One call...or two

[Iconoclast]

Acts 2:39, , Rom 8:30, Rom 9:24, Rom 11:29, I Cor 1:2, I Cor 1:9, I Cor 1:24-26, I Cor 7:18, I Cor 7:22, Gal 1:6, Gal 1:15, Gal 5:13, Eph 1:18, Eph 4:4, Php 3:14, Col 3:15, 1Th 2:12, 1Th 2:14, 2 Th 1:11, 2Th 2:14, 1 Ti 6:12, 2 Ti 1:9, Heb 3:1, Heb 9:15, 1 Pe 1:15, 1 Pe 2:9, 1Pe 2:21, 1 Pe 3:9, 1Pe 5:10, 2 Pe 1:3, 2 Pe 1:10, Jude 1:1, Rev 17:14, Rev 19:9

Lets take a quick glance at this list of texts;

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Even as many as the Lord shall call....sounds like "All" are not in view...even as many...similar to Acts 18;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

God tells them he has MUCH people in the city.He does not say all. he does not tell them who...he just says much,and ordains preaching to all. [ all are called in a general sense by the word preached and taught......no one prevents them from coming} who makes the difference...The Spirit of God...or the hearers then self?

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Those called here ...are said to be ...called to be saints

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Clearly the elect are called different from other men. What makes the call effectual in the elect:
12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Those "called " here are the elect......the elect remnant from Israel.....the elect persons out from the nations.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Those called here...are elect gentiles who have obtained mercy.

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Clearly the elect are in view....jew or gentile....not all men..but them which are called. this would make no sense if all men were called exactly the same way.

Even when a large group of persons hear the same message.....the inward call of God is what makes a distinction.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Those shows a distinction of those who are called...not many....[clearly not all the same way!!!}

 

[Iconoclast]

From a Baptist Cathechism with Commentary by W.R.Downing;

The Scriptures distinguish between an outward or external, general call to
salvation which is to be made through the free offer of the gospel to all men
without discrimination or distinction, and the personal, internal, effectual call
to salvation. This distinction is made by context and implication, i.e., the
doctrinal context in which the term occurs (e.g., Jn. 6:44–45; Rom. 8:28–30; 1
151
Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 2:9), the implications of that context (e.g., Rom. 9:23–24;
Eph. 4:1; Heb. 9:15), or the contrast with the general call (e.g., Matt. 22:14)
serve to make the necessary distinction. This individual, internal or effectual
call to salvation has been variously termed “the effectual call,” “effectual
calling,” “irresistible grace,” “infallible grace,” or “efficacious grace” to
distinguish it from the outward and general call through the gospel.
The gospel is to be preached to all men without distinction or
discrimination (Matt. 28:18–20; Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:47; Acts 1:8; 17:30–31).
This gospel proclamation—the “free offer” of the gospel—declares that God
is absolutely righteous and holy, and that he is sworn to punish sin; that man
by nature is fallen, sinful, and under Divine wrath and condemnation; and that
redemption has been accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ for sinners
through his active and passive obedience. Sinners are urged to turn from their
sin in repentance and look to Jesus Christ in faith as Lord and Savior, and thus
be forgiven of their sins and be reconciled unto God through the imputed
righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sinners must believe (Acts 16:31), and
they must repent (Mk. 1:15; Acts 17:31; 26:18–20). If sinners come to Christ
in saving faith and repentance, they will be saved—delivered from and
forgiven of their sins and be reconciled to a righteous, just and holy God (Jn.
6:37; Rom. 3:23–26). See Question 34.
This outward or general call thus goes forth in and through the message of
the gospel—a call to repentance and faith (Acts 17:30–31). It is often either
rejected or the claims of the gospel are misrepresented or misunderstood
(Matt. 7:21–23; 13:5–6, 20–21; Acts 8:13; 1 Cor. 15:2; Heb. 6:1–6). It is
rejected or misappropriated because it comes in word only and not also in the
saving power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3, 5, 7–8; 6:44–45; 1 Cor. 2:4–5; 1
Thess. 1:4–5; 2:13). It is rejected because of the condition of the sinner by
nature as a fallen, sinful being (1 Cor. 2:14); because of the nature of sin; and
because of a superior, evil power, which effectively keeps sinners from
comprehending the truth of the gospel (2 Cor. 4:3–6). Further, it may be
received in a defective and temporary way through misunderstanding, a fear
of judgment, or through a psychological or emotional reaction (Matt. 13:20–
22; Mk. 4:16–19; Lk. 8:13–14).

 

[Allan]

Icon.. all of what you post is well and good but you still have not given us a definition as to what the call IS.

Define it for us.

What is the 'Call'? and what are they being called to?

Effectual -

Non-effectual/general -


The point here is simple for me - We must understand
1. What the 'calling' / inviting people to (no matter one or both)?
That is first and primarily important.

Once we know what people are being called/invited to..
2. To whom is the calling/invite extended?

3. Where does the validation for the call/invite come from? (on this we both agree - Christ/God because He has prepared already that which is necessary to make the call/invite valid).

You are giving or claiming distinction without defining anything or making clear the subject before piling out scripture. Once we know what we are talking about it will make all those scriptures even more clear.

I am simply asking for clarity and conciseness so movement is not jumpy but more fluid for all parties

 

[WITBOTL]

While being called out of darkness to light...we have an expectant HOPE of our Calling.....

This is where we should eventually find agreement as believers....what is the nature of this HOPE...which promises...and what is our responsibility to live up to this HOLY CALLING...

Thank you Icon for some good posts. Hopefully for blessing rather than debate :

called according to his purpose
called to be saints
called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
called to peace
called in the Lord
called into the grace of Christ
called by grace
called unto liberty
called in one hope of your calling
called in one body
called unto holiness
called into his kingdom
called by the gospel
called unto eternal life
called with a holy calling
called out of darkness into light
called to suffer
called unto blessing
called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus
called us to glory and virtue

 

[MorseOp]

What does it mean to be called?

"Called" is sort of like being beckoned. It is not so much an invitation as it is the process whereby a subject is brought to the intended action of another. In context this word is normally used to describe God's elect.

John 10:26-28 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those that are called respond to the voice of the Shepherd. This voice is actually the internal work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit calls only those who are called to be part of the Shepherd's flock (deduced from the text).

The purpose of being called

Romans 8:28-29 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

God calls His elect according to His purpose. What is His purpose? His purpose is to fulfill whatever God decrees. In Romans 8 that decree is that the elect become "conformed to the image of His Son"; that they become more like Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-6 reveals a more basic reason for God's purpose:

Ephesians 1:3-6 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Basically God calls His elect in order to make Him look good! Wording it like that makes it seem a bit narcissistic, but God is the highest of all beings. If you or I made that statement it would be narcissistic, but since God is the one seeking all glory and praise it is fitting and proper.

The word for "purpose" in Romans 8:28 has the meaning of putting on display, like a decoration of trophy. That is what we are. We are called to be part of God's showcase. We are examples of His love, compassion, and grace.

While individuals are called to be part of God's showcase, that showcase is the Church. So, we see that calling the elect is an individual act with a corporate view; each person called in order to be part of a larger group, i.e. the Church. The call is extended only to the elect; those whom the Father has chosen, from eternity, according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). The call is accomplished through the internal work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon.. all of what you post is well and good but you still have not given us a definition as to what the call IS.

Define it for us.

What is the 'Call'? and what are they being called to?

Effectual -

Non-effectual/general -


The point here is simple for me - We must understand
1. What the 'calling' / inviting people to (no matter one or both)?
That is first and primarily important.

I agree this is Important...I plan to dig on this much more on weds/thurs...do not have to drive as much..might get a day off.

Once we know what people are being called/invited to..
2. To whom is the calling/invite extended?

I believe we are commanded to give a legitimate gospel offer to all men.We are to speak as dying men, unto other dying men.....offering the promise of life eternal in knowing Jesus....We offer this to all we can offer....we plant, another waters, but God gives the increase



3. Where does the validation for the call/invite come from? (on this we both agree - Christ/God because He has prepared already that which is necessary to make the call/invite valid).

Yes..we agree there!



You are giving or claiming distinction without defining anything or making clear the subject before piling out scripture. Once we know what we are talking about it will make all those scriptures even more clear.

Yes...I have. I will try and clarify in the next few days....that is why I paused in the middle of the list of verses...to get some feed back and read others ideas.....I am enjoying this thread...sort of pausing as I go to think and meditate on all the fine verses we get to consider and open up!



I am simply asking for clarity and conciseness so movement is not jumpy but more fluid for all parties

Allan,
I am trying to sort it out myself:laugh: I think there is more to it, than a general call to salvation.There have been many who have lived and died,and never heard a specific call to salvation in the gospel.They only experienced a general revelation in creation;

19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

This general revelation comes short of being a Full or complete call.
It reveals to man the reality that there is a God....but men are truth supressors by nature.
Something more specific is needed. The historic facts of the gospel....death , burial , resurrection....make up a more specific call....

But as I look at these verses...it seems to be that the historic facts alone....without the quickening work of the Spirit....do not get it done.
The quote from the Baptist cathechism identifies why these historic facts...apart from the Spirit's inward and supernatural work.....do not constitute a saving call to the kingdom.
Help me out here Allan.....I think we agree on this to some extent:wavey:...i am a bit worn down...pushed from wyoming up into central oregon....i am sort of like burnt toast right now...but am enjoying thinking about what the implications of this great blessing mean to us.

[as a side note].....right or wrong...i find the postmill writers[puritans,and some modern day men] address kingdom conduct and living the most because of their view of the kingdom. I do not want to derail this thread as it would be pathetic to derail my own thread:laugh:

I think we can all see that this whole area of what we are called to...is a vitally important and profitable study. I almost do not care ..in one sense..about all of the differences we can come up with....I am trying to see where we can learn and agree more than find fault....

I am enjoying several of the posts offered so far...and hope we can develop a consensus on as many areas as possible.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you Icon for some good posts. Hopefully for blessing rather than debate :

called according to his purpose
called to be saints
called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
called to peace
called in the Lord
called into the grace of Christ
called by grace
called unto liberty
called in one hope of your calling
called in one body
called unto holiness
called into his kingdom
called by the gospel
called unto eternal life
called with a holy calling
called out of darkness into light
called to suffer
called unto blessing
called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus
called us to glory and virtue

Thank you brother for doing much of the heavy lifting so far....offering such a good list of verses...and this fine list of our position In Christ...what a blessing. All christians should rejoice in these truths without exception....and it should encourage us in light of such great mercy and blessing to reach the lost with the saving truth of the Blood of the Cross.:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

What does it mean to be called?

"Called" is sort of like being beckoned. It is not so much an invitation as it is the process whereby a subject is brought to the intended action of another. In context this word is normally used to describe God's elect.

John 10:26-28 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those that are called respond to the voice of the Shepherd. This voice is actually the internal work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit calls only those who are called to be part of the Shepherd's flock (deduced from the text).

The purpose of being called



Romans 8:28-29 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

God calls His elect according to His purpose. What is His purpose? His purpose is to fulfill whatever God decrees. In Romans 8 that decree is that the elect become "conformed to the image of His Son"; that they become more like Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-6 reveals a more basic reason for God's purpose:

Ephesians 1:3-6 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Basically God calls His elect in order to make Him look good! Wording it like that makes it seem a bit narcissistic, but God is the highest of all beings. If you or I made that statement it would be narcissistic, but since God is the one seeking all glory and praise it is fitting and proper.

The word for "purpose" in Romans 8:28 has the meaning of putting on display, like a decoration of trophy. That is what we are. We are called to be part of God's showcase. We are examples of His love, compassion, and grace.

While individuals are called to be part of God's showcase, that showcase is the Church. So, we see that calling the elect is an individual act with a corporate view; each person called in order to be part of a larger group, i.e. the Church. The call is extended only to the elect; those whom the Father has chosen, from eternity, according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). The call is accomplished through the internal work of the Holy Spirit.

Good post....this helps to start to paint the portrait and suggest more of the distinction.
As men we might find women in general attractive....yet when it comes to the marraige covenant, there is only one woman who we are to marry in the Lord.
The special love of God in drawing His covenant people to Himself is unique to His sheep...

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

:wavey::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Allan,
In the other thread you also asked the ...WHY...question.
Why would we be told to speak and delare the word of life to those who might not be the object of it's saving power.

I would like to deal with that when i am more alert...but I will offer some verses for thought....

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

 

[Allan]

What does it mean to be called?

"Called" is sort of like being beckoned. It is not so much an invitation as it is the process whereby a subject is brought to the intended action of another. In context this word is normally used to describe God's elect.

Ok.. Thank you. FOR ME - this is what I am looking so we have a place from which to begin. Without this common point of initial reference, we might as well be asking each other how does your apple taste, while we eat an orange.

So the above is what the calling/invite is, for the efficient call - understood.
Now, do you hold there is a general call? I do know of some Reformed who do not believe there is even a general call to the non-elect.

If there is a general call again, what is it please. Is it the same message?

For me, and for this discussion, I separate the call/invite/beckoning from the power of the Spirit ONLY to address first, the message of Calling and to whom it is sent. While I realize they are not technically separated, this is only for building understanding one point upon another, to move through theme that is dear to us all, so as to better understand mechanics of issue at hand.

John 10:26-28 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those that are called respond to the voice of the Shepherd. This voice is actually the internal work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit calls only those who are called to be part of the Shepherd's flock (deduced from the text).

The purpose of being called

Romans 8:28-29 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

God calls His elect according to His purpose. What is His purpose? His purpose is to fulfill whatever God decrees. In Romans 8 that decree is that the elect become "conformed to the image of His Son"; that they become more like Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-6 reveals a more basic reason for God's purpose:

Ephesians 1:3-6 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Basically God calls His elect in order to make Him look good! Wording it like that makes it seem a bit narcissistic, but God is the highest of all beings. If you or I made that statement it would be narcissistic, but since God is the one seeking all glory and praise it is fitting and proper.

The word for "purpose" in Romans 8:28 has the meaning of putting on display, like a decoration of trophy. That is what we are. We are called to be part of God's showcase. We are examples of His love, compassion, and grace.

While individuals are called to be part of God's showcase, that showcase is the Church. So, we see that calling the elect is an individual act with a corporate view; each person called in order to be part of a larger group, i.e. the Church. The call is extended only to the elect; those whom the Father has chosen, from eternity, according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). The call is accomplished through the internal work of the Holy Spirit.

Ok.. don't fall over but I am in complete agreement with you

In fact, I don't know of any non-cal or even Arminian who doesn't agree with you here as to what the calling 'is to'.

Personal note - I love studying the what we are 'called to', as they are not wishful points of thoughts but aspects we, as believers and thus children of God have been instructed to move into (where we were, and some still are not yet). It is the life that proves we have moved from darkness into light.

 

[Allan]

Thank you Icon for some good posts. Hopefully for blessing rather than debate :

called according to his purpose
called to be saints
called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
called to peace
called in the Lord
called into the grace of Christ
called by grace
called unto liberty
called in one hope of your calling
called in one body
called unto holiness
called into his kingdom
called by the gospel
called unto eternal life
called with a holy calling
called out of darkness into light
called to suffer
called unto blessing
called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus
called us to glory and virtue

Love it.. and debate can also be a blessing.

Called by - the gospel; grace

Called to - peace; the grace of Christ; fellowship; be saints; holiness; eternal life; His Kingdom; light; suffer; blessing; His eternal glory; glory and virtue

Called in (established or validated by) - one body [Christ's body]; the Hope of your calling [Jesus];

Called with - a holy calling (this one is interesting in that while the term 'holy' is by implication - without sin, it is specific to origin - from God not man, thus without stain or taint to the calling)

Called for - according to His purpose (for His own reasons)

No disagreement here.. I like the break generalized breakdown

 

[Van]

The definition of the effectual call is simply either irresistible grace, gift of faith, or some other invention not found in scripture. It is all the same, if anyone repents and puts his or her trust in Christ, they were enabled by a magic inner call, otherwise they would have not be able to seek God or trust in Christ. There is no actual support for the fiction anywhere in the bible.

 

[Van]

In four places "called" us used as an adjective, thus refers to those who have been, past tense, called out of darkness into His marvelous light. See Romans 1:6, 1 Cor. 1:24, Jude 1:1 and Revelation 17:14. The called belong to Jesus and are being kept for Jesus.

 

[MorseOp]

If there is a general call again, what is it please. Is it the same message?

Allan,

If there is a general call I think scripture reveals it to be that all men everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30). Unfortunately, I believe that all men everywhere are not capable of repenting. This is where you and I may disagree. I believe scripture teaches that only the elect will repent. Of course, I use the term "elect" from a distinctly Reformed view. For those who are not elect the Gospel is an "aroma of death."

2 Corinthians 2:14-16 14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?

So then, the general call is not an equal call.

 

[Skandelon]

First, I want to commend you all on a great discussion. I've been encouraged by this thread. Thank you for that! It is amazing how a brotherly discussion over differences can be edifying and informative. I especially appreciate Allan's attention to details and definitions (I've missed his participation here).

I also appreciate the thorough and cordial responses to his posts. This is refreshing. :godisgood:

If there is a general call I think scripture reveals it to be that all men everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30). Unfortunately, I believe that all men everywhere are not capable of repenting. This is where you and I may disagree.

I think you are right. This is a point of disagreement. I can understand how you might believe that all men everywhere are not capable of attaining righteousness by Law through Works, but why do you believe they are NOT capable of admitting their own inability (repenting/surrendering)?

Calvinists SEEM to suggest that because men are unable to attain righteousness by law through works (Romans 3:10-11); that they are equally unable to attain righteousness by grace through faith (Romans 3:19-21). IOW, you all appear to equate faith/repentance with a meritorious work of the Law thus concluding that it is equally as unattainable. Can you explain why that is? Where is that link in scripture?

 

[Allan]

Allan,
(What I asked and stated) 1. What the 'calling' / inviting people to (no matter one or both)?
That is first and primarily important.

(what you stated)I agree this is Important...I plan to dig on this much more on weds/thurs...do not have to drive as much..might get a day off.

(What I asked and stated) Once we know what people are being called/invited to..
2. To whom is the calling/invite extended?

(what you stated) I believe we are commanded to give a legitimate gospel offer to all men.We are to speak as dying men, unto other dying men.....offering the promise of life eternal in knowing Jesus....We offer this to all we can offer....we plant, another waters, but God gives the increase

Ok. I agree here, but here is the crux of the issue for the vast majority of those who do not hold to the 2 message position (general and effectual), and that is the legitimacy of the message given all men. THIS is one reason I wished to delve carefully and slowly into this because it is this that is the real issue and if not established first, we begin talking past one another on all the rest that we actually agree on (if people would slow down from the Cal/Non-Cal positional statements and look at what each other are actually saying).

Your statement on the gospel message - I agree (and it is nicely shorter than mine ).

Gospel - offering the promise of life eternal in knowing Jesus

So I am presuming you hold the gospel to both groups is the same message, correct?

Yes...I have. I will try and clarify in the next few days....that is why I paused in the middle of the list of verses...to get some feed back and read others ideas.....I am enjoying this thread...sort of pausing as I go to think and meditate on all the fine verses we get to consider and open up!

I am enjoying it to. Again, it is not that I do not wish to interact on your previous verses.. but I wish to get this part established so that in moving into those verses we have a point of reference to move from, to, and thus helping to build scripture upon scripture as it expounds itself, while we work through it.

I am trying to sort it out myself:laugh: I think there is more to it, than a general call to salvation.There have been many who have lived and died,and never heard a specific call to salvation in the gospel.They only experienced a general revelation in creation;

OH I AGREE!!
But I believe we need the foundation established first in order to progress together from the same beginning, and in the same direction, toward a more sure and understood culmination or end. Therefore while there is more to it than the general call, we must first examine what the general call is since the rest is established upon it.

This general revelation comes short of being a Full or complete call.
It reveals to man the reality that there is a God....but men are truth supressors by nature.
Something more specific is needed. The historic facts of the gospel....death , burial , resurrection....make up a more specific call....

I agree, and that we are responsible for whatever amount of truth God provides to us (which I am sure you agree).. For example - an island native who has never seen or heard the gospel, believes the general revelation given him.. we have no doubt God is bringing more to him (I'm leaving out the process on purpose here just for illustrative purposes). We are responsible for/to what God has revealed and are judged accordingly to what we have done with it.

The general revelation declares (as you stated) there is a God, but also it is used by God and revealed by God to declare to mankind - sin, His righteousness, and the Judgement to come, again in a general way. It is much like the Law and like the Law, no way of salvation. But also.. like the law - it was given to reveal that we NEED a saviour.

But as I look at these verses...it seems to be that the historic facts alone....without the quickening work of the Spirit....do not get it done.

Clarification please for the discussion.
Quickening - (short definition) to make alive so one can see and understand.
Correct?? (more to it I know but for simplicity sake, I TRYING for brevity - can't you tell :laugh: )

If so, here is a question for you.. how can man come to know these facts if God is the one who must reveal them to man? What I mean is, if man does not seek after God nor can he, through his intellect, know of God and therefore God righteousness and thus his own sin, how can a non-spiritual person perceive/understand even these general things that are spiritual?

For me - It is because of this we understand He sent His Spirit into the world to convict the world of Sin, His righteousness and judgment to come; as well as noting throughout scripture that God is the one made them know/see (as in Rom 1 & 2 with general revelation and their own conscience).

This is seriously one of my questions and coincides with the discussion here as the gospel is regarding spiritual issue and aspects that man himself can never know or grasp.

If the Spirit of God/God must reveal to man man's sin, His righteousness, and the judgment to come.. we know that these things no man can come to understand apart from the revealing work of the Holy Spirit of God and so we must conclude these are spiritual things since the Spirit of God must reveal to man.

So would this not be considered a quickening if man understands even these basic things since no man can come to understand them or even come to know them apart from God revealing them to a person?

The quote from the Baptist cathechism identifies why these historic facts...apart from the Spirit's inward and supernatural work.....do not constitute a saving call to the kingdom.

To me, in honesty, it doesn't... in fact, to me, it is still very generalize in that it is two calls, one saves because they are made alive (this is still part of the issue in question), and other general call is to people God has not obtained a way for them to be saved, and in fact does not desire them to be.. but is offering salvation to them (again, another point of contention regarding the Call)

In truth, it is in part, because of this (and mostly on studying regeneration and early Reformers views on them) I stepped away from Reformed theology in part. Another story for another day

Help me out here Allan.....I think we agree on this to some extent...i am a bit worn down...pushed from wyoming up into central oregon....i am sort of like burnt toast right now...but am enjoying thinking about what the implications of this great blessing mean to us.

I agree.. and I am sort of milking a bit more time than I should be for this. I still have much to today. I love this stuff and don't get a lot of sit down REAL DIGGING into the word to often with others. (I miss that about College life)

I think we can all see that this whole area of what we are called to...is a vitally important and profitable study. I almost do not care ..in one sense..about all of the differences we can come up with....I am trying to see where we can learn and agree more than find fault....

To me, I agree. I find it sad when others (from either side) state they can not find fellowship with the other side. It is sad that we serve the same Lord and yet.. *sigh, well... nevermind.

 

[MorseOp]

First, I want to commend you all on a great discussion. I've been encouraged by this thread. Thank you for that! It is amazing how a brotherly discussion over differences can be edifying and informative. I especially appreciate Allan's attention to details and definitions (I've missed his participation here).

I also appreciate the thorough and cordial responses to his posts. This is refreshing. :godisgood:

I think you are right. This is a point of disagreement. I can understand how you might believe that all men everywhere are not capable of attaining righteousness by Law through Works, but why do you believe they are NOT capable of admitting their own inability (repenting/surrendering)?

Calvinists SEEM to suggest that because men are unable to attain righteousness by law through works (Romans 3:10-11); that they are equally unable to attain righteousness by grace through faith (Romans 3:19-21). IOW, you all appear to equate faith/repentance with a meritorious work of the Law thus concluding that it is equally as unattainable. Can you explain why that is? Where is that link in scripture?

Those who hold to the doctrines of grace believe that the natural man is unable and unwilling (total inability) to come to God on His terms (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7). This is due to man's fallen nature (total depravity). God must take unilateral action to change man's heart making him able and willing to believe (Ephesians 1:4, 5). So, the Law has only one function, to reveal sin and its condemnation. The Law is not meritorious.

 

[MorseOp]

Whereas those who hold to the doctrines of grace believe in the total depravity and total inability of the sinner, Arminianism teaches that the sinner is not completely fallen in his nature; there still remains both good and the capacity for good. Passages such as Genesis 6:5; Romans 3:10-23; and Ephesians 2:1 make such a position problematic.

 

[Skandelon]

Those who hold to the doctrines of grace believe than the nautral man is unable and unwilling (total inability) to to come to God on His terms (1 Corninthians 2:14; Romans 8:7). This is due to man's fallen nature (total depravity). God must take unilateral action to change man's heart making him able and willing to believe (Ephesians 1:4, 5).

I understand as I used to argue for this position years ago, but allow me to restate what you believe for clarity:

You believe the natural (unregenerate) man is totally unable to respond to God's appeal for reconciliation unless God acts effectually to regenerate (give a new nature) to that man, which certainly will cause them to believe and repent.

You used 1 Cor 2:14 and Romans 8:7 to support your view of total inability, but can you point out to me where either of these verses teach that the gracious work of God in proclaiming the Gospel appeal to the world does not qualify as 'action to change man's heart?' Does a gracious work of God have to be effectual for God to get the full credit for that work? If so, why?

Look at Rom 8:7 first: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

What two things does this verse tell us?
1) Sinful men are enemies of God.

Which you would think that an appeal for reconciliation sent by God himself would be sufficient to remedy. To say that an enemy can't respond to God's appeal for reconciliation because they are enemies is kind of like saying the cure for cancer can't cure their cancer because they have cancer. I don't follow that logic. Can you explain?​

2) Sinful man cannot submit to God's law.

How is that proof that man cannot submit to God's grace? How is proof that we can't keep the law proof that we can't believe in the one who kept the law for us?​

So, the Law has only one function, to reveal sin and its condemnation. The Law is not meritorious.

I agree, but that is NEWS to the people of the first century. They felt as if they could attain righteousness by Law through works, which Paul clearly teaches them that they are TOTALLY UNABLE to do (there is your ONLY "Total Inability" in scripture), but on the other hand there is a righteousness being revealed from heaven which IS ATTAINABLE which is by Grace through Faith, which is not meritorious.