One new man...

[jimraboin]

This idea of unity between Jewish believers and Gentile faithful is not simply my own. Read what Sid Roth, a Messianic Jew, has to say about Jews and Gentiles coming together.

http://www.sidroth.org/partner.htm

Click on "Partner with us". He says:

Today we have Messianic Jewish congregations and Gentile churches. But God’s answer for restoration is the creation of “One New Man” congregations in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). He wants to reconcile His “family” which has grown apart for centuries. When this happens, the stage is set for worldwide revival.

Thoughts?

Jim

 

[Yelsew]

I guess 2000 years is not to late for the "jew first" concept to take hold.

I would however add the warnings in Revelation of a False prophet who is the leader of a "one world church" concept organization, who becomes the stooge for the "man of perdition", a world dictator who brings a pseudo-world-peace for 3 1/2 years, followed by the worst tribulation the world has ever known for the next 3 1/2 years.

I don't have to worry about that though, I am a full fledged member of the Bride of Christ, and do not expect to be subjected to that tribulation. The Bride of Christ will be sitting at the Bridegrooms table feasting during that time.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Scripture seems to indicate that Jews and Gentiles who find faith in Jesus are one in Christ.

There is also another sense that ' . . . some of the branches were broken off ' so that 'a wild olive tree might be grafted into Christ.' [Romans 11:17] In a general sense the Israelites have refused to accept Christ as their Messiah and Savior. This is why they are broken off; but this does not mean that no Israelites can turn to the Lord. They can come just as Gentiles come into the faith.

After the rapture and the fulness of the Gentiles come into the faith [Romans 11:25] the Israelite world will come back to Christ by the thousands. Israel will rise again spiritually speaking as a national people; they will find Christ. This is what Ezekiel 37 is all about. Romans eleven verse twenty-six says the same. 'And so all Israel shall be saved . . . '
What an ingathering this will be!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I am a full fledged member of the Bride of Christ, and do not expect to be subjected to that tribulation.

Saints throughout history have suffered martyrdom and paid a huge price for their faith in Jesus Christ. American Christians today expect they will carried to Heaven on flowery beds of ease. American Christians don't hope for a great resurrection, they hope for a great escape. I guess they must think they are more special compared to Christians in the past
2000 years.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
I am a full fledged member of the Bride of Christ, and do not expect to be subjected to that tribulation.

Saints throughout history have suffered martyrdom and paid a huge price for their faith in Jesus Christ. American Christians today expect they will carried to Heaven on flowery beds of ease. American Christians don't hope for a great resurrection, they hope for a great escape. I guess they must think they are more special compared to Christians in the past
2000 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry KenH, it is the scriptural promise of the Christ's "snatching up" of His bride from the earth prior to performing dramatic "surgery" on the earth In preparation for His "second coming" and millenial reign. During the time when His Bride is away from the earth, she will be enjoying the Bridegroom's supper. That will take place away from the earth. Then when The lord is finished with the "tribulation of the earth" He will return with his saints to the earth to set up headquarters in Jerusalem for 1000 years. Then the end of this heaven and earth which will be replaced by a new heaven and earth and a New Jerusalem that will last for ever.

 

[jimraboin]

Hey brothers,

Lets not get into doctrinal discussion surrounding the rapture. Am really interested in how we can move toward realy unity between Messianics and Christians.

Anybody have thoughts?

Jim

 

[Ray Berrian]

If it is true that Messianic Christians worship on the Sabbath while Christians worship on the first day of the week, there might be a problem here that will have to be resolved. There are other deeper problems like Messianic Christians believing in the Kingdom Age/Millenimum/1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, while most Catholics and even some Protestants don't believe the O.T. or N.T. Scriptures as to Christ's future reign on earth in Jerusalem. [Ezekiel 37; Micah 5:2; Zechariah 14:17; Revelation chapter twenty]

Christ our Lord knows that we are one with Him. I don't understand why we must walk arm in arm with these brethren when we do not do this as Catholics and Protestant and other indendent Christians. Is window dressing really that important? Sure it would be nice but it will never happen because of the differences of personality and the uniqueness of our various Christian doctrines.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Hey brothers,

Lets not get into doctrinal discussion surrounding the rapture. Am really interested in how we can move toward realy unity between Messianics and Christians.

Anybody have thoughts?

Jim

Geting all the players to wear the same uniform certainly makes them look like a team, but getting them to play like a team takes uniformity of understanding of the rules of play.

 

[jimraboin]

If it is true that we all see through a glass darkly, and if it is true the manifold wisdom of God is displayed in us all, am wondering our doctrinal understandings will be properly aligned only after we, in love and because of love, come together to hear what each has to say. To me, the first thing is coming together. No group superior to another. All gifts being equally heard from and valued. Only then can we learn to see Yeshua Jesus in the others as we grasp the fullness of the faith through love.

Yes?

Jim

 

[Abiyah]

Jim --

As a Torah-observant believer, I am very
uncomfortable in churches. What makes me
uncomfortable? If I list those things, it will only
serve to cause division and more arguments in this
thread, but they are legitimate concerns which my
Torah community seems to have solved within our
synagogue, as well as traditions and practices
that are unacceptable to me as a believer.

Indeed, as one mentioned, I will never switch my
day I set aside weekly for worship and rest away
from the Sabbath, so this is a built-in area of
contention. While I do, on rare occasion, visit my
husband's church, I am very ill at ease there,
especially during your holidays -- and during my
holy days as well!

This year, Christmas occurs during the Chanukah
season. My husband will have his decorations
up, and I will have mine up, sharing the space.
Fortunately for me, he does not do trees, santa
clauses, etc., concentrating purely upon the birth
of Messiah. Regardless, this places me in a very
uncomfortable position, because the fact is that I
dislike Christmas -- extremely!

My grandchildren will perform in their Christmas
programs, as will my children and husband. I will
"bite the bullet" and attend, but it is hard. If not for
my love for these wonderful people, I would not
go to any Christmas celebrations or the following
Easter pageants.

At the same time, those in churches look askance
at us because we love and observe the festivals.
They call them the "Jewish feasts," when our God
calls them His.

We are called Judaizers, but admittedly, some
call you Greekizers, Romanizers, and other choice
names.

Be back

 

[Yelsew]

Abiyah,
Thank you for your frank observation, and steadfast devotion to Judahism. But I have a question for you.

When each of those beloved grand children that you adore came into this world, did you not embrace the child, bringing gifts, and adding that child's birthday as another special day on your busy calendar to be celebrated henceforth?

If you believe in Jesus, and acknowledge him to be the Messiah, then why is it not appropriate to celebrate his entrance into the human family in the manner that your husband does? But if you do not accept Jesus to be the Messiah, I can understand your grief in the matter, because it is then a profane thing to celebrate his birth, especially in the manner that we gentiles do.

If it is the crass commercialism surrounding Christmas that upsets you, then I heartily agree with you. We Christians have been silent far to long in criticizing loudly the corruption of a holy celebration.

I have observed among my Jewish friends a similar corruption of the Chanukah season, in that they tend to get more extravagant in the giving of gifts than was ever intended. It may be confusion over the proximity of the holidays, and the infusion of the one into the other.

[ September 15, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Abiyah, apparently, I would join the Roman Catholic Church before joining a Messianic Christian group, if this is your honest view.

After all it is only Jesus birth; who cares. And Easter is only the day of our Savior's resurrection; no big deal!

Are you worshipping the Torah and the scrolls or Jesus Christ?

 

[Abiyah]

Continuing with my previous post, I also know that
both Christians and "Messianics" are going to have
to get over a lot of their centuries-old prejudices
-- Christians against those who wish to follow the
Lord according to the dictates of the whole Bible
and not just the "New Testament."

As for "Messianic" prejudices, there are false and
errant doctrines among these groups, too. Some
groups are so prejudiced as to limit non-Jew
participation in their groups, and some go so far
as to have signs on their doors which read, "Jews
Only." Lunacy! Where does this show the
breaking down of "wall of partition"?

I also happen to know that some people choose
a Messianic lifestyle simply because they enjoy
being different, or enjoy making waves. Until
these stop playing synagogue, nothing of eternal
value will come of them.

There is also as much false doctrine among some
Messianics a there is among churches. Period.

Unfortunately, until Messiah comes and straightens
out the mess we have made of His legacy, we will
never come together, in my opinion.

 

[Abiyah]

Yelsew --

Actually, we have a particular time during which we
celebrate Messiah's birth -- Sukkot, what you may
call the Feast of Tabernacles. It is an eight-day-
long observance. During that time, we eat and
relax in a "booth" or temporary shed we build for
that purpose in the back yard. We have guests
over, eat special foods, and, in general, enjoy the
privileges of His provision with others, looking
forward to an eternity of doing this in His
presence.

The "booths" are built so that when we look up,
we can clearly see the sky through the roof. This
is to keep us in mind of eternity with Him and of
an eternal rest, when friends and family will be
enjoyed to the fullest.

These holy days were chosen to celebrate
Messiah's birth because historically, we believe
this was possibly when He was born. Although
we do not normally exchange gifts, we enjoy the
gifts of friendship and love of one another in His
honor. It is a precious time.

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Abiyah, apparently, I would join the Roman Catholic Church before joining a Messianic Christian group, if this is your honest view.

After all it is only Jesus birth; who cares. And Easter is only the day of our Savior's resurrection; no big deal!

Are you worshipping the Torah and the scrolls or Jesus Christ?

Ray! My friend! We have "talked" before! I thought
you would know my answer to this question!

But since you asked, I would return the favor and
ask you: are you worshiping your holidays or
the Lord? Everyone here knows I could go on,
knows the criticisms I could make of those
holidays, but I will not, because it would make
little difference, and because I am not here to
cause division. Also, this thread is about the
dissolution of division.

Ray, have you ever read that I worship scrolls?
I did not say that, and I do not. However,
Torah is our God's instruction. I do believe that
we are to take that very seriously and to follow His
instructions the best we can.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Yelsew --

I forgot to mention:

I have no personal regard whatsoever to what is
commonly called "Judaism" for Judaism's sake.
I do not attend the ordinary synagogues, and
we are heavily criticized by them for our beliefs.,
just as much as thechurch criticizes us. What I do
regard is what the Bible says, how it tells us to
worship and live, etc. In observing these, yes, I do
love and serve the Messiah -- Y'shua-Jesus. He
is my life, not Judaism.

 

[jimraboin]

Abiyah,

My dear chaverim in Yeshua. I understand fully what you are saying. Gentile Christianity is not the source of one thing in Messiah. Not one! It was a hard and bitter pill for me to admit as much, being a Gentile believer.

That said, we must come together...Jews and Gentiles. Being Torah observant isn't as big a deal as many "Christians" make it. Many of us cannot yet see that we too are being led into Torah observance to those parts that affect us. After all, it is the same Spirit leading Gentiles as it is Jews. The real difference comes from who we each are. Believing Jews have a more intimate connection with more of Torah as it applies specifically to you. Gentiles are not free of Torah even though institutional Christianity imagines as much. What is important is that both groups see each serve Yeshua through the very same faith. And ADONAI has vested his gifts equally amongst both groups. He is no respector of persons.

Only the denominational system which builds upon Catholic error should be removed from Gentile thinking. It is not the foundation. Never has been. It will take a pretty strong hand to bring this about.

But I believe we Gentiles will be brought to a place of sincere humility and love for you and all Jewish believers in fulfillment to John 17. Then the world will know Yeshua is YHWH!

May your G-d, whom I serve, continue to strengthen you and grant you your deepest desire.

Jim

 

[Abiyah]

Thank you, Jim, for your very kind post. You bring
up some important points.

One of these is that some in the church teach and
observe some of the mitzvot without either
knowing or acknowledging this, and while it is
fortunate that while these churches faithfully
teach following some of Torah, it is unfortunate
that they, at the same time, instruct so strongly
against Torah -- God's instruction!!

Just considering some of the 613: </font>

• have no other gods</font>
• make no images for the purpose of
  worship</font>
• don't give your children to Moloch
  (although some churches believe in
  abortion)</font>
• do not practice witchcraft</font>
• do not blaspheme the Holy Name</font>

I think most Christians have no problem with most
Mitzvot, because indeed, as part of the first fruit
of the new covenant, their hearts and minds have
been changed. Unfortunately, they are not being
taught the whole council of our God when part of
His council is so vehemently neglected.

At the same time, however, some "Messianics"
neglect the Apostolic Scriptures to a great fault.
Some have gone so far as to say that Y'shua is
Messiah but not divine!! Both "sides" have some
great repenting and relearning to do.

However, this is the season of reflection, of
introspection, and of repentance. May we all
join in this, seeking our God for those changes
in ourselves to make us more of what He wants
in us.

 

[A_Christian]

As a "Christian" from a gentile background I still
feel close to anyone who has embraced CHRIST as
their personal Savior. I support FRIENDS OF
ISRAEL and receive ISRAEL MY GLORY.

I personally feel that the role of the Messanic
Jewish person is to be a witness to those Jews
who are not saved. He is in a special place of
understanding and comraderie that most Christians
could only wish for.

I have no problems being with fellow "Christians"
and those of a Jewish background are brothers
and sisters in Christ who makes that bond.

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Thank you, Jim, for your very kind post. You bring
up some important points.

One of these is that some in the church teach and
observe some of the mitzvot without either
knowing or acknowledging this, and while it is
fortunate that while these churches faithfully
teach following some of Torah, it is unfortunate
that they, at the same time, instruct so strongly
against Torah -- God's instruction!!

Just considering some of the 613: </font>

• have no other gods</font>
• make no images for the purpose of
  worship</font>
• don't give your children to Moloch
  (although some churches believe in
  abortion)</font>
• do not practice witchcraft</font>
• do not blaspheme the Holy Name</font>

I think most Christians have no problem with most
Mitzvot, because indeed, as part of the first fruit
of the new covenant, their hearts and minds have
been changed. Unfortunately, they are not being
taught the whole council of our God when part of
His council is so vehemently neglected.

At the same time, however, some "Messianics"
neglect the Apostolic Scriptures to a great fault.
Some have gone so far as to say that Y'shua is
Messiah but not divine!! Both "sides" have some
great repenting and relearning to do.

However, this is the season of reflection, of
introspection, and of repentance. May we all
join in this, seeking our God for those changes
in ourselves to make us more of what He wants
in us.

Abiyah,

Now that you know I love you, can I go just a bit further? You want to know what supports the barrier between believing Jews and Gentiles? It is not Torah. No. It is tradition from both sides. Traditions of men is what defines the barrier and what gives it strength. When a Jew speaks of mitzvot, a Gentile sees Jewish traditions not found in Tanakh(Old Testament). When a Gentile speaks of Christianity, a Jew doesn't see grace but past persecutions and vain imaginations taught and invented by Catholicism. Both have their fair share of error. Until we can admit as much, the healing between both groups will not come easy.

Traditions of men are the problem. Not the pure Torah as written in Tanakh.

Yes?

From one who himself sees through a glass darkly.

Love,

Jim

 

[Abiyah]

Jim --

While I agree that it is, indeed, human tradition that
is partly to blame for keeping us apart, I must say
that I believe that it is more: I believe that it is the
unwillingness of Christians (meaning believers
who are not "Messianic") to: </font>

• Accept that the whole Bible remains
  relevant</font>
• Accept that the feasts are not "Jewish
  feasts" but God's feasts (as stated in the
  Torah)</font>
• Understand that their observance is not
  tedium but joy, celebration, and privilege
  which teach deep truths to generations</font>
• Realize that their teaching has come
  down through centuries of anti-Jew
  concepts which have heavily influenced
  their understading and teaching of the
  Bible.</font>

At the same time, in Torah communities, we
have our own similar faults: </font>

• There are those who either insiste
  on conforming with extra-biblical
  traditions or, at least, lok down on
  those who do notconform with them</font>
• There are those who are over-
  zealous for these traditiions</font>
• etc.</font>