One thing a Calvinist has never done.

[SavedByGrace]

Actually members of this board have shown time and time again that everyone does not.

because they are not all true! I note that you are now Reformed1689, after the Confessions of Faith. In this Confession it says that sinners must repent of their sins,

This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self–abhorrancy, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well–pleasing in all things.

Do you accept this?

 

[canadyjd]

but only after the sinner repents and believes.

Well, it seems to me that would be contrary to the meaning of John 3:8.

If God Holy Spirit must wait for something a person does prior to initiating the new birth then He is responding to someone else’s will and not moving according to His own will.

The wind (Spirit) moves as He wills, so is everyone born of the Spirit.

There is no indication in this verse that God Holy Spirit is responding to something a person is doing. In fact, it indicates the person is responding to the will of God Holy Spirit, imo.

If you see God Holy Spirit responding to a person in this verse, please point it out for me.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, it seems to me that would be contrary to the meaning of John 3:8.

If God Holy Spirit must wait for something a person does prior to initiating the new birth then He is responding to someone else’s will and not moving according to His own will.

The wind (Spirit) moves as He wills, so is everyone born of the Spirit.

There is no indication in this verse that God Holy Spirit is responding to something a person is doing. In fact, it indicates the person is responding to the will of God Holy Spirit, imo.

If you see God Holy Spirit responding to a person in this verse, please point it out for me.

peace to you

But neither is there any mention of faith? So the sinner does not have to believe to be saved?

 

[canadyjd]

But neither is there any mention of faith? So the sinner does not have to believe to be saved?

There is no mention of faith because that not the focus of this particular passage. Faith/belief is discussed later in John’s gospel.

This passage is focused on the role of God Holy Spirit in the “rebirth” that leads to salvation. It further explains John’s statement in John 1 that the children of God are born by the will of God.

John is laying a foundation of truth to help us understand our relationship with God and how salvation occurs.

peace to you

 

[Reformed1689]

because they are not all true! I note that you are now Reformed1689, after the Confessions of Faith. In this Confession it says that sinners must repent of their sins,

This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self–abhorrancy, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well–pleasing in all things.

Do you accept this?

You are putting the cart before the horse. Nobody seeks after God and nobody is good without God changing them. Without God calling them individually and directly.

 

[Dave G]

The way you add "to be" to Ephesians 1:4?

I'm not sure what you mean.
I didn't add anything to Ephesians 1:4...

I simply believed what it said;
That the believers at Ephesus were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Why?
So that they would be holy and without blame before Him in love.

To be "in Christ" is to be the recipient of salvation and eternal life.
The choice was made to place someone in Christ, spiritually, before the foundation of the world.

The way you add "of the elect" to John 3:16?

The elect are the "whosoever believeth".
I'm not sure why that seems to elude you.

The Bible uses the terms interchangeably, and addresses believers as God's elect...
As well as "Holy".
"Beloved".
"As lively stones".
"Them that have obtained like faith with us".
"Sheep".
" Wheat".
"Saints".
"Brethren"
and many other terms.


I simply take who the believers are addressed as ( "elect" from other passages, see Colossians 3:12, Luke 18:7, Titus 1:1 ) , and plug it into John 3:16 when I read it.
They are, after all, one and the same.

 

[Dave G]

The way you change "shall be saved" to "are saved"?

I don't actually change it, George, as it says what it says.
But, to me they are two sides of the same coin...

The believer shall be saved, and, the believer is already saved because of election and predestination.
It's a done deal for those who truly believe on Christ.

The way you turn "none that seeketh after God" to "no one calls upon him"?

I haven't turned anything upside down, George.
Based on the terms of 2 Timothy 2:22 , no one can call upon the Lord unless they do so out of a pure heart.
In order for them to call upon Him out of a pure heart, they must first have that heart purified by God.

"Ye must be born again..."

Similarly,
In order for a person to call upon Him in truth ( Psalms 145:18 ), they must have been revealed the truth of who He is...
Please see Matthew 13:17.

No one seeks after God.
So Christ came to seek men.
Once they hear the gospel, they can then call upon him and get saved.

If that's the way you see it, but I disagree.

There's a reason that people believe on Christ and a reason that people do not.
Again and as in other threads, please see John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 10:26 and Philippians 1:29 among others.

 

[Dave G]

Nothing in Romans 3:10-18 said we can't call on God. Show me the verse.

I agree.
Nothing in that passage says that men cannot call on Him.
But there are places that tell us that men do not call on Him ( that is one of them ), that men turn their backs upon Him, suppress the truth in their hearts ( Romans 1:19-32 ) and that men can only come to Him if it has been given to them to do so ( John 6:65 ).

Also, what does this say?

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 ).

George, everyone of us "does evil" in that we are sinners.
Who comes to God if all of us will not come to God?

The answer is in the next verse:

" But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:21 )

The Calvinistic reasoning there is a non sequitur.

We're not talking about John Calvin, George, we're talking about Scripture.

If you don't understand why I believe as I do, then you don't...
I respect that.
But I didn't get it from John Calvin.

Like you, I simply read the Bible and that's how I understand it.

 

[Dave G]

Let's grant, for argument's sake only, that I cannot (actually, won't) call the Prime Minister of Canada.
Does it logically follow that I cannot therefore answer the phone if he calls me?

Not at all, and not according to Romans 8:29-30.
If God "calls" someone, then that person will answer.

They were foreknown, predestinated, justified and glorified.
No one can partake of one without being a partaker of all the rest.

No need to reword Romans 3:10-18 to fit your Calvinistic gnostic paradigm.

I didn't have to reword anything.
I just happen to understand it in context with other statements that the Lord has made throughout the Scriptures.

In addition, I see that to you it's "gnostic" because you don't understand it;
To me, it's not "gnostic", as I understand it quite well.
It's simply a matter of perspective, George.

I'll give the example of those who preach and teach loss of salvation...
To them, "eternal security" for the believer is "gnostic", but to you and me, it's a matter of truth.
I hope that helps.

"words on the page"...

Yes, George.
But I have to ask you, since you appear to doubt my belief of the words on the page...
What do these say to you?

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ).

" who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," ( 2 Timothy 1:9 )

 

[Dave G]

In this Confession it says that sinners must repent of their sins,

This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self–abhorrancy, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well–pleasing in all things.

Do you accept this?

I accept it ( not necessarily the whole confession, but that statement ), SBG.

But notice that nowhere does the confession state that repentance precedes the new birth.
It clearly says that it is an "evangelical grace", and describes a person who has been made sensible of the evils of his sin and by faith in Christ, humbles themselves.

In other words, while repentance is a necessary evidence that must be present in the life of a believer, it is not something that can be used to gain God's favor or to procure the gift of eternal life from Him;
As I've pointed out in other threads, if anything that a man possesses or is given by God were to be used to gain salvation from His eternal wrath, then that would turn the gift ( Romans 6:23 ) of God into a reward, and the Lord into a debtor ( Romans 4:4 ) to sinful men, who can then hold Him responsible to bestow His grace upon whoever meets His requirements;

From my perspective, that puts the whole thing right back under the terms of the Law...
in that man does what God requires, and God rewards them with good things.

If that's the way you think that salvation is accomplished, then I disagree.

To me, that's not grace, that is works and functions in exactly the same way that the Law did...
which could never bring forgiveness of sins but was only meant to show us that we need a Saviour to keep it for us, in God's eyes.

The New Testament in Christ's blood is not anything like the Old one...
That one was made by God with men, who turned around and disobeyed Him time after time and never did fulfill it.
The terms were earthly blessing and cursings for either obedience or disobedience.

The New one is different...

The men and women that God has given to His Son ( John 17:2 ), are the recipients of the covenant and abide by the terms of it.
Grace and forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ...
Whose work during His life and on the cross, was for them.


May God bless you much in your ongoing studies.

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is no mention of faith because that not the focus of this particular passage. Faith/belief is discussed later in John’s gospel.

This passage is focused on the role of God Holy Spirit in the “rebirth” that leads to salvation. It further explains John’s statement in John 1 that the children of God are born by the will of God.

John is laying a foundation of truth to help us understand our relationship with God and how salvation occurs.

peace to you

"rebirth" IS salvation! you are saying that a sinner is "born again" by the Holy Spirit, and then "saved", then they are born again TWICE!!! This is reformed nonsense! In Titus 3:5 Paul is describing the salvation of the sinner, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost". Note the word "regeneration", which in the Greek is, "παλιγγενεσία", from, "πάλιν and γένεσις", which is literally, "new birth"! And uses another word, "ἀνακαίνωσις" (renewing), denoting the complete change brought about by the Holy Spirit in the sinner!

 

[SavedByGrace]

You are putting the cart before the horse. Nobody seeks after God and nobody is good without God changing them. Without God calling them individually and directly.

that is not what I asked you!

 

[SavedByGrace]

But notice that nowhere does the confession state that repentance precedes the new birth

it very clearly says, "saving repentance", which can ONLY preceed salvation! It is impossible for a sinner to repent, and not get saved, this is NOT in the Bible. Might be in the theology that you follow, but not the Holy Bible!

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 10

13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”



He can't.....his order of salvation insists he must be saved first.

Notice it doesnt say :
"WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL GET SAVED.”

He uses the word BE SAVED, which means #1 They are in a Saved state already and #2 they will be preserved saved until the end future tense. So Calling on the name of the Lord is a evidence that the one calling is already saved.

 

[atpollard]

that is not what I asked you!

That happens A LOT on this site.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Actually members of this board have shown time and time again that everyone does not.

Sure, sometimes. That is true of every Theological system, they have also shown that when they DO clearly and accurately elucidate Calvinist teaching, Calvinists pretend that they don't really understand it.
It's a tired argument and no one is falling for it anymore. It makes Calvinists look shifty and dishonest and it undermines their Theology.

 

[atpollard]

Sure, sometimes. That is true of every Theological system, they have also shown that when they DO clearly and accurately elucidate Calvinist teaching, Calvinists pretend that they don't really understand it.
It's a tired argument and no one is falling for it anymore. It makes Calvinists look shifty and dishonest and it undermines their Theology.

Let’s test that theory.
Under Calvinist Theology, why does one person believe the Gospel and another person not believe?

Can YOU explain it?

 

[canadyjd]

"rebirth" IS salvation! you are saying that a sinner is "born again" by the Holy Spirit........!

We are still discussing John 3. Let’s make sure we get that right before we move to another passage.

We have agreed that the “rebirth” in John 3 is a supernatural event that is accomplished by God Holy Spirit according to His will.

You have noted the passage says nothing about “faith” or “belief” during this “rebirth, and asked whether it is necessary for salvation?

You have stated that “rebirth” is salvation and faith must be included.

I believe faith is necessary for salvation, but then why did John not mention faith in John 3 that is specifically explaining the “rebirth” that occurs by the will of God Holy Spirit?

This is one of the reasons I believe salvation to be a process that is initiated by God Holy Spirit. The ultimate end of this process of “rebirth” is faith in Jesus Christ and salvation.

So as I consider other passages of scripture that speak to salvation, I must keep in mind the foundation God has given us in John 3, and my beliefs must be consistent with those truths.

If you understand why I believe what I believe concerning John 3, I’ll be happy to engage you on a passage of your choosing.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

You have noted the passage says nothing about “faith” or “belief” during this “rebirth, and asked whether it is necessary for salvation?

No, I am not saying this at all! What I am saying is, this is a very detailed passage on the rebirth of sinners, and yet there is no mention to either repentance or faith, both of which are musts for any sinner to be "born agian". This passage in John is not giving the whole picture on how a person is born again, but deals with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, a Jewish leader who should have kown better about the spiritual side of rebirth. He spoke of the natural, and Jesus uses this to say there is another, than is not outward and natural, by inward and spiritual, done by the Holy Spirit in the repentant/believing sinner.

Lets move on...

 

[canadyjd]

.....What I am saying is, this is a very detailed passage on the rebirth of sinners, and yet there is no mention to either repentance or faith, both of which are musts for any sinner to be "born agian". This passage in John is not giving the whole picture on how a person is born again,.......

I agree. The whole picture is not presented in John 3, but there are specific truths that are presented.

The “rebirth” is a supernatural work of God Holy Spirit according to His will. This is consistent with John 1 that tells us the children of God are born by the will of God.

Im happy to move on. Pick a passage.

peace to you