Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Can you say here we go around the mulberry bush.

Indeed! If you would like to answer those questions again feel free to join in. I am out of here.

Oneness,

All the answers that you seek are in the Word of God. Read it for what it says, not what you want it to say and it will make a lot more sense.

Good luck to ya

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Can you say here we go around the mulberry bush.

Would you rather answer the questions? Or would you like to run away with Lorelie, as well?

Oneness,

All the answers that you seek are in the Word of God. Read it for what it says, not what you want it to say and it will make a lot more sense.

Good luck to ya

~Lorelei

Thats right Lorelie, Run Run Run as fast as you can.

You keep reading it for what it says, and I will Keep reading it for what it means.

I knew thats what would happen when you get faced with questions thats hard for you to answer, You run.

I have been sitting in the hot seat for a long while, defending the Oneness of God, answering your profound questions about some make beleve, Fairy taled, Hocus Pocus Trinity.

So i think you atleast owe it to me to sit and finish the discussion.

Take care.

How many Spirits are there in the Godhead?

Is the Son a Spirit?

How is Jesus going to be in us?

How did Jesus raise himself from the dead?

How can you give thanks to God and thanks to the Father by him?

Phillip asked "Show us the Father and it sufficeth us. Jesus said Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME Phillip? He that hast seen Me hast seen(past tence) the Father and how sayest thou show us the father?

Jesus just told phillip he was the father. Where is the difficulty in seeing that?

Is the creator an us?

[ September 26, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
You keep reading it for what it says, and I will Keep reading it for what it means.

Sounds like you're telling God what He said. God is the author of His word, I'll take what He says over what you claim He means any day.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
You keep reading it for what it says, and I will Keep reading it for what it means.

Sounds like you're telling God what He said. God is the author of His word, I'll take what He says over what you claim He means any day.</font>[/QUOTE]Ok Hunter, please show me where it says three persons in the God head. If you take it for what it says it says nothing of the sort.

God bless

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

The questions you have asked reveal that your problem with believing in a Triune God is based upon your lack of ability to comprehend and understand how it can be so. You think you have this God in a box and can explain things about Him that even the Bible does not tell us, and that is fine.

I am not wasting my time on speculating at exactly what we will see when we get to heaven. All we can know is what the Bible tells us. Your problem is, you think that the Bible must form to a mold that our human mind creates, and that simply isn't true.

As for your accusation against me, I refer back to my last posts before my daughter had surgery. It doesn't appear that you saved up your questions for me, and I answered each and every question that you asked me.

You still haven't answered the original one about Genesis 1:26, nor will you address any of the scriptures that I present in a truthful manner.

When I show you scripture that supports my belief, you (as others have pointed out as well) try to tell me what God really meant to say. The Bible means what it says, like it or not, and I won't bother with someone who will twist the words that are so clearly stated.

Call me names, if it makes you feel better, if you knew the Word of God, you would know that after a time, we are told not to bother any longer.

Titus 3:9-11

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
NIV

2 Tim 2:23-26
23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
NIV

I would think it would do you good to keep this in mind. Not only do these verses tell us to have nothing to do with people who refuse to listen, it also tells us to gently instruct. You must have a different Spirit within you than I do if you think that whining about me running away and insinuating that I am not up to the challenge is gentle.

The Bible tells us what the fruits of the Spirit are, and unfortunatly, your attitude doesn't portray any of them.

I grew up a long time ago, good day Oneness.

~Lorelei

[ September 26, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Dualhunter]

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and (32) he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "(33) This is [2] My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17 NASB

God sent God to God. There's 3 persons who are God right here.

29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, '(19) HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; - Mark 12:29 NASB

There is one God who is Lord.

Given that there are 3 persons who are God and that there is only 1 God we must conclude that God is Triune.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and (32) he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "(33) This is [2] My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17 NASB

God sent God to God. There's 3 persons who are God right here.

29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, '(19) HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; - Mark 12:29 NASB

There is one God who is Lord.

Given that there are 3 persons who are God and that there is only 1 God we must conclude that God is Triune.

So what you are saying is that we have three lords?

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and (32) he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "(33) This is [2] My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17 NASB

God sent God to God. There's 3 persons who are God right here.

29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, '(19) HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; - Mark 12:29 NASB

There is one God who is Lord.

Given that there are 3 persons who are God and that there is only 1 God we must conclude that God is Triune.

So what you are saying is that we have three lords?</font>[/QUOTE]No, 1 God who is Lord eternally existing in 3 persons.

So what you are saying that 2 of the 3 don't exist?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and (32) he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "(33) This is [2] My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17 NASB

God sent God to God. There's 3 persons who are God right here.

29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, '(19) HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; - Mark 12:29 NASB

There is one God who is Lord.

Given that there are 3 persons who are God and that there is only 1 God we must conclude that God is Triune.

Lorelei, sorry about the childishness, I thought about it after I wrote it, Please forgive. I just got a little aggravated. Its over with, I feel better, sorry for the way I responded.

I have never once tried to tell you what God meant to say. But I have tried to show you what he was saying.

I have never tried to put God in a box. All I have done was point out what scripture reveals.

You say God exists in a plurality of Persons. But yet you have One God. I am trying to show you that you can’t have a God that consists of three persons and at the same time be one. If you have one person than you have 1 personality. If you have two persons then you have two personalities. If you have three persons you have three personalities and so on and so forth.

Persons is not a scriptural term to describe God. You and I are persons. Why would you want to use a human term to define a God? It would seem to me that you guys would want to say “Three separate spirits” instead of “Persons”

I will close with this:

On the contrary the bible does say that God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) The bible does say that Christ is a Spirit. (Romans 8:9) (1 Peter 1:11) and you also know the Holy Spirit to be a Spirit. (Gen. 1:2 according to Trinitarian beliefs)

But according to Scripture I can prove to you that there is only one Spirit. (Ephesians 4:4). This one scripture is in direct contradiction with the Trinity belief.

Now let me prove to you that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are that exact same Spirit.

The Father is that one Spirit.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Son is that one Spirit.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

(Paraphrased: Jesus told the disciples that he would pray that the father would send another comforter. He then goes onto explain that the world could not receive him b/c they do not see him and they do not know him. But what did Jesus say to the disciples? Jesus said you know him b/c he dwells with them. Who is dwelling with them? Jesus is! It is easy to see that Jesus is the Holy Ghost in another form. And Jesus then says that he should dwell in them. How can Jesus dwell in them? As the Holy Spirit of course! Jesus said “I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you” The only way that Jesus could have come back to them is as the Holy Ghost.)

And we know the Holy Spirit to be the Holy Spirit.
John 14:26

So now my questions is do we now have three separate persons living inside of us? No! We have the one True God who has revealed himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost living inside of us today.

Maybe you would like to start where Lorelie finished? If you would like you may answer the questions that I asked Lorelie.

Dualhunter, I look forward to the opportunity to sharing with you what the bible teaches on the Oneness of God. Above I have shown you in scripture that The Father and Son are the exact same person as the Holy Ghost. If you would wish I can show you in full detail using nothing but the word of God to show you that the Son is the Father in the Flesh.

God bless

Brian

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and (32) he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "(33) This is [2] My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17 NASB

God sent God to God. There's 3 persons who are God right here.

29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, '(19) HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; - Mark 12:29 NASB

There is one God who is Lord.

Given that there are 3 persons who are God and that there is only 1 God we must conclude that God is Triune.

So what you are saying is that we have three lords?</font>[/QUOTE]No, 1 God who is Lord eternally existing in 3 persons.

So what you are saying that 2 of the 3 don't exist?</font>[/QUOTE]No Sir, I am not saying that at all.

All I am saying is that they do not exist as an "US"

They are the exact same person.

See previous post.

God bless

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

Apology accepted.

One last note: You brought up part of this passage, I just wanted to share it in it's full context.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit- just as you were called to one hope when you were called- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
NIV

Instead of saying there is One Father, who is the Spirit and the Lord Jesus, he eloquently stated it in a way that revealed the distinct separate persons of God, though they are indeed ONE. (He also said there is One Baptism, but that is another topic )

In this same book, Paul wrote:

Eph 1:17
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
NIV

I pray this very same prayer for you!

A final farewell.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Oneness,

Apology accepted.

One last note: You brought up part of this passage, I just wanted to share it in it's full context.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit- just as you were called to one hope when you were called- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
NIV

Instead of saying there is One Father, who is the Spirit and the Lord Jesus, he eloquently stated it in a way that revealed the distinct separate persons of God, though they are indeed ONE. (He also said there is One Baptism, but that is another topic )

In this same book, Paul wrote:

Eph 1:17
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
NIV

I pray this very same prayer for you!

A final farewell.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]And I get a little wiser and I get a new revelaion everyday as a result of your prayers. Thanks Gorgeous

I had to smile when I thought about it, but the revelation I get only shows me there is on God.

Thanks again.

 

[ONENESS]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit- just as you were called to one hope when you were called- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
NIV

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Instead of saying there is One Father, who is the Spirit and the Lord Jesus, he eloquently stated it in a way that revealed the distinct separate persons of God, though they are indeed ONE. (He also said there is One Baptism, but that is another topic )

Lorelie I could see how you may think that this is is showing that there are three distinct persons but we have to reason with our logic a little.

You take Eph 4:5 One Lord to mean Jesus.

You dont have to answer but that would take us back to the questions "How many Lords do we have"?

Could you please tell me which Lord this is Speaking of? Is it the Father or Son?

Genesis 6:3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

And there are literally hundreds more. I was going to post them LOL, but I thought it would take up to much space.

It is easy to see that in Eph. the writer was not trying to seperate each one. But he was showing you that God was absolutly one like you and I are one.

Here are a few more

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

I would assume you would say that "The Lord God" is the Father and "The Lamb" is Jesus.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our lord Jesus Christ.

Again, how many Lords are there?

And there are so many more verses that i won't even try to post.

Sorry about that, i could not resist.

God bless

[ September 26, 2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
No Sir, I am not saying that at all.

All I am saying is that they do not exist as an "US"

They are the exact same person.

See previous post.

God bless

Speaking of "US":

26 Then God said, "Let (31) Us make (32) man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (33) rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 God created man (34) in His own image, in the image of God He created him; (35) male and female He created them. - Genesis 1:26-27 NASB emphasis added

 

[Dualhunter]

Care to comment on who was in attendance at Jesus' baptism?

 

[Chemnitz]

You see, oneness we have answered your questions numerous times. And each time you fall back to arguments previously addressed. It is very tiresome when we have to rehash everything every other post ie your continuing statement of do we believe in three gods or three lords, no matter how many times we tell you that we believe in one God. It has gotten very old, it is almost like we are debating with a tract. I have challenged you to actually take the time to read material on the Doctrine of the Trinity written by Trinitarians(such as The Living God by Thomas Oden or A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward Koehler) rather than relying on what anti-Trinitarians tell you we believe.

The oneness theology just doesn't come close to hacking it as a plausable doctrine because it falls apart at the cross where it denies the two natures of Christ, by just leaving a flesh suit hanging on the cross.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
You see, oneness we have answered your questions numerous times. And each time you fall back to arguments previously addressed. It is very tiresome when we have to rehash everything every other post ie your continuing statement of do we believe in three gods or three lords, no matter how many times we tell you that we believe in one God. It has gotten very old, it is almost like we are debating with a tract. I have challenged you to actually take the time to read material on the Doctrine of the Trinity written by Trinitarians(such as The Living God by Thomas Oden or A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward Koehler) rather than relying on what anti-Trinitarians tell you we believe.

The oneness theology just doesn't come close to hacking it as a plausable doctrine because it falls apart at the cross where it denies the two natures of Christ, by just leaving a flesh suit hanging on the cross.

Chemts you are right I do rehash a lot of things. Its only b/c I dont understand how it works.

If you say that the Father is Lord, and you say that the Holy Ghost is Lord, and you say that the Son is Lord, You now have One God three seperate Lords, When you seperate God into persons you are stating that there are three diffrent einities are you not?

How can the bible be correct when it says that there is only One Lord, when in fact you seperate him into three?

Lets hit it at a personal level. WHen you pray to the Father are you just praying to the father? When you Pray to the Son are you just praying to the son? When you pray to the Holy Ghost are you praying just to the HOly Ghost?

Things like this are what I have trouble understanding. I have read books by many trinitarians, I have heard trinitarians preachers preach More than you know. And on the other hand I have heard many trinitarian preachers who have been given the revelation that the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ.

They have explained their views and I can understand what they say. But once God gives you a solid revelation, there is no changeing that. I have been many nights in my closet praying to God and Talking with him about various things on what he intended for me to know.

I have prayed about this oneness doctrine, I have fasted about this oneness doctrine. And everytime I do I get a comformation.

Chemitz I have alot of questions I still would like to ask you that I have never asked before. But alot of time when I start asking questions you guys have to ask me one in return and then say you will not answer mine until i answer yours.

By that time i have forgotten what I have asked you and so on and so forth. After I finish Debating with dualhunter, i would like to offer you the oppertunity to let me question you without any interruptions.

But thats only if you are up for it.

God bless

 

[Chemnitz]

Things like this are what I have trouble understanding. I have read books by many trinitarians, I have heard trinitarians preachers preach More than you know. And on the other hand I have heard many trinitarian preachers who have been given the revelation that the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ.

Then why do you soundlike an anti-Trinitarian tract? Or could it be you never read anything by a credible writer. Your statement is a loaded statement it doesn't necessarly mean you read about the Trinity.

Lets hit it at a personal level. WHen you pray to the Father are you just praying to the father? When you Pray to the Son are you just praying to the son? When you pray to the Holy Ghost are you praying just to the HOly Ghost?

To the Father, through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit.

I have prayed about this oneness doctrine, I have fasted about this oneness doctrine. And everytime I do I get a comformation.

I am very reluctant to take somebody's personal revelation on a doctrine that is so contrary to Scripture. Sure it's God your hearing?

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
And on the other hand I have heard many trinitarian preachers who have been given the revelation that the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ.

That's no surprise, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are each 100% God, not 33% of God. The 3 are 1, not the 3 thirds are 1, not the 1 is 1, not the 3 are 3, the 3 are 1, triune.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Things like this are what I have trouble understanding. I have read books by many trinitarians, I have heard trinitarians preachers preach More than you know. And on the other hand I have heard many trinitarian preachers who have been given the revelation that the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ.

Then why do you soundlike an anti-Trinitarian tract? Or could it be you never read anything by a credible writer. Your statement is a loaded statement it doesn't necessarly mean you read about the Trinity.

Lets hit it at a personal level. WHen you pray to the Father are you just praying to the father? When you Pray to the Son are you just praying to the son? When you pray to the Holy Ghost are you praying just to the HOly Ghost?

To the Father, through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit.

I have prayed about this oneness doctrine, I have fasted about this oneness doctrine. And everytime I do I get a comformation.

I am very reluctant to take somebody's personal revelation on a doctrine that is so contrary to Scripture. Sure it's God your hearing?</font>[/QUOTE]Chemtiz, are there three enities (sp?) in heaven?

I dont know what you call credible but I have read books by Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, And Billy Graham.

I have spoken with you, Lorelie, Don, and others who seem to view the eact things as these gentlemen. And I am sorry, I just do not agree with it.

If you had one scripture saying that the apostles baptized with the titles, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, I might have a chance at believing what you have to say. But no where does it say that.

ANd I know that you will try to say that no one was baptized directly in the Name of Jesus. But I have shown you where they have.

Would you care to comment on the question about 3 Lords?

God bless