Oneness Theology versus Trinity

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:

Or better yet, try finding water baptism using the titles F,S,and HG in the Bible.

DHK, it just ain't there!

MEE

What more proof do you want? I just quoted Mat.28:19,20 from the Bible. It is in every translation that I know of (except possibly yours). What do you use--the Oneness Only Translation. This was a command of Jesus: "Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
So who shall I believe? God's Word. or you?
I think I'll stay with God's Word.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Well, I think I'm staying with God's Word. I use the KJV. Why are you getting so defensive?

When Peter told the people to:

.... Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)..that's exactly what Peter told the Jews to do...be baptized in the (NAME) of the F,S, & H G...which is Jesus Christ.

Peter knew what Jesus meant when he told them the commandment of Matthew 28:19.

It goes right along with Matthew 28:19. Notice it says, "..in the name not name(s) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles.

DHK, dont' get angry with me, I didn't write the book, I just obey it.

MEE

 

[Ben W]

So Mee, why not follow this instruction from your Bible?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Ben W:
So Mee, why not follow this instruction from your Bible?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ben, what is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

MEE

 

[DHK]

Ignatius lived between 30 and 70 A.D.
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning485 of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united486 and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.html

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537 but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538 Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vii.html

It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not to be one. “The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.”591 Men “believe with the heart, and confess with the mouth,” the one “unto righteousness,” the other “unto salvation.”592 It is good to teach, if he who speaks also acts. For he who shall both “do and teach, the same shall be great in the kingdom.”593 Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.”594 There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,595 and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.html

There is no way that the Oneness doctrine can reconcile their doctrine with the early church fathers. It took only about 15 minutes to find these quotes. Some further research may find an understanding of the trinity among the early church fathers, as it is taught in the Scriptures.
DHK

 

[Ben W]

The name is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ben W:
So Mee, why not follow this instruction from your Bible?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ben, what is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]That answeer is so simple that you continue to miss it.
The "name" is singular because it refers to a singular God. God is one, but one God in three persons.
It does not use the term "naames" because it does not refer to three gods, as you falsely accuse trinitarian of believing in. Because you can't understand a concept, you don't believe it. Foolishness!

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
Ignatius lived between 30 and 70 A.D.
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning485 of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united486 and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.html

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537 but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538 Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vii.html

It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not to be one. “The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.”591 Men “believe with the heart, and confess with the mouth,” the one “unto righteousness,” the other “unto salvation.”592 It is good to teach, if he who speaks also acts. For he who shall both “do and teach, the same shall be great in the kingdom.”593 Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.”594 There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,595 and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.html

There is no way that the Oneness doctrine can reconcile their doctrine with the early church fathers. It took only about 15 minutes to find these quotes. Some further research may find an understanding of the trinity among the early church fathers, as it is taught in the Scriptures.
DHK

I thought we were talking about water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ/F,S, and H.G.

MEE

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
[QB]

That answeer is so simple that you continue to miss it.
The "name" is singular because it refers to a singular God. God is one, but one God in three persons.
It does not use the term "naames" because it does not refer to three gods, as you falsely accuse trinitarian of believing in. Because you can't understand a concept, you don't believe it. Foolishness!


**Gee DHK, calm down! I know there is only one God and why it reads 'name' and not 'name(s).' Don't get so upset!

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
I thought we were talking about water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ/F,S, and H.G.

MEE

We are. "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit speaks of the trinity--three persons in one God. The quotes above gave irrefutable evidence that even the early church fathers believed in the trinity, although they did not directly say so. The quotes mentioned God the Father and Jesus Christ as God. Oneness believes that the Son is a manifestation of the Father. But those quotes show that their belief was the existence of both the Son and the Father as God at the same time. Hence (with the Holy Spirit) a triune Godhead.

I did not read far enough into their writings yet to find what they said at baptism. But I doubt very much that they would disobey the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, who commands to baptize in the name of the trinity.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
[QB]

That answeer is so simple that you continue to miss it.
The "name" is singular because it refers to a singular God. God is one, but one God in three persons.
It does not use the term "naames" because it does not refer to three gods, as you falsely accuse trinitarian of believing in. Because you can't understand a concept, you don't believe it. Foolishness!


**Gee DHK, calm down! I know there is only one God and why it reads 'name' and not 'name(s).' Don't get so upset!

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]In the name of...
In the name of the triune Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
That is fairly simple isn't it?

 

[MEE]

You are too smart not to see it. Could it be that you have too much to loose if you admit it?

Yes it is "fairly simple." You asked and I showed proof if one would go to the sites that I mentioned. I can't make you believe anything.

If I could post 'links' I could show things better. Since that it is against the BB rules for me to use links for my research, I'll just have to pray that someone will follow, listen, and read what's in God's Word. It's not fair, but that's life. We all have a choice.

BTW, the early church fathers didn't believe in a trinity, that's why they didn't directly say so.

MEE

 

[Eric B]

2. Contrary to popular belief, the pre-nicene fathers had a rather clear understanding of the trinity. Tertullian and Gregory the Great even used the term "trinity" in the 200's.

The creedal understandings were developing at that time. So what we see are statements mentioning the Father and divine Christ, but not statements about "three equal, eternal persons". Nobody laid it out as such a precise formula until Athanasius, and even then, many were suspicious of it.
The debate here is getting down to the word "person" versus "manifestation". Neither is used in scripture in any formula of the Godhead. The term hypostasis, is only used in the Bible regarding the Father with the Son as His express image (Heb.1:3), and "manifest" is used of the Incarnate Son in 1 Tim.3:16.
So once again, we cannot judge people too harshly (as necessarily worshipping another god) based on creedal statements. (Yes, modalism is in error. But once again, I see the more accepted "three men in unity" as even further from the truth, but since it is more in loine with the creedal statement of "persons", people who hold this are not accused of worshipping false gods). For if turns out that their terminology was imperfect, then we could all be accused of worshipping a false god if judged by a similar principle.

 

[DHK]

Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

www.carm.org

God is a trinity, the triune Godhead: three persons in one Godhead, which the Oneness people deny. Their view of "manifestation" theology is hereys to the umpteenth degree.

They say that the "the Father was the God of the Old Testament.
They go on to say that when Christ came he is the Father. Now there is no more Father. Cross him out Kick him out. Get rid of the Fathoer, the Jehovah of the Old Testament. For Christ is a manifestation of the Father. There always must only be one God. The Son is deity only in this sense, that he takes the place of the Father. Delete the Father of the Old Testament once Christ has come. Christ is the manifestation of the Father. There can only be one God.

But now we live in the age of the Holy Spirit. There can only be one God. Therefore the Holy Spirit has become the manifestation of God. Delete the Father and the Son. They don't count any more. It is the Holy Spirit that now takes the place of God. He is the manifestation of God. This is what the word "manifestation" means in the eyes of the Oneness people. There can only be one God.

Thus when you have all three persons of the trinity present at one time (as in the baptism of Jesus), the Oneness people are at a loss for explanation.
Can you see the heresy here. Their definition of the word "person" has changed from the Bible or dictionary definition of person as well, just to confuse things even further. It is one messed up theology full of gross error.
DHK

 

[wopik]

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition, article: Spirit of God (all quotes come from this article) ---

"The OT (Old Testament) clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's Power.

If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Isa. 48:16; 63:11; 32:15).......Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Isa. 63:10; Wis.1:3-7). When such expressions are used, THEY ARE MERE FIGURES OF SPEECH that are explained by the fact that the RUAH was regarded also as the seat of intellectual acts and feeling (Gen. 41:8)."

THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA FURTHER STATES:

".......the NT (New Testament) concepts of the Spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT.......The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.

When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to God's spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8:29; 16:7; Rom.8:9), one is NOT JUSTIFIED IN CONCLUDING immediately that in these passages God's spirit is regarded as a Person; the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (see Rom.6:6; 7:17).

Thus the context of the phrase 'blasphemy against the spirit' (Mat.12:31; cf. Mat.12:28; Luke 11:20) shows that reference is being made to the power of God".

 

[DHK]

Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods.
In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"?
I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect.

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

1. A person exists and has identity.
2. A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
1. This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
3. A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
4. A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
1. This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
2. Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
5. A person possesses a will.
1. A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
6. A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
1. Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
2. Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
7. A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
8. Persons do not need to have bodies.
1. God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
2. Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).

God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead.

http://www.carm.org/oneness/3persons.htm

Even though a Spirit, God has "person" like qualities, otherwise you would not be able to pray to HIM. He is not an "it" He is a person.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Well, looks like you took all day to come up with how the trinity is made up of three gods/persons.

If I could put just post one link on this board I could take everything you posted down in a heartbeat DHK.

..as in scripture, dates, names and facts!

If anyone wants it, send me and e-mail or a PM!

MEE

 

[DHK]

I have never heard any decent response from you concerning the baptism of Jesus MEE.
Jesus Christ, was being baptized. We don't deny his deity do we?
At the same time the the person of the Holy Spirit was descending upon Him in the form of a dove.
At the same time the person of the Father in Heaven was booming out his voice saying "This is my beloved Son, hear ye Him."

How do you account for all three persons of the trinity present at the same time--each visible or accountable to the senses by all present.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
I have never heard any decent response from you concerning the baptism of Jesus MEE.
Jesus Christ, was being baptized. We don't deny his deity do we?
At the same time the the person of the Holy Spirit was descending upon Him in the form of a dove.
At the same time the person of the Father in Heaven was booming out his voice saying "This is my beloved Son, hear ye Him."

How do you account for all three persons of the trinity present at the same time--each visible or accountable to the senses by all present.
DHK

I don't account for three persons of the trinity that were present. God isn't made-up of three persons.

The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord. Therefore; we have only one God.

At Jesus' baptism does it say that anyone saw three persons? No!...just one, Jesus Christ.

As I said before, if I could post the link that would explain this much better, then all could see God for what He really is..but I can't because the board has my hands tied.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
I don't account for three persons of the trinity that were present. God isn't made-up of three persons.

The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord. Therefore; we have only one God.

At Jesus' baptism does it say that anyone saw three persons? No!...just one, Jesus Christ.

As I said before, if I could post the link that would explain this much better, then all could see God for what He really is..but I can't because the board has my hands tied.

MEE

A voice came out of heaven MEE. Do you agree with the Scriptures here or not? Who did the voice come from? Or did come from a "what?" Was it not God the Father's voice? Is he not a person? Do people talk? Does God talk? Did God talk to Moses as it were face to face. Was God a person--then, in Moses time; then, in Christ's time. If not, where did the voice come from. Was it from the big bang? People have voices. People communicate. God the Father is a person, acted and communicated as a person. Do you really want to deny that?
DHK

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
Do you believe that if a person is baptized in Jesus Name that they are of the Devil. The book of Acts says mentions that people were baptized in the Name of Jesus.
Were they of the Devil?

Absolutely not! You won't find where anyone was baptized in any other name other than Jesus Christ or the Lord Jesus Christ, beginning with the NT Church, on the Day of Pentecost. </font>[/QUOTE]Yet, you have Matthew 28:18. You are trying to make an argument from silence. Just because you do not have a specific incident recorded does not mean that it did not occur, especially in light of Matthew 28:18.

Of course we all know that it was changed by the RCC to using the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost....which I might add, are not His name.

No, we don’t know. You are begging the question. Furthermore, some things the RC’s believe and teach (e.g. the Virgin Birth) are true. This is a propaganda technique called “guilt by association.” It won’t work.

The name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus.

God has many other names too. Just read the OT. You’ll find many names referring to God. Whereas I do believe that Jesus is fully God, I do believe that He is a distinct person of the Godhead. Can you give me a Scripture reference clearly indicating that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus? Jesus is the incarnate Son.

Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

MEE

Yes, I believe this but it doesn't prove what you are saying.

Interpret Acts 4:12 in light of John 14:6--Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now, consider these verses when you try to amalgamate the Father and the Son.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: (Is Jesus praying to himself?)

Since you are obviously anti-Trinitarian and accept the KJV as the Word of God, what do you make of the plural pronoun forms used in Genesis?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

These are obviously plural pronouns in the KJV.

Although you may reject it, the Hebrew word translated God, transliterated into English as Elohim, in Genesis 1:26 is in plural form too. Now, I ask you: Who took part in creation with God? If you search your concordance, you will find the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit given credit for participating in creation.