved?

[JSM17]

Some Christians deal with the passages concerning falling away by claiming they are hypothetical. "IF" a person could depart from God, he could not return. But, it makes no sense for God to constantly warn us against apostasy if it were not possible. These are not idle threats. The Word of God gives us examples of real people who departed from God through unbelief.
1 Tim 1:19-20
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(KJV)

Paul warned Timothy to guard his faith. He stated clearly that some had abandoned their faith and shipwrecked. Then he named two acquaintances, Hymenaeus and Alexander, who became apostates by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In Second Timothy, written soon after, we find Hymenaeus is up to mischief.

2 Tim 2:16-18
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(KJV)

Apparently, Hymenaeus was not content to make shipwreck of his own faith. Now, we find him teaching false doctrine [eschatology] and thereby overthrowing the faith of others. It was common in the early Church for people to abandon the Apostle's doctrine in order to get their own following. Paul warned the Ephesian Elders of this very thing.

Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
(KJV)

Paul knew, both by revelation and experience that people like Hymenaeus would abandon Christ because of a lust for fame and power. Incidentally, did you notice what Hymenaeus was teaching? He was teaching false doctrine concerning eschatology. He taught that the resurrection was already past. False doctrine can lead people away from Christ and damage their faith. Others leave because they get their eyes off Christ and His Kingdom and on the sin of materialism.

2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; ...
(KJV)

Paul warned Timothy extensively about the lure of materialism. Apparently, many believers had quit and become entangled in the lust for money.

1 Tim 6:10
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
(KJV)

This brings to mind the parable of the Sower. Remember, some fell among "thorns." Jesus said the "thorns" were the cares of this world and the love of money, which after the seed has sprouted, and begun to grow, they choke the Word, and the plant dies.

These examples of Christians who's faith failed because of a love of money or power demonstrate that the warnings in Scripture about falling away are real.

 

[DHK]

JSM17,
Your position seems to be that one must be:
born again and again and again and again. Is that so?

 

[OldRegular]

JSM17

You make one statement that may be true [Post 281]: "It was common in the early Church for people to abandon the Apostle's doctrine in order to get their own following." That is definitely true today. Many denominations including the COC have abandoned the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.[Jude 1:3] and instead give heed to the commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [Titus 1:4] embracing the error [possibly heresy] of baptismal regeneration and the heresy that GOD is unable to keep eternally those who are His, contrary to the clear teaching of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[JSM17]

JSM17,
Your position seems to be that one must be:
born again and again and again and again. Is that so?

Can you show me from my last post where this statement you have made is true.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Old Regular: and the heresy that GOD is unable to keep eternally those who are His, contrary to the clear teaching of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

HP: Your insinuation does not have the least iota of truth to it. Show us where anyone on this list every has stated that God is not able to keep those that are His. No one has stated or implied any such thing. You are making up your own argument out of thin air. You fight as one that beateth the air. You create a straw man argument and then try to stick in on you opponent when your opponent has neither said nor implied any such thing. If any has, show us with a quote. If you cannot, you need to retract your statement and restate it in a manner consistent with the truth.

 

[DHK]

Can you show me from my last post where this statement you have made is true.

Not just your last post, but from the tenor of most of your posts. For example, from post #52

The earliest Christians taught that perseverance was not guarenteed, and that many true Christians would not finish the race, and would be lost. Intense persecution in the early Church brought this issue to the fore. Some were faithful even to martyrdom, and others forsook the Faith when faced with death or torture.

This quote sums up fairly well what you believe. What do we conclude from it?
1. That one who strays from the word can never be saved again? Is that what you believe? If they can be saved again, then they would be born again and again. Right? They would keep on being born again or being saved multiple times, as many times as they stray from God, Or:

2. They stray from God one time, and BANG! The Holy Spirit departs, never more convicts of sin; they live their lives entirely apart from God without any chance of being saved the rest of their lives. Apart from God's teaching that he is longsuffering not willing that any should perish you would still believe that a person who strays one time from God has sealed their fate forever and there remains no chance for forgiveness of sin after that.

Both are positions are absurdities. I hope you can see that.
The only logical and Biblical position is the eternal security of the believer.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Your position seems to be that one must be:
born again and again and again and again. Is that so?

HP: I know you are speaking to JSM17 here, but shall we get fair? I have attended plenty of services that call on making a 'recommitment' over and over and over again. Where is the Biblical mandate for that concept? Scripture does speak of ‘doing ones first works over again.’ Tell us what that means? Then, show us one passage that ever speaks of the ‘recommitment’ we hear of on almost an every Sunday occasion in many churches.

 

[JSM17]

They stray from God one time, and BANG! The Holy Spirit departs,

First it is not a I sinned once and "BANG" I no longer have the H.S. I believe that 1 John 1:7 declares that when we sin and if confess our sins then we are covered by the blood of Christ and remain in the light.

What does it mean to quench the Spirit?
1 Thess 5:19
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
NKJV

NT:4570
sbennumi (sben'-noo-mee); a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish (literally or figuratively):
KJV - go out, quench.

 

[OldRegular]

HP: Your insinuation does not have the least iota of truth to it. Show us where anyone on this list every has stated that God is not able to keep those that are His. No one has stated or implied any such thing. You are making up your own argument out of thin air. You fight as one that beateth the air. You create a straw man argument and then try to stick in on you opponent when your opponent has neither said nor implied any such thing. If any has, show us with a quote. If you cannot, you need to retract your statement and restate it in a manner consistent with the truth.

Make up your mind what you believe HP.

HP, post #253: Who are you trying to offend or pick a fight with? (just kidding)

I believe salvation is thought of in three senses. Entering in by repentance and faith, walking by faith in obedience in this present world, and final culmination when we stand before God in judgment and find with 'absolute knowledge' that indeed Christ is our Advocate. Think of it!

So, (not just to be difficult,) I believe salvation ‘initially’ can be thought of as a free gift in that there is nothing one can do to merit it. That does not mean that God has not placed conditions for us to fulfill, ‘without which’ no salvation can be received.

Our hope, if it is to be maintained, indeed does require obedience as you point out. It is not that our obedience merits anything including our salvation, but that again it is thought of as a condition in the sense of ‘not without which.’ Without contiued obedience our hope of eternal salvation cannot be or remain certain until the end.

It would appear to me that we are not far from at least some agreement, would you not agree?

 

[Amy.G]

First it is not a I sinned once and "BANG" I no longer have the H.S. I believe that 1 John 1:7 declares that when we sin and if confess our sins then we are covered by the blood of Christ and remain in the light.

What does it mean to quench the Spirit?
1 Thess 5:19
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
NKJV

NT:4570
sbennumi (sben'-noo-mee); a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish (literally or figuratively):
KJV - go out, quench.

To "quench" the Spirit means that we are not to ignore the gifts of the Holy Spirit. His spiritual gifts are to be used. But God does not force us to use them. To quench the Spirit is to have a gift given by God and refuse to use it.

Do you really think that you have authority over God's Spirit and can snuff Him out?? You cannot make God leave you. You do not have the authority to do that.

 

[InChrist]

2Cr 5:18 - 21
And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It is GOD, through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, who reconciles (puts to right; settles; reunites) us to Himself. Faith in His once for all offered reconciliation is the activating agent of that reconciliation in each individual's life. At the point of a believer's salvation, when we are reconciled to God, there is an exchange that takes place. Our sin (past, present, future because remember the sacrifice was ONCE for ALL)

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

is placed upon Jesus Christ... He who knew no sin, became sin for us.... and we in turn are clothed with HIS righteousness.

We have been washed by the blood of the Lamb. We have been redeemed! The righteousness of Christ which we ARE clothed with, is WITHOUT blemish and WITHOUT spot, and is NOT corruptible!

1 Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If His blood, His righteousness COULD be blemished, then the sacrificial offering of His life for the world, would be without effect for ANYBODY!

Upon salvation we are imputed with HIS righteousness.

And upon the cross, Jesus Christ was imputed with the sin OF THE WHOLE WORLD... past, present and future

This is the exchange that takes place at the point of salvation.

Once the gift exchange, of Jesus Christ's life for ours, has been truly accepted, then the blood of Christ, with which we have been clothed CANNOT be corrupted EVER. To say that our salvation CAN be corrupted goes against the cross of Calvary and what The Lord's death achieved, and undermines the blood and the righteousness of the very Word of God Himself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

InChrist, I certainly disagree with your conclusions, but I appreciate the spirit of your post. You said all of that without calling others liars, blasphemers, or telling them that they are calling God or the Word of God a liar. The manner in which you present your beliefs is a credit to this list and is the reasonable manner in which clearly exhibits how Christians can debate without personally attacking another. Thank you. :thumbs:

 

[Martin Luther]

Martin Luther,

There is no error in KJV.

Because, these words of present tense or current tense are classic English words.

For example "Believeth" of John 3:16 actual means believes also, believing, both are same meaning of present tense not past tense. By the way, you are right on John 3:16 of 'believeth' is a present tense, not say, "believed" of past tense. Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The KJV is packed with errors.

 

[Martin Luther]

Please refer to the parable of the sower. Not all seeds take root and produce fruit.

Excellent point, it is unimaginable how anyone could see it any different. It must be pure spiritual blindness. The Pharisees also thought they were 100% safe by following the law.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The KJV is packed with errors.

Pass them along...

 

[Martin Luther]

Pass them along...

Reread post 266 & 267, also Google the “preface to Young’s literal translation". Robert Young shows with perfect clarity that the KJV translators were not interested in preserving an inspired copy. He in fact refers to them as revisers.

 

[JSM17]

To "quench" the Spirit means that we are not to ignore the gifts of the Holy Spirit. His spiritual gifts are to be used. But God does not force us to use them. To quench the Spirit is to have a gift given by God and refuse to use it.

Do you really think that you have authority over God's Spirit and can snuff Him out?? You cannot make God leave you. You do not have the authority to do that.

Quench means to put out, I did not mean that I believe that we can snuff the H.S out. You act as if God forces us to remain in the Spirit if we wish not to be. I can quench the H.S. just like I can grieve the H.S.

1 Thess 5:16-22

16 Rejoice always;

17 pray without ceasing;

18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

19 Do not quench the Spirit;

20 do not despise prophetic utterances.

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

22 abstain from every form of evil.
NASU


Quench means to put out. Notice how one does this, by despising utterances, By not examines everyting carefully, not holding fast to that which is good and not abstaining from every evil.

Stephen said that the fathers always resisted the Holy Spirit, were they overpowering God? Did they have the authority to do that?

Resist, Grieve, Quench, these are just a few thingd that we can do, the scipture delcares it.

 

[Amy.G]

Quench means to put out, I did not mean that I believe that we can snuff the H.S out. You act as if God forces us to remain in the Spirit if we wish not to be. I can quench the H.S. just like I can grieve the H.S.

1 Thess 5:16-22

16 Rejoice always;

17 pray without ceasing;

18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

19 Do not quench the Spirit;

20 do not despise prophetic utterances.

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

22 abstain from every form of evil.
NASU


Quench means to put out. Notice how one does this, by despising utterances, By not examines everyting carefully, not holding fast to that which is good and not abstaining from every evil.

Stephen said that the fathers always resisted the Holy Spirit, were they overpowering God? Did they have the authority to do that?

Resist, Grieve, Quench, these are just a few thingd that we can do, the scipture delcares it.

The context of the passage regarding "quenching the Holy Spirit" is spiritual gifts. That is what Paul is addressing. We can and sometimes do fail to use the gifts God has given us.

Resisting the Holy Spirit that Stephen was talking about is in regard to salvation. Quenching the Spirit in the context that Paul was speaking about has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

The context of the passage regarding "quenching the Holy Spirit" is spiritual gifts. That is what Paul is addressing. We can and sometimes do fail to use the gifts God has given us.

Resisting the Holy Spirit that Stephen was talking about is in regard to salvation. Quenching the Spirit in the context that Paul was speaking about has nothing to do with salvation.

Yep, that's what happens when you let Scripture speak. :thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Resisting the Holy Spirit that Stephen was talking about is in regard to salvation. Quenching the Spirit in the context that Paul was speaking about has nothing to do with salvation.

HP: That is pure conjecture without the least bit of reasonable support. There is simply no end to the desperate attempts to support ones presupposition of OSAS.