Oneness doctrine

[DHK]

They are both wrong, and I am not being inconsistant.

Its 2 different circumstances.

You are being inconsistent.
First, you should go back to the CARM website, or any other apologetic website and read more on what the Oneness believe about the trinity. They deny the trinity. They don't believe in a trinity. We used to debate them on this board.

Second, having said that, that makes them no different than the J.W.'s. If you would start with the trinity with the J.W., then why wouldn't that be your approach with the Oneness. You are inconsistent.

Frankly, my approach is with the New Birth. Then I proceed to the deity of Christ. A denial of the trinity is a denial of the deity of Christ, for the ultimate conclusion of that denial is the worship of another god, not Christ who alone is deity.

 

[Alive in Christ]

You are being inconsistent.

I am not being inconsistant. The Oneness and the JW's are different from one another.

You have heard of "carpet bombing" I'm sure. Well, I do not "Carpet Condemn"

First, you should go back to the CARM website, or any other apologetic website and read more on what the Oneness believe about the trinity. They deny the trinity. They don't believe in a trinity. We used to debate them on this board.

I didnt know that.

Second, having said that, that makes them no different than the J.W.'s. If you would start with the trinity with the J.W., then why wouldn't that be your approach with the Oneness.

I've already explained that to you. Dont you remember?

Here it is one more time...

The issue with the JW's is that they completely deny the Diety of Christ. And I think they believe the Trinity concept came from paganism.

The One-ness group acknowledges that God manifests Himself in a "Triune" manner, but they deny the "3 persons" part of the Godhead.

You are inconsistent.

I am not being inconsistent. The JW's and Oneness are different groups with different issues.

Frankly, my approach is with the New Birth. Then I proceed to the deity of Christ. A denial of the trinity is a denial of the deity of Christ, for the ultimate conclusion of that denial is the worship of another god, not Christ who alone is deity.

Thats a good plan. I go at it that way sometimes.

AiC

 

[Dr. Walter]

At what point is someone saved? When they understand the Trinity or when they hear about a God who died for them and accept him?

You are not carefully reading my posts. I have said repeatedly that salvation is not dependent upon full comphrehension of the Trinity. I have also said repeatedly that a person cannot be saved who is in denial of the Trinity any more than a person can be saved if they believe in "another Jesus" or "another gospel."

You obviously do not understand what "idolatry" is! An idolatrous person cannot be saved until they turn from their false perception of God unto the True and Living God. That turning requires revelation of the true God, such revelation that turns the person from his false concepts of God which is the basis of idolatry.

 

[Stanedglass]

You are not carefully reading my posts. I have said repeatedly that salvation is not dependent upon full comphrehension of the Trinity. I have also said repeatedly that a person cannot be saved who is in denial of the Trinity any more than a person can be saved if they believe in "another Jesus" or "another gospel."

You obviously do not understand what "idolatry" is! An idolatrous person cannot be saved until they turn from their false perception of God unto the True and Living God. That turning requires revelation of the true God, such revelation that turns the person from his false concepts of God which is the basis of idolatry.

I beg to differ. If some one worships Jesus as God but not the 2nd person in the Godhead you're telling me they are guilty of idolatry, are in error ,and are unsaved.

I know plenty of Oneness and plenty of Trinitarians who view the Trinity as the same but are caught up on the wordeology of things. If Oneness see God as one and Trinitarians see God as one both are worshipping the same God.

If I were to meet President Obama and new him as the President and you met him and didn't know him as President, we have still met and known the same person.

If Oneness believers put their trust in Jesus Christ, according to faith alone, they are saved. What difference does it make if they believe they have to speak in tongues, if they view the Godhead differently, wether they baptize differently. It doesn't...according to faith alone! Now if most of you who hold fast to faith alone only saves, and disagree with the previous sentence, I would like to challenge your understanding of "faith alone".

If Trinitarian believers put their trust in Jesus Christ, according to faith alone they are saved as well. What difference does it make if they see Jesus as 1st or 2nd or 3rd. It doesn't...accordig to faith alone!

 

[Dr. Walter]

I beg to differ. If some one worships Jesus as God but not the 2nd person in the Godhead you're telling me they are guilty of idolatry, are in error ,and are unsaved.

Hence, in your estimation there is not "another Jesus"? Hence, in your estimation you can deny the Father without denyng the Son and you can honor the Son without honoring the Father???? Hence in your estimation the Father and Son are not inseparable but can be separated distinctly in the mind of saved people as One being God but not the Other:

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

In your estimation you can hate the Father without hating the Son or hate the Son without hating the Father:

Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.


In your estimation you believe in the Son without believing in the Father for eternal life:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

In your estimation Christ is a FALSE WITNESS as you beleive He is confirmed to be God the Son without the Father's witness

John 5:31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Your problem is with the scriptures as they do not agree with your humanistic assessments.

If I were to meet President Obama and new him as the President and you met him and didn't know him as President, we have still met and known the same person.

This is because we actually met the SAME person and his TITLE had no bearing on who he IS as a Person. However this is not true with God. His titles are descriptives of Who He is as a Person. You cannot deny the Father without denying the Son and you cannot deny the Son without denying the Father and you cannot believe in the Son without believing in the Father (Jn. 5:24; 17:3).

Again Idolatry is the wrong CONCEPT of Who God Is! The Unitarian is an Idolater. The Oneness person is an Idolatry to serves "another Jesus" who IS not the Jesus of the Scriptures but one of his own imagination.

If Oneness believers put their trust in Jesus Christ,

Faith in WHAT JESUS? Faith in WHICH Jesus? The Jesus revealed in the Scriptures or "another Jesus" that is THE FATHER and THE SPIRIT for which the Scriptures know nothing about????? You are deceived my friend.

The question Jesus asked His Disciples was "Who do you believe I am?" May I ask you that same question? Who do YOU believe Jesus is?


The only SAVING revelation given by God is "Thou art the Christ the SON OF THE LIVING GOD" any other answer is evidence that God has not savingly revealed Himself to you or any other person (Mt. 16:17; Jn. 17:3).

What difference does it make if they see Jesus as 1st or 2nd or 3rd. It doesn't...accordig to faith alone!

It makes a differnence because the Bible speaks of "another Jesus" that is not the Jesus REVEALED in Scriptures and if that is the OBJECT of your faith you are still a lost man. Salvation is a revelation of the "TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3; 2 Cor. 4:6).

 

[DHK]

I know plenty of Oneness and plenty of Trinitarians who view the Trinity as the same but are caught up on the wordeology of things. If Oneness see God as one and Trinitarians see God as one both are worshipping the same God.

You are deceived about Oneness.
All Oneness deny the Trinity.
First, go to CARM website and find out what they believe, or to any other apologetic website.
Second, realize what I am saying. The Oneness used to post here. They were banned for their beliefs, one of them being that they did not believe in the trinity, a basic orthodox belief of Christianity. They do deny the trinity. This is a fact which cannot be denied.

 

[Stanedglass]

Hence, in your estimation there is not "another Jesus"? Hence, in your estimation you can deny the Father without denyng the Son and you can honor the Son without honoring the Father???? Hence in your estimation the Father and Son are not inseparable but can be separated distinctly in the mind of saved people as One being God but not the Other:

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

In your estimation you can hate the Father without hating the Son or hate the Son without hating the Father:

Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.


In your estimation you believe in the Son without believing in the Father for eternal life:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

In your estimation Christ is a FALSE WITNESS as you beleive He is confirmed to be God the Son without the Father's witness

John 5:31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Your problem is with the scriptures as they do not agree with your humanistic assessments.





This is because we actually met the SAME person and his TITLE had no bearing on who he IS as a Person. However this is not true with God. His titles are descriptives of Who He is as a Person. You cannot deny the Father without denying the Son and you cannot deny the Son without denying the Father and you cannot believe in the Son without believing in the Father (Jn. 5:24; 17:3).

Again Idolatry is the wrong CONCEPT of Who God Is! The Unitarian is an Idolater. The Oneness person is an Idolatry to serves "another Jesus" who IS not the Jesus of the Scriptures but one of his own imagination.



Faith in WHAT JESUS? Faith in WHICH Jesus? The Jesus revealed in the Scriptures or "another Jesus" that is THE FATHER and THE SPIRIT for which the Scriptures know nothing about????? You are deceived my friend.

The question Jesus asked His Disciples was "Who do you believe I am?" May I ask you that same question? Who do YOU believe Jesus is?


The only SAVING revelation given by God is "Thou art the Christ the SON OF THE LIVING GOD" any other answer is evidence that God has not savingly revealed Himself to you or any other person (Mt. 16:17; Jn. 17:3).




It makes a differnence because the Bible speaks of "another Jesus" that is not the Jesus REVEALED in Scriptures and if that is the OBJECT of your faith you are still a lost man. Salvation is a revelation of the "TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3; 2 Cor. 4:6).

See this is how when your theology is disected you try to debunk others that don't believe the way you do. If they say you have to be baptized, you say no faith alone. If they say Faith alone, you say well...which Jesus are you putting your faith in. If they say I'm putting my faith in Jesus Christ, you say well the one true god Jesus or the second person. If they say the One True God, you say No, Jesus is the 2nd person and now you are worshipping idols.

Why cant it ever be just about serving Christ? About obeying him, trusting him, loving him, putting your faith in him and worshipping him.

If we worship Jesus we worship the Father. If we deny Jesus we deny the Father. Have I been with you so long and yet hast thou not know me? He that hath seen me has seen the Father. John 14. If we do everything in the Name of Jesus we are giving Glory to The father by doing so. Col 3:17

Oneness and Trinitarians are not worshipping seperate Gods. You are both worshipping the same Creator. And who are we anyway to say that we are worshipping two seperate Gods? If the fruits of the spirit are visible in those that you are opposed to then I think you may to check your own views.

Salvation and the Spirit are not dependent upon our understanding. Its dependent upon the one we put our faith in. And if I say that I put my faith in Jesus of Nazareth and not the 2nd person, that's who I put my faiith in.

Jesus died for all of us. Not just for the ones who adopt a trinitarian view. And if anyone, chooses to believe that Jesus is the Father incarnate, and that they are all the same Spirit, Did God say that if you believe that we are completley one you cannot be saved. NO, infact, scripture has about 900,000 more references to him being one than three if you want to get technical.

Most theologians make me so thankful that Christ said that if you want to be saved you must be converted and become as little children. Little Children have no concept of how anything works. Only they put thier faith in whoever it is that they love and obey their voice. Thats really all there is to it. Putting our Faith in Christ and following his voice!

 

[DHK]

See this is how when your theology is disected you try to debunk others that don't believe the way you do. If they say you have to be baptized, you say no faith alone.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

There is no baptism in the above verse. Salvation is by faith alone, as can be shown in dozens of other verses like Eph.2:8,9.
If salvation is by faith alone, and Oneness say that baptism is required for salvation, then according to Oneness, salvation is not by faith alone. It is by faith + baptism. That is not by faith alone. It is a heresy called baptismal regeneration or salvation by baptism. Actually they put two requirements: baptism plus speaking in tongues. Both of these are works. Their salvation is not by faith it is by works. It is a works-based salvation. It is not by faith at all. It is totally heretical. One who puts their faith in baptism and tongues instead of Christ cannot be saved. And that is what Oneness do.

 

[Stanedglass]

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

There is no baptism in the above verse. Salvation is by faith alone, as can be shown in dozens of other verses like Eph.2:8,9.
If salvation is by faith alone, and Oneness say that baptism is required for salvation, then according to Oneness, salvation is not by faith alone. It is by faith + baptism. That is not by faith alone. It is a heresy called baptismal regeneration or salvation by baptism. Actually they put two requirements: baptism plus speaking in tongues. Both of these are works. Their salvation is not by faith it is by works. It is a works-based salvation. It is not by faith at all. It is totally heretical. One who puts their faith in baptism and tongues instead of Christ cannot be saved. And that is what Oneness do.

I'm not even talking about baptism. I'm just making the point how we as people believe a certain way and if no one believes something EXACTLY the way WE do we deem them wrong and unsaved.

When do we just shut up and let God Judge?

 

[DHK]

I'm not even talking about baptism. I'm just making the point how we as people believe a certain way and if no one believes something EXACTLY the way WE do we deem them wrong and unsaved.

When do we just shut up and let God Judge?

Don't be so rude. This is a debate forum. If you can't take the heat get out of the fire.
And yes you did refer to baptism. Here is the quote I referred to. I quoted you word for word.

See this is how when your theology is disected you try to debunk others that don't believe the way you do. If they say you have to be baptized, you say no faith alone.

BTW, your denomination is not listed. Are you also Oneness?
What is your religious background?

 

[DHK]

The year is now 2011; I think we all know that.
Stainedglass joined in 2008; he has been arguing these same old things over and over again. His beliefs are the same as Oneness.

Take for example this quote one and a half years ago in 2009:

That he is still GOD! Just b/c he is the only begotten son doesn't make him 2nd.

If we really want to go there, Jeus is considered the " The Almighty God, The Everlasing Father" in Isa 9:6. So what does that mean in the light of the Trinity?

This is a basic denial of the trinity.
He denies that Christ is the second person of the trinity.
He believes that Christ is the Father, a heresy.
If pushed, he would say that Christ was a manifestation of the Father in the time of Christ.

This quote can be found here:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1455500&postcount=96

There are many other similar quotes in the same thread.
In many of them he denies that Christ is the second person of the trinity, which in essence is a denial of the trinity itself. http://baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1455500

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Don't be so rude. This is a debate forum. If you can't take the heat get out of the fire.
----snip----

Coming from DHK this is "Fair Warning".

He and I have crossed swords a few times...

I being a Classical Pentecostal and he being about as anti-Pentecostal as any on this board, IIRK...

We are both hard headed and stubborn...


But, semantics can be an issue.

And, sometimes we do go off half cocked when we hear something that doesn't match what we learned in Sunday School.


However, there are some things both DHK and I have learned the hard way over time...

And, The Oneness Pentecostal Cults are one thing we both agree on.

It isn't mere Semantics, or Verbiage involved it's a diametrically opposed to the Simple Gospel teaching cult.

When you are taught that no matter how many times you repent and ask Jesus to forgive your sins that you are _NOT_ saved until you speak in tongues that is WRONG!!!!!!!! Unbiblical and a lie...

This bondage to fear alone should be enough of a warning because:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

[Dr. Walter]

See this is how when your theology is disected you try to debunk others that don't believe the way you do. If they say you have to be baptized, you say no faith alone. If they say Faith alone, you say well...which Jesus are you putting your faith in. If they say I'm putting my faith in Jesus Christ, you say well the one true god Jesus or the second person. If they say the One True God, you say No, Jesus is the 2nd person and now you are worshipping idols.

What is this "they say" and "you say" business? The scripture is the final rule of authority. I placed the scriptures before and all you do is whine! Deal with the Scriptures or drop out of the discussion.

Why cant it ever be just about serving Christ? About obeying him, trusting him, loving him, putting your faith in him and worshipping him.

There is no GENERIC Jesus Christ and there is no GENERIC God in the Scriptures just as there is no GENERIC gospel or way of salvation in the Scriptures.

Here is your problem, the Scriptures speak of "another Jesus" that is a false concept in the mind of heretics just as it speaks of "another gospel" that is a false concept in the mind of heretics. Faith in either one cannot save the heretic or anyone else who follows that false concept. If you reject the biblical revelation of who the true God is, then you do not beleive in the God of the Bible. If you reject the Biblical revelation of Jesus then you do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible. You believe in "another Jesus."

If we worship Jesus we worship the Father. If we deny Jesus we deny the Father. Have I been with you so long and yet hast thou not know me? He that hath seen me has seen the Father. John 14. If we do everything in the Name of Jesus we are giving Glory to The father by doing so. Col 3:17

Jesus did not say "I AM the Father" but said if you have seen him you have seen the Father as Jesus is a revelation of God in the flesh. Jesus did not say "I and the Father are one" (masculine gender) person" but "I and the Father are one (neuter gender)" in nature. Jesus denied that his witness alone is true but called upon the Biblical rule that every word should be confirmed by the minimum of TWO and perhaps THREE witnesses and he claimed the Father was an independent witness to Himself. Your doctrine is false, Your god is false and your Jesus is false - THEY DON'T EXIST except in the mind of idolater!

 

[billwald]

The Holy Spirit CAN'T regenerate a person who doesn't "believe in" Jesus? That is clearly NOT what John 3 teaches!

 

[DHK]

The Holy Spirit CAN'T regenerate a person who doesn't "believe in" Jesus? That is clearly NOT what John 3 teaches!

What John 3 teaches is the same as John 1.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)

Salvation comes by those that believe on his name.
It is that simple. But who is the one that bears that name? Look in verse 11.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (John 1:11)
--It is the one whom the Jews rejected--Christ, the Messiah, the second person of the triune Godhead. He declared himself to be God (John 10:30) and for that reason the Jews tried to stone him. They rejected him.

But John writes about who he really is. Look at verse 14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
He is the Word (the second person of the trinity--see 1John 5:7), and John says "we" (the apostles) beheld him (God), full of grace and glory.

 

[billwald]

Regeneration temporally precedes conversion. Conversion is the human response to being regenerated. If the regenerated person gets hit by a bus before he converts . . . .

 

[DHK]

Regeneration temporally precedes conversion. Conversion is the human response to being regenerated. If the regenerated person gets hit by a bus before he converts . . . .

Only if your a Calvinist is that true. I am not a Calvinist, hence for me that is not true. I follow the Bible.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Regeneration temporally precedes conversion. Conversion is the human response to being regenerated. If the regenerated person gets hit by a bus before he converts . . . .

God does not regenerate what He does not convert. There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever.

 

[Stanedglass]

What is this "they say" and "you say" business? *The scripture is the final rule of authority. I placed the scriptures before and all you do is whine! *Deal with the Scriptures or drop out of the discussion.

Deal with scripture or deal with your interpretation of scripture. *Scripture is the final authority and all I'm doing is saying that both sides use scripture. Both sides hold true to their interpretation*

The Pharasses tried to get Jesus to deal with their interpretation of scripture as well and ended up missing their king. It's just sad that you're missing yours as well!

I've dealt with scripture and accepted my surrender to the truth as I believe and know it to be.*

I'm confident in knowing that my salvation or anyone elses is not dependent upon a man made concept that says that you have to acknowledge Jesus as 2nd

Rev 1:11 ...I am first


There is no GENERIC Jesus Christ and there is no GENERIC God in the Scriptures just as there is no GENERIC gospel or way of salvation in the Scriptures.*

Here is your problem, the Scriptures speak of "another Jesus" that is a false concept in the mind of heretics just as it speaks of "another gospel" that is a false concept in the mind of heretics. Faith in either one cannot save the heretic or anyone else who follows that false concept. *If you reject the biblical revelation of who the true God is, then you do not beleive in the God of the Bible. *If you reject the Biblical revelation of Jesus then you do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible. *You believe in "another Jesus."

And it's your your concept that causes you to think you've risen to the top of a mountain when all you've done is fallen to the bottom of a well.*

Jesus did not say "I AM the Father" but said if you have seen him you have seen the Father as Jesus is a revelation of God in the flesh. *Jesus did not say "I and the Father are one" (masculine gender) *person" but "I and the Father are one (neuter gender)" in nature. *Jesus denied that his witness alone is true but called upon the Biblical rule that every word should be confirmed by the minimum of TWO and perhaps THREE witnesses and he claimed the Father was an independent witness to Himself. *Your doctrine is false, Your god is false and your Jesus is false - THEY DON'T EXIST except in the mind of idolater!

Opinions vary!

 

[webdog]

I'm confident in knowing that my salvation or anyone elses is not dependent upon a man made concept that says that you have to acknowledge Jesus as 2nd

I keep reading this "second" stuff, and am unsure what is meant by it. There is no rank in the Godhead...so what does this mean?