One hunded bottles of...

[Deacon]

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Matthew 9:17

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 2:22

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:37

" bottles", hummmm, interesting translation

Rob

 

[Mexdeaf]

<hic> I'll drink to that.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[franklinmonroe]

... " bottles", hummmm, interesting translation ...

Are you quoting the Cambridge Edition KJV or Webster's 1833 version (they seem to be exactly the same)? Interesting, but not unique: I quickly found "bottles" used also in the American KJV and the Douay-Rheims.

 

[ktn4eg]

Come on, Deacon.............

Don't we already have enough bottle-necks to contend with without you pointing out ANOTHER ONE?!!? :tongue3:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I don't understand the issue here, seriously. Maybe it is just Monday. Could someone explain to me?

 

[Deacon]

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. Genesis 21:14 (AV 1873)

 

[Jerome]

I too am puzzled at why this would be considered "interesting". Please explain.

 

[Deacon]

I’m studying through Genesis with my Sunday morning bible class where multiple translations are used.

As I compared translations I noticed the phrase in Ge 21:14, where Abraham gave Hagar a “bottle of water”.
Hey I’ve got those in the garage! …was it recyclable?

Why would the AV use bottle?
In a search I find that the AV uses the word “bottle” a lot in both the OT and the NT.
Most other translations don't use the word or use it very sparingly.
Tyndale used the word “vessel”.

It seems totally inappropriate to use it in Matthew 9:17 (and its parallels).
My brother makes wine and puts new wine in old bottles – they don’t break.
As I understand it, the major fermentation process has already occurred and the airtight bottle is used to keep air from continuing the process.

Most versions use the word“ skin”.
Now a “skin” would allow the process of fermentation to continue and would stretch and break.

IMO, this is a case where the AV translators made a mistake.

Rob

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I’m studying through Genesis with my Sunday morning bible class where multiple translations are used.

As I compared translations I noticed the phrase in Ge 21:14, where Abraham gave Hagar a “bottle of water”.
Hey I’ve got those in the garage! …was it recyclable?

Why would the AV use bottle?
In a search I find that the AV uses the word “bottle” a lot in both the OT and the NT.
Most other translations don't use the word or use it very sparingly.
Tyndale used the word “vessel”.

It seems totally inappropriate to use it in Matthew 9:17 (and its parallels).
My brother makes wine and puts new wine in old bottles – they don’t break.
As I understand it, the major fermentation process has already occurred and the airtight bottle is used to keep air from continuing the process.

Most versions use the word“ skin”.
Now a “skin” would allow the process of fermentation to continue and would stretch and break.

IMO, this is a case where the AV translators made a mistake.

Rob

Disagree - it was just a matter of choice - bottle has always referred to a vessel of any sort. 'Skin' might have been a better choice, but 'bottle' was not wrong.

 

[Oldtimer]

Bottle:

BOT'TLE, n.

1. A hollow vessel of glass, wood, leather or other material, with a narrow mouth, for holding and carrying liquors. The oriental nations use skins or leather for the conveyance of liquors; and of this kind are the bottles mentioned in scripture. "Put new wine into bottles." In Europe and America, glass is used for liquors of all kinds; and farmers use small cags or hollow vessels of wood. The small kinds of glass bottles are called vials or phials.
http://www.1828-dictionary.com/d/search/word,bottle

Ancient Roman jars were used for many different purposes, among them, storage of various items. They were not jars as we know them today, but were made of pottery or glass in much the same fashion. These Roman jars would range from very small to extremely large in size. http://www.ancientromangoods.com/vessels/jars

The world's earliest known wine jar (more than 7000 years old, ca. 5400-5000 B.C.) and a similarly dated sherd from another reconstructed wine jar have been made famous following a Nature magazine article about the discovery of wine residue on the sherd. http://www.nicks.com.au/Index.aspx?link_id=76.1222

Containers of all kinds have been used throughout history for many different purposes such as ancient Roman bottles. Studying these bottles, baskets and containers you can gain insight into a particular culture. Archaeologists have found ruins from many different civilizations, including ancient roman ruins and here are a few things they have learned about the people. The term glass first came to be in the latter days of the Roman Empire and glass of all type was central to their way of life. Ancient Romans had many uses for glass bottles. http://www.ancientromangoods.com/vessels/bottles

Whatever the truth is about glass's humble beginnings one thing is certain it quickly became a central part of life in many ancient civilizations. Some speculate, due to the sheer mass of glass from ancient Rome that it must have been widely produced and distributed throughout the area. Ancient Roman bottles remains tell us they were a highly sophisticated society not entirely unlike our own, though we now depend more on plastic than glass or ceramic. http://www.ancientromangoods.com/vessels/bottles

The Romans also adapted wooden cooperage, an invention they acquired with the spoils of conquering Germanic tribes, to wine storage and transportation. This was a great advance for operations previously accomplished in skins or clay jars (amphora). They may also have been the first to use glass bottles, as glassblowing became more common during this era. http://www.winepros.org/wine101/history.htm

BOTTLE, a vessel for containing liquids, generally as opposed to one for drinking from (though this probably is not excluded) and with a narrow neck to facilitate closing and pouring. The first bottles were probably made of the skins of animals. In the Iliad (iii. 247) the attendants are represented as bearing wine for use in a bottle made of goat's skin. The ancient Egyptians used skins for this purpose, and from the language employed by Herodotus (ii. I 2I) it appears that a bottle was formed by sewing up the skin and leaving the projection of the leg and foot to serve as a vent, which was hence termed irohewv. The aperture was closed with a plug or a string. Skin bottles of various forms occur on Egyptian monuments. The Greeks and Romans also were accustomed to use bottles made of skins ; and in the southern parts of Europe they are still used for the trans port of wine. The first explicit reference to bottles of skin in Scripture occurs in Joshua (ix. 4), where it is said that the Gibeonites took "old sacks upon their asses, and wine-bottles old and rent and bound up." The objection to putting "new wine into old bottles" (Matt. ix. 17) is that the skin, already stretched and weakened by use, is liable to burst »nder the nreCCnre of the gas from new wine. Skins are still most extensively used throughout western Asia for the conveyance and storage of water.

It is an error to represent the bottles of the ancient Hebrews as being made exclusively of skins. In Jer. xix. 1 the prophet speaks of "a potter's earthen ves sel." The Egyptians (see EGYPT : Art and Archaeology) possessed vases and bottles of hard stone, alabaster, glass, ivory, bone, and porcelain, bronze, silver and gold, and also of glazed pottery or common earthenware. In modern times bottles are usually made of glass, etc., occasionally of earthenware. The glass bottle industry has attained enormous dimensions, whether for wine, beer, or mineral waters ; and labour-saving machinery for blowing and filling the bottles has been introduced, as well as for corking or stoppering, for labelling, and for washing them. (See BOTTLE MANUFACTURE.) http://gluedideas.com/Encyclopedia-Britannica-Volume-3-Baltimore-Braila/Bottle.html

Finally,

Genesis 21:14 ASB
And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and gave her the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

NASB
14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a [a]skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, and gave her the boy, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Footnotes:a.Genesis 21:14 I.e. a skin used as a bottle


Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)14 So Abraham rose up in the morning, and taking bread and a bottle of water, put it upon her shoulder, and delivered the boy, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Bersabee.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)14 And Abraham riseth early in the morning, and taketh bread, and a bottle of water, and giveth unto Hagar (placing [it] on her shoulder), also the lad, and sendeth her out; and she goeth on, and goeth astray in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba;


New Century Version (NCV) 14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a leather bag full of water. He gave them to Hagar and sent her away. Carrying these things and her son, Hagar went and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.


Amplified Bible (AMP)14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a bottle of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulders, and he sent her and the [a]youth away. And she wandered on [aimlessly] and lost her way in the wilderness of Beersheba.


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)14 Early in the morning Abraham got up, took bread and a waterskin, put them on Hagar’s shoulders, and sent her and the boy away.[a] She left and wandered in the Wilderness of Beer-sheba.

IMO, this is a case where the AV translators made a mistake.

Rob

Are you sure?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Matthew 9:17

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 2:22

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:37

" bottles", hummmm, interesting translation

Rob

As I enjoy a beer (Lager actually):laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

No way the 'old' skins of Judaism was able to contain the 'enlargement' that was coming:

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

Besides:

And no man having drunk old wine desireth new; for he saith, The old is good. Lu 5:39

 

[John of Japan]

I’m studying through Genesis with my Sunday morning bible class where multiple translations are used.

As I compared translations I noticed the phrase in Ge 21:14, where Abraham gave Hagar a “bottle of water”.
Hey I’ve got those in the garage! …was it recyclable?

Why would the AV use bottle?
In a search I find that the AV uses the word “bottle” a lot in both the OT and the NT.
Most other translations don't use the word or use it very sparingly.
Tyndale used the word “vessel”.

It seems totally inappropriate to use it in Matthew 9:17 (and its parallels).
My brother makes wine and puts new wine in old bottles – they don’t break.
As I understand it, the major fermentation process has already occurred and the airtight bottle is used to keep air from continuing the process.

Most versions use the word“ skin”.
Now a “skin” would allow the process of fermentation to continue and would stretch and break.

IMO, this is a case where the AV translators made a mistake.

Rob

The Greek word is askos. My lexicons all have leather container, wineskin or something similar. If you put new wine into an old leather wineskin and allow it to ferment, it will indeed break the wineskin.

As to whether this is a translator's error, I think you are making the mistake of reading a modern meaning back into 1611. In 2012 the word "bottle" conjures up a vessel made of a solid material like glass, not leather. However, in 1611 the word bottle could refer to a leather vessel. So the word bottle is not a mistaken translation, but an archaism. (Check out: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bottle)

 

[Jerome]

In 2012 the word "bottle" conjures up a vessel made of a solid material like glass, not leather. However, in 1611 the word bottle could refer to a leather vessel. So the word bottle is not a mistaken translation, but an archaism. (Check out: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bottle)

Even now, the word bottle is still used of non-rigid vessels, not "made of a solid material like glass":

water bottle:

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-water-bottle/ID=prod17205-product

collapsible hydration bottle:

http://www.ultralightdesigns.com/products/hydration/evernew2000.html

 

[Deacon]

... in 1611 the word bottle could refer to a leather vessel. So the word bottle is not a mistaken translation, but an archaism. (Check out: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bottle)

Thanks John, that's just what I was looking for!

Many of the other versions (contemporary to their time and eariler) used the term, "vessel".
I wonder why the translators used "bottle" instead?

Rob

 

[Van]

It seems a leather wine bag or leather water bag would work.

 

[Jerome]

Many of the other versions (contemporary to their time and eariler) used the term, "vessel".
I wonder why the translators used "bottle" instead?

Actually, many of the other versions (contemporary to their time and eariler) used the term, "bottle":

Wycliffe, Coverdale1538, Paraphrase of Erasmus, the Great Bible, Geneva(margin), etc.

 

[Deacon]

data dump

Nethir men putten newe wyne in to elde botelis, ellis the botels ben to-broke, and distried, and the wyn sched out. But men putten newe wyne in to newe botels, and bothe ben kept. Wycliffe 1395

Nether do men put newe wyne into olde vessels for then the vessels breake and the wyne runneth oute and the vessels perysshe. But they powre newe wyne into newe vessels and so are both saved togeder. Tyndale 1526

Nether do men put new wyne in to olde vessels, for then the vessels breake, and the wyne runneth out, & ye vessels peryshe, But they poure newe wyne in to newe vessels, and so are both saued together, Coverdale 1535

Neither do men put new wyne into olde vessels, for then the vessels break, and the wyne runneth oute, and the vessels peysh. But they poure new wyne into new vessels, and so are bothe saued together. Matthew's 1537

Nether do men put new wyne into olde: bottels: els the bottels breake, and the wyne runneth out, and the bottels peryshe. But they putt new wyne into new bottels, and both are saued together. The Great Bible 1540

Neither do men put newe wine into olde vessels: els, the vessels breake, and the wyne runneth out, and the vessels peryshe: But they put newe wyne, into newe vessels, and both are preserued together. Bishops 1568

Neither doe they put newe wine into olde vessels: for then the vessels would breake, and the wine woulde be spilt, and the vessels shoulde perish: but they put new wine into newe vessels, and so are both preserued. Geneva 1587

Neither do they put nevv vvine into old bottels. Othervvise the bottels breake, and the vvine runneth out, and the bottels perish. But nevv vvine they put into nevv bottels: and both are preserued together. Doway-Rhemes 1610

Neither doe men put new wine into old bottels: else the bottels breake, and the wine runneth out, and the bottels perish: but they put new wine into new bottels, and both are preserued. KJV 1611

****************
Vulgate utres = skin; wine/water skin; bag/bottle made of skin/hide; (inflated for flotation) Whitaker, W.. Dictionary of Latin Forms (2012)

*****************
Bottle 15x in 14 verses in the AV

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. Genesis 21:14

And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. Genesis 21:15

And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. Genesis 21:19

And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Judges 4:19

And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young. 1 Samuel 1:24

Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: 1 Samuel 10:3

And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. 1 Samuel 16:20

And when David was a little past the top of the hill, behold, Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth met him, with a couple of asses saddled, and upon them two hundred loaves of bread, and an hundred bunches of raisins, and an hundred of summer fruits, and a bottle of wine. 2 Samuel 16:1

Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book? Psalm 56:8

For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes. Psalm 119:83

Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine? Jeremiah 13:12

Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter’s earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; Jeremiah 19:1

Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee, Jeremiah 19:10

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Habakkuk 2:15

****************************
1 x in NAB
Though he wears out like a leather bottle, like a garment that the moth has consumed? Job 13:28 (NAB 1970)

1 x in ESV, HCSB, in Ps 56:8 [jar]
2x NLT Ps 56:8 and Ecc 10:1
2x NASB Ps 56:8 and Judges 4:19
0 NIV, NET,

Rob

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

A typical leather bottle.

 

[Deacon]

Cool!

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