One will not get to heaven without living lawfully.

Catholic Convert, I do forgive you, as you have forgiven me numerous times. We are learning together, ain't we ?

 

Don't blame once saved, always saved on Luther. CC just as we protestants need to stop listening to propoganda about the RCC, you need to stop listening to the propoganda about the Reformation.

 

If this is the theory you're going to go by, then please explain what becomes of the person who is saved but does not gain eternal life. I'd also like to see your explanation of the "Woe unto those who do not!!" What is that woe?

I thought I made this fairly clear. Let me try again.

What do we need to be saved from?

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The Original Sin of Adam seperated us from God. Prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve, and by extension (if the Fall had not happened) ALL their progeny, had a FACE TO FACE relationship with the Father. They were children of God, as would have been all born of them. There was deep and intimate communion in the Garden.

ALL of this was lost by the Fall, so that mankind was cast out of the Garden and consigned to DEATH and SEPARATION from God in a state in which sin passes upon us. We all become partakers of sin according to the verse above.

A lamentable condition, n'est ce pas?

THIS is what we need to be saved from. The whole human race needed to be restored to God through the work of a New Adam. Christ is that Adam. (1 Corin. 15:45). He is called the Last Adam. None other will come. He is the New federal head of the family of God, mankind, and as such, has provided an entrance into the kingdom from out state of separation. THIS is salvation, and it is available to ALL mankind, not just an "elect" class (There is much to say about predestination, but this is not the place.)

So, here is the kingdom, the FAMILY of God. All men are called by God's grace. In the mystery of God, some "hear" the call in their souls and respond. They enter the kingdom by the grace of God and become "adopted children." It is all by the loving GRACE of God.

God uses physical and earthly realities which we are familiar with to express to us spiritual truths which we could not otherwise understand. Our Lord used a number of agricultural analogies to present truths spiritually. He called the kingdom a vineyard and the Jewish nation the husbandmen. He called God "Father" and thus gave us who are fathers a great way to understand how God deals with His children.

God also created the institution of the family and all that goes with it. The family is a covenantal institution, with certain rules which govern it. For instance, it is the ELDEST SON to whom is left the inheritance of the father and the responsibility of ruling over the household upon the death of the father. All who are under the family covenant, who have not gone out and established their own families, are under the jurisdiction and authority of the eldest son.

The inhertance is administered by the eldest son also. It is he who distributes to the family the property of the father.

The property of our Heavenly Father, the inheritance which He has waiting for us is ETERNAL LIFE. I gave you the verses which prove this. We have a "foretaste" of this in the Holy Spirit, Who is called "the earnest of the inheritance". Through Him we "taste" eternal life. We get a foretaste of it in our ability to say "NO!!" to sin, to live for God, to experience His presence in our lives, and all the other blessings we have in our life as Christians. But the fullness of this still awaits. It is the inheritance.

In using the analogy of family which God gives us therefore, it is right to say that children who are disobedient to the family rules (God's Law) and bring shame upon the family can be disinherited. They can lose their part in the inheritance which is waiting for them.

St. Paul has warnings against apostasy in every one of his epistles except Philemon? How can this be if to be "saved" is a permanent promise of eternal life? He is talking to believers in these epistles, not to unbelievers.

And the "woe"?

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Here is one of the many warnings in Scripture. The woe is very simple. Those who fall away inherit not eternal life (blessing) but eternal death (cursing).

Let us all strive to be obedient children of the Father, that we might receive that blessing.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

You say this alot,CC, but you never back it up. Now either give the proof with citation or stop spreading this falsehood.

 

1 cor 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

This explanation was actually a lot better as far as setting forth in understandable terms your beliefs.

 

Chemnitz --

Okay. Since you ask for it, here it is:

The Protestant Revolt: Its Pernicious and Tragic Initial Impact.

Now -- Do you have the stomach to read all this, cause it ain't pretty.

The fact of the matter is that there is plenty of sin in the Church, but certain doctrines have certain logical consequences. If you teach people like the simple peasants that they are justified regardless of what they do, guess what? They will act in accord with that teaching.

And while there have indeed been a few really despicable popes and bishops, the canons of the Church councils and the de fide teaching has NEVER sanctioned such behavior. Just go ask those evil popes, if you can search hell long enough to find them!!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Yeah, bearing false witness is never pretty. I am going to assume that it is David Armstrong's work, he should be ashamed for the lies and utter horse stuff he writes. To say that Luther was against education means that this "scholar" skipped over Luther's letter to the princes urging the creation of schools to teach the German children.

Contrary to what he tries to push on to Luther, Luther took Paul's view on chastity, if you could do it fine, otherwise you are better off married.

At least he came close to Luther's position on art.

Luther did not despise the common people, he cared deeply for them. Before you chunk out Luther's letter condemning the peasant revolt, he also condemned the prince's for pushing the people to the point of revolt and for being overzealous in putting down the revolt. Also this fool of an author does not even mention why Luther had the power of the church temporarly transfered to the state, It was because the Bishops weren't doing their jobs.

This website is nothing but anti-reformation propoganda that is on the level of Jack Chick. I would of died laughing at this website if it wasn't for the sad fact you believe this trash. You are no better than the baptists who believe what Jack Chick says about the rcc.

BTW, you are trying to shock somebody who is fairly well read in Luther's writings, it ain't going to work because unlike some I can spot the lies told by the rcc anti-reformation propoganda.

[ June 15, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

Interesting. David Armstrong gives quotes from bibliographies, including a number of texts which are not written by Catholics, and we are accused of having the same approach as Jack Chick.

Just re-inforces my view that those who do not wish to hear the truth will not hear the truth, even if it comes from one of their own.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Well, I can't help what you feel, but the truth is the truth and what was written by this guy isn't the truth and I know because I have read Luther. So when I see stuff like this i know it for the Biased junk that it is. If you want to know the truth about the Reformers you should read the Reformer's works themselves instead of what some RCC propogandist tells you they say. Daniel Olivier, a RCC scholar, claims that most works produced by RCC scholars on Luther are nothing but anti-reformation propoganda.

I think it is sad however that I ask you to prove that Luther taught once saved always saved and instead of being able to produce Luther you have to post a website of questionable credability.

 

I'm sorry. I thought you were asking me to prove the lamentable moral condition of the German people after the "reformation".

It does seem, however, that there is correlation between what we believe in our hearts and what we practice, is there not?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Then you would of noticed that Luther did set out to correct the abuses of the laity and the radical clergy. He originally came out of hiding after the diet of worms against the counsel of Prince Fredrick, because of the abuses going on in Wittenberg during his absense in order to correct the abuses.

 

Amen!