Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Hey MEE~long time, no see...but I think about ya all the time!

Just Sunday when I read in John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me" I wondered, how on earth do they(meaning you guys) not understand what this means?

Well, just wanted to check-in, say "howdy", and let ya know I'm still around!

Hey Granny, looks like you found the fountain of youth

just kidding.

Just Sunday when I read in John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me" I wondered, how on earth do they(meaning you guys) not understand what this means?

And why not go ahead and give the rest of what Jesus said? "John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."

Granny maybe you could answer this:

Who is Jesus's Father? Is it the Father or the HOly GHost?

Thanks for bringing that out Mee.

God bless you Granny.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
MEE:

I'm planning on starting a new page dealing with the teaching of the holy Trinity in the next couple of days. Please keep your eyes posted. I hope it will be helpful.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why the fuss? I thought it was too, *shruggs shoulders" Maybe its not us that faulty understand the word "person". Maybe its a trinitarian who misunderstands it.

Why the fuss, ONENESS? Because you are in reality not a CHRISTIAN - you deny God because you deny the holy Trinity. The Scriptures and Church History stand as witnesses against you in your heretical stand. I realize this probably sounds harsh, but it is, nonetheless, true.

Rev. G</font>[/QUOTE]Show me one verse that says there is a "Holy Trinity"

I can show you verse after verse that says there is only ONE GOD.

What is your defintion of persons as MEE asked? If you mean manifestations than we can agree but no where in the bible does it refer to God as Seperate Persons. The term Persons used to express the nature of God cannot be found in the bible.

Would you mind answering a few questions?

If so just tell MEE and myself who is the Father.

Is it the Father, or the Holy Ghost?

 

[GrannyGumbo]

John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."

ONENESS: Why would Jesus say this, do ya think? WHO was He talking about? HIM WHO? [In your heart, you know the answer...you've been told here many times!]

WHO do you say is Jesus's Father? When He says "I and my Father are one"...WHICH Father is He referring to?

When Jesus says "whom the Father will send in my name...WHAT Father is He referring to?

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

WHO is the Highest?...GOD

Son of WHO???...GOD, the Father.

WHO is Jesus's Father?...GOD

It is God the Father who has detemined the course of the universe in eternity; God the Son(Jesus) who as the Word brings the will of God into time, and it is the Holy Spirit who makes God's will real to man.

And not one time did I use the word Trinity.

1John2:22b~"...He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

[ October 01, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Originall
[Rev. G

Show me one verse that says there is a "Holy Trinity"

I can show you verse after verse that says there is only ONE GOD.

The term Persons used to express the nature of God cannot be found in the bible.
Oneness,
The words "Holy Trinity" does not appear in the Bible. The teaching of the Triune God does appear. We are in no way saying that there are three Gods, rather, we affirm, the teaching of scripture, that the one God manifest Himself in three Persons yet retains His Oneness.

Colossians 2:8-9 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
This verse affirms the full deity of Christ.vs8- According to Christ, He was God, He says "before Abraham was, I AM." and in another place we see Him forgive sins.Luke 5:20-21 We also have hints that Christ was Omnipresent, Nathanael under the tree- John 1:48-49 One other thing in v8, Paul says,"don't be cheated." I believe their is a blessing in this doctorine that we will not have until we accept it.
If I have misinterpreted this verse than what is your interpretation?
Blessings according to Christ...

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
[QB]Hey MEE~long time, no see...but I think about ya all the time!

Thanks Granny, I consider that a compliment. I never dreamed that I crossed your mind...way down there in the "Land of Dixie."

MEE

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."

ONENESS: Why would Jesus say this, do ya think? WHO was He talking about? HIM WHO? [In your heart, you know the answer...you've been told here many times!]

WHO do you say is Jesus's Father? When He says "I and my Father are one"...WHICH Father is He referring to?

When Jesus says "whom the Father will send in my name...WHAT Father is He referring to?

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

WHO is the Highest?...GOD

Son of WHO???...GOD, the Father.

WHO is Jesus's Father?...GOD

It is God the Father who has detemined the course of the universe in eternity; God the Son(Jesus) who as the Word brings the will of God into time, and it is the Holy Spirit who makes God's will real to man.

And not one time did I use the word Trinity.

1John2:22b~"...He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Granny, let this be written in stone from this point on. I do not deny The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I just deny that they exist in a plurality of Persons. If this is true than it goes directly againt the Oneness of God.

The bible lets us know that the father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the one God.

God does not have to split in three diffrent persons to be able to do certain things.

Gods big enough to be our Father in creation, The Son in redemption and the Holy Spirit all at the same time without haveing to be devided.

God bless

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Granny do you not belive that the Holy Ghost is the Highest?

[ October 01, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[GrannyGumbo]

ONENESS~Who did ya say is Jesus's Father??? I must've missed it!!!

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by weeping prophet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

Originall
[Rev. G

Show me one verse that says there is a "Holy Trinity"

I can show you verse after verse that says there is only ONE GOD.

The term Persons used to express the nature of God cannot be found in the bible.
Oneness,
The words "Holy Trinity" does not appear in the Bible. The teaching of the Triune God does appear. We are in no way saying that there are three Gods, rather, we affirm, the teaching of scripture, that the one God manifest Himself in three Persons yet retains His Oneness.

Colossians 2:8-9 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
This verse affirms the full deity of Christ.vs8- According to Christ, He was God, He says "before Abraham was, I AM." and in another place we see Him forgive sins.Luke 5:20-21 We also have hints that Christ was Omnipresent, Nathanael under the tree- John 1:48-49 One other thing in v8, Paul says,"don't be cheated." I believe their is a blessing in this doctorine that we will not have until we accept it.
If I have misinterpreted this verse than what is your interpretation?
Blessings according to Christ...</font>

The words "Holy Trinity" does not appear in the Bible. The teaching of the Triune God does appear. We are in no way saying that there are three Gods, rather, we affirm, the teaching of scripture, that the one God manifest Himself in three Persons yet retains His Oneness.

The teaching of the triune God does not appear. Do you think something so important as the Trinity would be left out of scripture?

God never intended for us to worship three seperate People.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Yes it does affirm his diety, but it also lets us know that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all found in that ONE PERSON.

God bless

[ October 01, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
ONENESS~Who did ya say is Jesus's Father??? I must've missed it!!!

Sorry about that did not know you asked that. Please forgive me.

Jehovah is the Father.

 

[ONENESS]

So Granny do you believe that the Holy Ghost is not the highest?

[ October 01, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
ONENESS~Who did ya say is Jesus's Father??? I must've missed it!!!

Sorry about that did not know you asked that. Please forgive me.

Jehovah is the Father.</font>[/QUOTE]Child, you do amaze me sometimes. Loved it! Give me a "high five!"

MEE

 

[weeping prophet]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

God never intended for us to worship three seperate People.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Yes it does affirm his diety, but it also lets us know that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all found in that ONE PERSON.

God bless
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]No, God never intended for us to worship three seperate People. He does intend for us to worship Him in all of His manifestations. The People are not seperate, They just have seperate works and offices.
We have agreed that Jesus is God. Now look
Genesis1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. From this verse we see that God has a Spirit, right? You believe the Trinity, you just don't like to call it "The Trinity.". God bless.

 

[DHK]

Isa. 43:10,11
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
--Know and understand that there is but one God, one saviour. Who is He?

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is this child that will be born, the "son" to be given? His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, "The mighty God," Say that again?? THE MIGHTY GOD! Who is this child? Who is this son? What other name does he have? "The everlasting Father" What did you say? You heard me right the first time. THE EVERLASTING FATHER! The Son is called "the everlasting Father!" He is called: "the mighty God, the everlasting Father!" And He is called "the Prince of Peace;" He is the only one that can bring peace to this sin-sick world. Why? Because HE IS GOD, and there is none other beside Him. Not only does this verse show that Jesus Christ is God, but by calling Christ the Father it affirms that both the Father and the Son are unified together in the one triune Godhead.
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by weeping prophet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

God never intended for us to worship three separate People.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Yes it does affirm his deity, but it also lets us know that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all found in that ONE PERSON.

God bless
</font>[/QUOTE]No, God never intended for us to worship three separate People. He does intend for us to worship Him in all of His manifestations. The People are not separate, They just have separate works and offices.
We have agreed that Jesus is God. Now look
Genesis1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. From this verse we see that God has a Spirit, right? You believe the Trinity, you just don't like to call it "The Trinity.". God bless.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

God never intended for us to worship three separate People. He does intend for us to worship Him in all of His manifestations. The People are not separate, They just have separate works and offices.

Prophet, how are you? I liked your response. I totally agree with that. But do you think that we are to worship them separatly? When we worship Jesus we are giveing Glory to the One true God b/c he manifested himself in the Name and Person of Jesus Christ.(Col 3:17)

Genesis1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. From this verse we see that God has a Spirit, right? You believe the Trinity, you just don't like to call it "The Trinity.". God bless.[/QB]

Now here is where we bump bellies a little. When you read this you take it to mean that God had a separate Spirit. Do you see how this splits God.

John 4:24 says that God is a Spirit. And we know that to be true. And anyone who reads that verse will more than likely agree that it is referring to the Father.

The bible says in Romans 8:9 that we must have the Spirit of Christ or we are none of his.

If all three are God and all three are spirits would it not be enough to conclude that the "Spirit of God" Is none other than Jehovah or the Only One True God himself?

There is no separation needed to understand how our God can do all these things without having to stop doing something else.

Thanks alot

[ October 02, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

Isa. 43:10,11
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
--Know and understand that there is but one God, one saviour. Who is He?

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is this child that will be born, the "son" to be given? His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, "The mighty God," Say that again?? THE MIGHTY GOD! Who is this child? Who is this son? What other name does he have? "The everlasting Father" What did you say? You heard me right the first time. THE EVERLASTING FATHER! The Son is called "the everlasting Father!" He is called: "the mighty God, the everlasting Father!" And He is called "the Prince of Peace;" He is the only one that can bring peace to this sin-sick world. Why? Because HE IS GOD, and there is none other beside Him. Not only does this verse show that Jesus Christ is God, but by calling Christ the Father it affirms that both the Father and the Son are unified together in the one triune Godhead.
DHK

Isa. 43:10,11
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
--Know and understand that there is but one God, one saviour. Who is He?

Jehovah.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is this child that will be born, the "son" to be given? His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, "The mighty God," Say that again?? THE MIGHTY GOD! Who is this child? Who is this son? What other name does he have? "The everlasting Father" What did you say? You heard me right the first time. THE EVERLASTING FATHER! The Son is called "the everlasting Father!" He is called: "the mighty God, the everlasting Father!" And He is called "the Prince of Peace;" He is the only one that can bring peace to this sin-sick world. Why? Because HE IS GOD, and there is none other beside Him. Not only does this verse show that Jesus Christ is God, but by calling Christ the Father it affirms that both the Father and the Son are unified together in the one triune Godhead.

The Child is Jehovah. And when I say Jehovah, I am not talking about another part of Jehovah. I am talking about the One true undivided God.

Because HE IS GOD, and there is none other beside Him. Not only does this verse show that Jesus Christ is God, but by calling Christ the Father it affirms that both the Father and the Son are unified together in the one triune Godhead.

DHK, you are so, so close to understanding this.

Jesus is God, and there is no one beside him. You said “By calling Christ the Father it affirms that both the Father and the Son are unified together in the one triune Godhead”. Why would you not be just as comfortable as saying that these two are the exact same person as the scripture is trying to let us see.

When you can understand what I am trying to point out you can see why no one in the New Testament were Baptized any other way than in the Name of Jesus Christ. After you see that they are all the same person you can understand what Jesus was saying when he said “Baptize them in the NAME of the Father, AND OF the Son, AND OF the Holy Ghost.

God Bless

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
Rev. G, I know that this was in response to "ONENESS" but maybe you could explain the meaning of "person" as concerning the godhead. I have yet to understand what the Trinitarian is meaning when it comes to saying that there are three "persons" in the godhead.

I have mentioned this before in another thread. When we use the term "person" we mean "personal" not "human". There are not three separate people that make up one God. But our One God has 3 distinct "something"(whatever term suits you best) that each have their own role in creation, in our salvation, and in all things. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit, but they all make up One God.

Originally posted by MEE:
I have a quote, from Billy Graham that says he can't explain it, but just accepts what he thinks the "mystery" means.

So you also limit God? You think that God must be definable in human terms or it is a false God???

Can you truly understand and explain how God is omnipotent, omnisceince and omniprescence (sp?)? How can you explain these things if you have not experienced them? Your only explanation is the same as ours. "He is God, so He can do it".

Can you truly explain how God gave His only Son to die for the sins of the world? Would you give your child to save the life of a child molester or murderer??? You know it's true, the Bible tells us these things, but we can not comprehend in our human mind how it can be so, except that He is God and with Him all things are possible.

It is the same with our belief. We read the Bible. It tells us that there is One God. It tells us that Jesus is God. It tells us that Jesus is the "Son of God". That Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. It tells us that the Holy Spirit testifies, not of himself, but of the Son and is sent, not by himself, but by the Father. It says that the Father loves the Son.

Unless you believe in the trinity you must either believe that there is more than one God or that Jesus is NOT God.

I can't explain in human terms how the two can be true, but I know what the Bible says, and unless you want to ignore half of it, you must believe it or call it a liar.

I hope this helps explain it a little better.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
Rev. G, I know that this was in response to "ONENESS" but maybe you could explain the meaning of "person" as concerning the godhead. I have yet to understand what the Trinitarian is meaning when it comes to saying that there are three "persons" in the godhead.

I have mentioned this before in another thread. When we use the term "person" we mean "personal" not "human". There are not three separate people that make up one God. But our One God has 3 distinct "something"(whatever term suits you best) that each have their own role in creation, in our salvation, and in all things. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit, but they all make up One God.

Originally posted by MEE:
I have a quote, from Billy Graham that says he can't explain it, but just accepts what he thinks the "mystery" means.

So you also limit God? You think that God must be definable in human terms or it is a false God???

Can you truly understand and explain how God is omnipotent, omnisceince and omniprescence (sp?)? How can you explain these things if you have not experienced them? Your only explanation is the same as ours. "He is God, so He can do it".

Can you truly explain how God gave His only Son to die for the sins of the world? Would you give your child to save the life of a child molester or murderer??? You know it's true, the Bible tells us these things, but we can not comprehend in our human mind how it can be so, except that He is God and with Him all things are possible.

It is the same with our belief. We read the Bible. It tells us that there is One God. It tells us that Jesus is God. It tells us that Jesus is the "Son of God". That Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. It tells us that the Holy Spirit testifies, not of himself, but of the Son and is sent, not by himself, but by the Father. It says that the Father loves the Son.

Unless you believe in the trinity you must either believe that there is more than one God or that Jesus is NOT God.

I can't explain in human terms how the two can be true, but I know what the Bible says, and unless you want to ignore half of it, you must believe it or call it a liar.

I hope this helps explain it a little better.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]I thought you were through with this discussion? just teasing

Can you truly explain how God gave His only Son to die for the sins of the world?

Of course we can.

If you Loved something so much would you send your son to die for someone? NO! Of course you would not.

What would you do? Would you not go do it yourself? Thats what I would do.
And thats exactly what God did.

God did not, I repeat did not send another person to come die for our sins. God simply manifested himself as a human and came down here on this earth and died for us.

The bible says in 1 John 3:16 that God laid down his life. Its the same God, Same Person, as John 3:16. And the Son in John 3:16 is the Same God, Same Person, that spoke to Moses, Abraham, Noah, and the Prophets.

There were not three seperate people, persons, that were there whispering in each ear with one saying one thing and the other saying another thing.

They are all the same Person. They are all the Same God. They are not devided, nor are they seperated.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Was there another person beside god? NO. God was the only one.

God bless

[ October 02, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

sorry about this, I meant to edit my above post and hit "quote" by accident. So if you just read my post above in the last five mins make sure you saw a big smile beside my first comment.

God bless

[ October 02, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[GrannyGumbo]

God simply manifested himself as a human and came down here on this earth and died for us.[ONENESS]

Were the heavens then left unattended?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
God simply manifested himself as a human and came down here on this earth and died for us.[ONENESS]

Were the heavens then left unattended?

LOL, Thats a very good question Granny,

NO

Thats the awesome part about God, He can do all these things without haveing to limit himself in one place.

Now as a Man, That man could only be in one place. But the Eternal Spirit that dwells inside of that Body is capable of being everywhere without haveing to stop being God in another place.

This goes back to the statement earlier.

If Someone in Germany, Africa, Asia, And Europe are all haveing visions from God or a Miricle is takeing place in all of these four locations, And all at the Exact same time. Does that mean that there are four persons of God? One for the vision or mircle in Europe, one person for Africa, One Person for Germany etc.

NO! not at all.

God can do all these things without be seperating.

Godbless